104 réponses à ce sujet

[Sharn01]

secretsandlies wrote...

Look i don't want kill the bad guy or save whatever just to date some companion because of some illusion of emotive involvement.

Romances is a fanservice - pure and simple as it is. If romances is part of the game - fine. But i don't want it to be more important that main plot it self. Or combat or characters development or even illusion of choices that matters.

Let say if you would name your topic "make more deep and interesting characters for DA3, with intriguing subplots arcs for companions" it would be better than "romances".

As for cliche - look at DA3 forum first page.

I am not agreeing with the OP that the romance needs to be as important as he wants it.  But having a romance that does grow and makes a difference to the story falls into the same category that you support called "Choices that matter, or at least the illusion thereof."

I think a lot of this stems from the desire for people who take the time to get involved in a romance to give it more meaning then a few throw away lines of dialogue and a silly sex scene.

Modifié par Sharn01, 19 février 2013 - 09:37 .

[daaaav]

It would seem that gaming as a whole needs to better understand and articulate why the ways sexuality and romance are presented attract allegations of "Twilightness" and fan service.

Comments such as "I don't want romance, I just want a strong plot" and "I don't think that romance should be more important than the main plot" entirely miss the point of literature, story telling and and the human experience. It is hard to adequately engage the reader or player with characters who are motivated solely by grand issues such as saving / conquering the world. It sounds ridiculous I know, but all you need to do is examine the world wide apathy regarding climate change to see the truth of it. Whats more, Bioware appear to understand this since Mordin explains it quite well in Mass Effect 2 when he reveals that he fights for his favorite nephew, not to save the galaxy because the galaxy is too big and impersonal.

In my opinion, Bioware need to move away from the gimmicky nature of the romance options (dialogue, dialogue, dialogue, you win sex scene) and further intertwine them with the main story. Yes, there are challenges presented by the choices that players demand but I believe that Bioware are in a position to meet them. I am however discouraged by David Gaider admitting that he would prefer to story tell without romance at all... I don't understand how this would work with a story like Dragon Age. The type of story telling in Dragon Age is certainly influenced by epics such as the Iliad and Odyssey. We (or I) engage with those characters and their reasons for fighting, suffering and struggling not because of some need to see Troy fall or Greece become a world power, but because of the interplay between characters. Who do you identify with? Agamemnon the callous one dimensional conqueror? Or characters like Achilles, Hector or Odyseus who have more depth generated by more personal motivations?

Stories work best when they are focused on the relationships between characters. Whether they are companions, rivals, nemeses or lovers. I respect that certain players do not want romance in their games and I also respectfully and strongly disagree with them. I believe that it would be an unforgivable step backwards if gaming were to relegate an entire sphere of human experience to what currently amounts to as shallow mini games...

[daaaav]

krul2k wrote...

good valid points daaaaaaaaav, wish i could type lol

Don't worry... 9/10 times I type gobeldeygook.

[spirosz]

daaaav wrote...

It would seem that gaming as a whole needs to better understand and articulate why the ways sexuality and romance are presented attract allegations of "Twilightness" and fan service.

Comments such as "I don't want romance, I just want a strong plot" and "I don't think that romance should be more important than the main plot" entirely miss the point of literature, story telling and and the human experience. It is hard to adequately engage the reader or player with characters who are motivated solely by grand issues such as saving / conquering the world. It sounds ridiculous I know, but all you need to do is examine the world wide apathy regarding climate change to see the truth of it. Whats more, Bioware appear to understand this since Mordin explains it quite well in Mass Effect 2 when he reveals that he fights for his favorite nephew, not to save the galaxy because the galaxy is too big and impersonal.

In my opinion, Bioware need to move away from the gimmicky nature of the romance options (dialogue, dialogue, dialogue, you win sex scene) and further intertwine them with the main story. Yes, there are challenges presented by the choices that players demand but I believe that Bioware are in a position to meet them. I am however discouraged by David Gaider admitting that he would prefer to story tell without romance at all... I don't understand how this would work with a story like Dragon Age. The type of story telling in Dragon Age is certainly influenced by epics such as the Iliad and Odyssey. We (or I) engage with those characters and their reasons for fighting, suffering and struggling not because of some need to see Troy fall or Greece become a world power, but because of the interplay between characters. Who do you identify with? Agamemnon the callous one dimensional conqueror? Or characters like Achilles, Hector or Odyseus who have more depth generated by more personal motivations?

Stories work best when they are focused on the relationships between characters. Whether they are companions, rivals, nemeses or lovers. I respect that certain players do not want romance in their games and I also respectfully and strongly disagree with them. I believe that it would be an unforgivable step backwards if gaming were to relegate an entire sphere of human experience to what currently amounts to as shallow mini games...

[Knight of Dane]

daaaav wrote...

It would seem that gaming as a whole needs to better understand and articulate why the ways sexuality and romance are presented attract allegations of "Twilightness" and fan service.

