104 réponses à ce sujet

[shootist70]

I like the DA series, but whenever I play them there's always something...missing. Some vital ingredient that's essential to this type of drama.

Sure, we've got the 'world-in-need', and the usual Big Bad Guy that needs bringing down a peg or two, so far so formulaic. And that's fine. You can get away with formulaic as long as you personalise it - make it an emotional investment for the audience. It usually happens in this type of genre.

But the DA series doesn't ask me to emotionally invest enough, it only takes me a little way in. As decent fantasy writers know, it's not enough to ask us to invest ourselves in fictional lands, conflicting empires and 'Dark Lords', or whatever. Those things are old hat, We've seen them a million times before. The only thing they should serve as is the stage and background for more familiar, intimate, human conflicts (and by 'intimate' I don't mean purely sexual).

I want romantic elements that are intertwined within the whole plot arc, and actually DRIVE it. I want love interests that form a part of the entire plot through to the end. I want conflict resolution with LI's to be as important to plot progression as much as killing bad guys is. I want interaction with LI's to be within every step of the plot elements, and oppostion/assistance from them to be integral to the plot direction.

Basically, I want a greater sense of catharsis from conflict resolution because it involves emotive character action as much as it does cleaving skulls in half. I want drama as well as action, because action without all this is not drama.

Of course, there's nothing new in this suggestion, it's been essential to genres like fantasy, space-opera, and thriller since those things began. Think Conan the Barbarian without...that blonde woman, or The Bourne Series without Marie, or Inception without the dead chick. Ancient Greek and Roman epic, which started this whole thing, is littered with it. Who launched a thousand ships?

Modifié par shootist70, 14 février 2013 - 06:09 .

[Face of Evil]

Her name was Valeria, child. Now shall I tell you of the Riddle of Steel? It's the least I could do.

Modifié par Face of Evil, 14 février 2013 - 06:14 .

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

I think they should make less of the romance, and focus on giving us a strong story.

[Dave of Canada]

DinoSteve wrote...

I think they should make less of the romance, and focus on giving us a strong story.

They could potentially intertwine if done right, Alistair and Morrigan's romances intertwined with the main plot without making it overbearing and feeling as if they were necessary. Romance is a good way to manipulate the player's feelings and can create drama if properly used for more than just pandering.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 14 février 2013 - 06:34 .

[Brahmvus]

no. romance in games is pointless imagine all the people touching themselves over leliana it kinda makes me sick. video game romance is dead flat and kind of a joke, also if everyone can fall in love with u no matter who they are like da2 wats the point sleep with that ugly gypsy women then marry anders bla bla. In both games i would have rather married my dog it would have been more realistic. i mean yea u go out wiv morgana than she pulls u off into a mirror. woooo, forget the romance il stik to prostitutes thx

[Face of Evil]

Brahmvus wrote...

no. romance in games is pointless imagine all the people touching themselves over leliana it kinda makes me sick.

Oh, I would never do that while playing a video game. I need both hands to wrap a belt around my neck and then tie it to a nearby doorknob.

Modifié par Face of Evil, 14 février 2013 - 06:56 .

[shootist70]

Brahmvus wrote...

no. romance in games is pointless imagine all the people touching themselves over leliana it kinda makes me sick. video game romance is dead flat and kind of a joke, also if everyone can fall in love with u no matter who they are like da2 wats the point sleep with that ugly gypsy women then marry anders bla bla. In both games i would have rather married my dog it would have been more realistic. i mean yea u go out wiv morgana than she pulls u off into a mirror. woooo, forget the romance il stik to prostitutes thx

Lol! Funny response, but misses the point.

Being that little bit scared of romance in games is kinda like being afraid of it in just about every form of drama and literature going. Like I said in the OP, love/lust/passion has been driving non-romantic genres since those things began. That's because it's all very human. The DA series needs a greater sense of involvement in it to step up the drama, imo.

[Brahmvus]

no cos in a film angelina joie doesnt look into the camera and go i love u kiss kiss and then it doesnt show me sexing her. Well maybe a film like that exists but its not widely sold. Game romance is creepy in a game where u invest as the main character being a projection of urself in the game world. If marcus wants to sex anya in gears of war fine when i make a character in da i am that caracter. fable is easier to live wiv than da

[Althix]

Bioware just make a datesim already with elves and dwarfs. And make DLCs with new LI and romance options.

Modifié par secretsandlies, 14 février 2013 - 07:48 .

[shootist70]

secretsandlies wrote...

Bioware just make a datesim already with elves and dwarfs. And make DLCs with new LI and romance options.