Comments such as "I don't want romance, I just want a strong plot" and "I don't think that romance should be more important than the main plot" entirely miss the point of literature, story telling and and the human experience. It is hard to adequately engage the reader or player with characters who are motivated solely by grand issues such as saving / conquering the world. It sounds ridiculous I know, but all you need to do is examine the world wide apathy regarding climate change to see the truth of it. Whats more, Bioware appear to understand this since Mordin explains it quite well in Mass Effect 2 when he reveals that he fights for his favorite nephew, not to save the galaxy because the galaxy is too big and impersonal.

In my opinion, Bioware need to move away from the gimmicky nature of the romance options (dialogue, dialogue, dialogue, you win sex scene) and further intertwine them with the main story. Yes, there are challenges presented by the choices that players demand but I believe that Bioware are in a position to meet them. I am however discouraged by David Gaider admitting that he would prefer to story tell without romance at all... I don't understand how this would work with a story like Dragon Age. The type of story telling in Dragon Age is certainly influenced by epics such as the Iliad and Odyssey. We (or I) engage with those characters and their reasons for fighting, suffering and struggling not because of some need to see Troy fall or Greece become a world power, but because of the interplay between characters. Who do you identify with? Agamemnon the callous one dimensional conqueror? Or characters like Achilles, Hector or Odyseus who have more depth generated by more personal motivations?

Stories work best when they are focused on the relationships between characters. Whether they are companions, rivals, nemeses or lovers. I respect that certain players do not want romance in their games and I also respectfully and strongly disagree with them. I believe that it would be an unforgivable step backwards if gaming were to relegate an entire sphere of human experience to what currently amounts to as shallow mini games...

Great points daaaav.

What bioware also represents (for others than me too, I am sure) is that it creates games where the emphasis is on "optional."
I truly beleive that given sufficient work, romances can both be giving, beyond mushy side content, as well as remain optional for the player that would want to play without it entirely.
It's an obstacle of course, but so is anything in branching storylines that hopefully has variable endings.
It's the writers and the programmers job to find a way to overcome or avoid those obstacles, and aside what criticism bioware has received for Mass Effect 3 and Dragon Age 2 I still applaud them for keeping up the spirit to keep delivering engaging characters and stories that can include romantic content.

If bioware could really blend it together I am sure we will have an extremely tasty soup!

[Swagger7]

IMO the ration of romance content to other content in DAO & DA2 was just right. I wouldn't mind having six LIs rather than four though, variety being the spice of life....

[Kidd]

daaaav wrote...

It would seem that gaming as a whole needs to better understand and articulate why the ways sexuality and romance are presented attract allegations of "Twilightness" and fan service.

Comments such as "I don't want romance, I just want a strong plot" and "I don't think that romance should be more important than the main plot" entirely miss the point of literature, story telling and and the human experience. It is hard to adequately engage the reader or player with characters who are motivated solely by grand issues such as saving / conquering the world. It sounds ridiculous I know, but all you need to do is examine the world wide apathy regarding climate change to see the truth of it. Whats more, Bioware appear to understand this since Mordin explains it quite well in Mass Effect 2 when he reveals that he fights for his favorite nephew, not to save the galaxy because the galaxy is too big and impersonal.

In my opinion, Bioware need to move away from the gimmicky nature of the romance options (dialogue, dialogue, dialogue, you win sex scene) and further intertwine them with the main story. Yes, there are challenges presented by the choices that players demand but I believe that Bioware are in a position to meet them. I am however discouraged by David Gaider admitting that he would prefer to story tell without romance at all... I don't understand how this would work with a story like Dragon Age. The type of story telling in Dragon Age is certainly influenced by epics such as the Iliad and Odyssey. We (or I) engage with those characters and their reasons for fighting, suffering and struggling not because of some need to see Troy fall or Greece become a world power, but because of the interplay between characters. Who do you identify with? Agamemnon the callous one dimensional conqueror? Or characters like Achilles, Hector or Odyseus who have more depth generated by more personal motivations?

Stories work best when they are focused on the relationships between characters. Whether they are companions, rivals, nemeses or lovers. I respect that certain players do not want romance in their games and I also respectfully and strongly disagree with them. I believe that it would be an unforgivable step backwards if gaming were to relegate an entire sphere of human experience to what currently amounts to as shallow mini games...

May I marry you, and be part of your human experience? This post was fantastic. Consider your plot hook sunk in my mind.

[Renmiri1]

Knight of Dane wrote...

If bioware could really blend it together I am sure we will have an extremely tasty soup!

DA2 was pretty good in that aspect, IMHO  except for act 3 wich was rushed. Acts 1 and 2 were perfect. Act 1 has no romance, which makes sense as you are getting to meet your companions. Act 2 has a romance evolving and you can even get some LIs to move in with you. Act 3 consolidates all unfinished romances from 2 or reinforces them, which was quite fun. 

Too bad Anders went from "I can't begin to tell you how important those last 3 years together have been" to "hold this bomb for me a second please"

God dammit Anders! 

[Cobra's_back]

DinoSteve wrote...

I think they should make less of the romance, and focus on giving us a strong story.

I second this.

[Cobra's_back]

Less romance more stories or sub stories and more customization. Amalur Reckoning allowed armor customization. More flexible builds make the game more interesting.

[DaringMoosejaw]

Da(repeating)v put it absolutely the best.