The 'datesim' response is a bit of a cliche. You seem to be forgetting thousands of years of dramatic convention. Video games need to grow out of their adolescent fixation with driving plot through so much 'action', and start driving their plots more through emotive character interaction. Something that gives all the gun and sword play more emotive involvement than 'get the bad guy(s)/save the whatever...'

The industry has been 'growing up' in this aspect over the past few years, but I'd like to see Bioware pushing that particular envelope more.

Edit: Also worth bearing in mind, 'romance' doesn't have to be all love, puppies and teenage vampires making out. It can be as dark and destructive as you like.

Modifié par shootist70, 14 février 2013 - 07:56 .

[wright1978]

I'm all for companion to have their own arcs and for those to be intergrated into the plot where it makes sense with possible extra little touches if they are romanced. Isabela into the Qunari storyline in DA2 is a great example. You don'thave to romance her to experience the content but i certainly felt my roleplaying of my character's response was more personal given his feelings for her.

I certainly don't want a defined singular LI which would be required for the story to revolve completely around the romance. I want choice to be there.

[Brahmvus]

NOTE character interavtion in game is boring u fool if a game was just talking who wuld play give me the dragon killing not idiots talking in rooms. go play monkey island u ignoramus, o pretionses

[Medhia Nox]

I would either like the LI removed altogether - or integrated deeper into the story (and yes, I'd like only one flavor for each group: gay male, lesbian, straight male, straight female). I'd also like the love interest to not be a party member (at least potentially) and to be more of an equal - not the usual Bioware sycophants.

[shootist70]

wright1978 wrote...

I certainly don't want a defined singular LI which would be required for the story to revolve completely around the romance. I want choice to be there.

That's a good point. The only way around it would be that whatever LI you chose they would be launched along the same plot arc, intertwined with the main plot, and that drives it.

But I guess that would take some of the individual 'feel' out of each character. There would need to be some tailoring done for each one and how they interacted with/responded to that same plot.

[Giltspur]

I probably agree with you but am not sure exactly what you have in mind.

With KOTOR, I only played a male, Bastila's importantly integrated into the story.  She's involved in your resscue; you're involved in hers.  She's involved in a plot twist and later in an important decision.  The Alistair romance is importantly tied to the Redcliffe, Landsmeet and Archdemon sections; Morrigan, to the Dark Ritual; Anders, to the events in Act III; Isabela, to the Qunari in Act II.  While the romance may not drive the plot they are intertwined and add to it.

Hmm, driving the conflict.  Well, normally romances involve someone wanting a person they can't have either because they're not physically present (kidnapped and imprisoned) or because they're mismatched causing the pursued to reject the pursuer initially.  In Dragon Age, you're together with the person usually, and the romances tend to be pretty easy: say nice things.  So I wonder where the conflict would come in in any way greater than what you already get in the intertwined stories like Isabela or Alistair have.  (I'm thinking out loud to try and figure out your suggestion by the way.  It's what I do.)

Okay, I can't quite figure it out.  I'll back away and imagine what was closest.  In DAO, I had a lot of imagined conflict with Morrigan.  My character romanced her despite basically disagreeing with every suggestion she ever made.  So in a sense, it seemed like there was a conflict there that was always under the surface. (Morrigan: Leave that baby to die in the woods.  You're doing that weak, mewling thing a favor!  Warden: Uh, no.  /saves baby.  Morrigan: /'sighs.)  But again that was in my head in reaction to her reactions.  So in that sense I supplied conflict that I worked through outside of game.  And certainly I'd like the LI's to defy me, disagree with me and argue with me in game.  And I wouldn't conversations like BG2 where there's only one right answer, it seems.  I'd like conflict to be survivable.  Ultimately a game ideally has multiple ways to solve its conflicts.  That's true of combat certainly.  And I'd like that to be true for conversations as well, romantically charged or not.  Though romances seem like a natural place to put such a thing.

Now in the past when I've suggested that it would good to see interpersonal relationships have conflicts that you have to struggle through or have seen others suggest it, I've seen a lot of resistance.  I don't claim to understand that resistance just yet.

Modifié par Giltspur, 14 février 2013 - 08:11 .

[Fredward]

Oh look. It's this thread. Again. <_<

[riverbanks]

shootist70 wrote...

I want romantic elements that are intertwined within the whole plot arc, and actually DRIVE it. I want love interests that form a part of the entire plot through to the end. I want conflict resolution with LI's to be as important to plot progression as much as killing bad guys is. I want interaction with LI's to be within every step of the plot elements, and oppostion/assistance from them to be integral to the plot direction. 

Ok, but remember this is a game where you can choose who to romance from a pool of various candidates. To have everything you want, to make the LI drive the whole story forward, you'd have to either settle for a single love interest the plot can be written fully around; or a bunch of generic cardboard love interests who have no discernible personalities, backgrounds or branching romance paths of their own. If you write the main plot around the romance, you can't have different love interests who represent different romance tropes, because BW will certainly not write four-five different main plots to acommodate four-five different romances.

Think back to DA2 and pretend the whole outcome of the main plot depended heavily on interactions with your love interest. Do you really think the exact same story could be told out of such different people as Isabela, Merrill, Fenris, Sebastian and Anders? If interaction with your lover was integral to the plot, do you think playing the story with Merrill driving the plot would end up in the same direction as one with Sebastian? Or that a game based on Fenris' personal conflicts would end up the same as Anders'? You'd be writing five completely different games in one there, and ain't no studio got time or money for that. Any studio writing a driven-by-the-LI story will give you one single canonical LI who's integral to the plot instead, and call that a day. (aka. Final Fantasy, The Witcher)

Having the love interest more involved or giving the romances more depth is always a good idea, but making the plot depend on your romance is unfeasible.

[Althix]

Look i don't want kill the bad guy or save whatever just to date some companion because of some illusion of emotive involvement.

Romances is a fanservice - pure and simple as it is. If romances is part of the game - fine. But i don't want it to be more important that main plot it self. Or combat or characters development or even illusion of choices that matters.

Let say if you would name your topic "make more deep and interesting characters for DA3, with intriguing subplots arcs for companions" it would be better than "romances".

As for cliche - look at DA3 forum first page.

Modifié par secretsandlies, 14 février 2013 - 08:31 .

[shootist70]

Giltspur wrote...

I probably agree with you but am not sure exactly what you have in mind.

Some good thinking, Gitspur, you're basically onto what I'm driving at.

I'll try and describe it in terms of a couple of obvious examples. Take The Bourne series: It's Marie's very negative reaction to Jason's discovery that he's an assassin that helps to enforce his decision to reject his past. It's that that makes it all the more important for him to force a confrontation with his bosses, Treadstone, and bring about a resolution.

Ok, Marie is never really developed in depth before she dies, but the idea is strongly there: driving the whole conflict through very personal themes. The Marie/Jason dynamic in the first movie is the most important element in setting up the whole trilogy.

And then there's Avatar. It's obvious that the protaganist has to win over the blue chick before he can ever defeat the bad guys. It's the romance that drives the conflict more than the evil industrialists, and they're there just as a theme for final resolution and a good ol' final battle sequence.

[shootist70]

riverbanks wrote...

Think back to DA2 and pretend the whole outcome of the main plot depended heavily on interactions with your love interest. Do you really think the exact same story could be told out of such different people as Isabela, Merrill, Fenris, Sebastian and Anders? If interaction with your lover was integral to the plot, do you think playing the story with Merrill driving the plot would end up in the same direction as one with Sebastian? Or that a game based on Fenris' personal conflicts would end up the same as Anders'? You'd be writing five completely different games in one there, and ain't no studio got time or money for that. Any studio writing a driven-by-the-LI story will give you one single canonical LI who's integral to the plot instead, and call that a day. (aka. Final Fantasy, The Witcher)

Having the love interest more involved or giving the romances more depth is always a good idea, but making the plot depend on your romance is unfeasible.

I disagree. Think about it. In DA games you pretty much play through the same singular plot arc, with LI's having little impact on it, in DA2 especially.

Yet BW are the ones that are always banging on about meaningful choices. And I don't mean a whole myriad of options. As I said to somebody earlier, you could personalise each LI's reactions/responses to the same plot arc. That would be good, but still not have a whole lot of meaning there.

Both the DA games and BW games have had a largely meaningless alignment system, which is meant to lend more to duality of character conflict than an old D&D legacy. Yet even that has little impact on plot  - there was no arc for each as there should have been.

If the LI you choose, and the dynamic they place on you, and your interaction with them, could be part of each one of two paths, that would be something in itself.

Modifié par shootist70, 14 février 2013 - 08:56 .

[Althix]

oh god. why LI? why not just concerned friend? why it always should be LI?

[Renmiri1]

Urgh..

Fable 2 ? With it's dead bay in a crib being kept for whoever knows why ?

There some sick people on the net. Sheesh!

[Wulfram]

I think the ratio of romance stuff to non-romance stuff with companions is about right at the moment.

Both could really do with having more - but then I kind of do want to turn this into "talking to companions:the game" - but I wouldn't want to cut either in favour of the other.

Modifié par Wulfram, 14 février 2013 - 09:33 .