[Fraq Hound]

daaaav wrote...

It would seem that gaming as a whole needs to better understand and articulate why the ways sexuality and romance are presented attract allegations of "Twilightness" and fan service.

Comments such as "I don't want romance, I just want a strong plot" and "I don't think that romance should be more important than the main plot" entirely miss the point of literature, story telling and and the human experience. It is hard to adequately engage the reader or player with characters who are motivated solely by grand issues such as saving / conquering the world. It sounds ridiculous I know, but all you need to do is examine the world wide apathy regarding climate change to see the truth of it. Whats more, Bioware appear to understand this since Mordin explains it quite well in Mass Effect 2 when he reveals that he fights for his favorite nephew, not to save the galaxy because the galaxy is too big and impersonal.

In my opinion, Bioware need to move away from the gimmicky nature of the romance options (dialogue, dialogue, dialogue, you win sex scene) and further intertwine them with the main story. Yes, there are challenges presented by the choices that players demand but I believe that Bioware are in a position to meet them. I am however discouraged by David Gaider admitting that he would prefer to story tell without romance at all... I don't understand how this would work with a story like Dragon Age. The type of story telling in Dragon Age is certainly influenced by epics such as the Iliad and Odyssey. We (or I) engage with those characters and their reasons for fighting, suffering and struggling not because of some need to see Troy fall or Greece become a world power, but because of the interplay between characters. Who do you identify with? Agamemnon the callous one dimensional conqueror? Or characters like Achilles, Hector or Odyseus who have more depth generated by more personal motivations?

Stories work best when they are focused on the relationships between characters. Whether they are companions, rivals, nemeses or lovers. I respect that certain players do not want romance in their games and I also respectfully and strongly disagree with them. I believe that it would be an unforgivable step backwards if gaming were to relegate an entire sphere of human experience to what currently amounts to as shallow mini games...

Having just read the first couple pages of this thread, I was ready to write this community off. Clearly a growing number of the people here are only interested in Bioware's games for their combat (When the hell did this happen? Combat has never been Bioware's strong suit) or have the ridiculous notion that romance isn't important to a strong story.

Thank goodness I read your post, I guess there are at least a few people still hanging around here with some sense.

Bioware makes games with strong narrative that relies on building relationships with a cast of characters.

They are one of a very few companies that create games like this.

Up until a couple years ago I would have said that they are by far the best company at creating games like this.

Seriously, if you are here because you like their games for the combat... Then more power to you but don't come here, into threads that don't even affect the aspects you like about their games, spouting off about how there should be less romance.

There are a plethora of games out there that offer generic third person shooting or janky melee action combat but only a slim few focus on telling a good story.

If you don't understand why romance is important to a good story, then read daaaav's post.

Modifié par Fraq Hound, 20 février 2013 - 05:26 .

[Knight of Dane]

Renmiri1 wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

If bioware could really blend it together I am sure we will have an extremely tasty soup!

DA2 was pretty good in that aspect, IMHO  except for act 3 wich was rushed. Acts 1 and 2 were perfect. Act 1 has no romance, which makes sense as you are getting to meet your companions. Act 2 has a romance evolving and you can even get some LIs to move in with you. Act 3 consolidates all unfinished romances from 2 or reinforces them, which was quite fun. 

Too bad Anders went from "I can't begin to tell you how important those last 3 years together have been" to "hold this bomb for me a second please"

God dammit Anders! 

I disagree, I think it was done halfly all the way through.

I don't see why Isabela's romance couldn't have been initiated in Act 1 for example, you pretty much just have to flirt with her to start it.
Fenris and Anders for that matter shows almost immediate interest in Hawke too, but I can understand why they *should* be given more time.

As for moving in, which was a nice feature, I cannot understand why Fenris doesn't in act 3 when he has no ties to Danarius' mansion any longer.

After Fenris and Isabela break off after the initial romance scene you are never given the option to confront them about it before you complete their personal mission in the seventh year, that just doesn't make sense to me.
If Hawke cared for either of them I just couldn't see why s/he would wait three years before touching the subject again.
Even if they both refused to talk about it, it would still have been nice, and beleivable, to be given the option to try.

In the end my issues with the romances and is the same as the story arcs that we as played are told to assume a great deal, which just doesn't work, for me at least. Being told that a lot of cool things happened in the three years that went by between the Deep Roads and the beginning of act 2 just doesn't hold any value.

[Iakus]

daaaav wrote...

It would seem that gaming as a whole needs to better understand and articulate why the ways sexuality and romance are presented attract allegations of "Twilightness" and fan service.

Comments such as "I don't want romance, I just want a strong plot" and "I don't think that romance should be more important than the main plot" entirely miss the point of literature, story telling and and the human experience. It is hard to adequately engage the reader or player with characters who are motivated solely by grand issues such as saving / conquering the world. It sounds ridiculous I know, but all you need to do is examine the world wide apathy regarding climate change to see the truth of it. Whats more, Bioware appear to understand this since Mordin explains it quite well in Mass Effect 2 when he reveals that he fights for his favorite nephew, not to save the galaxy because the galaxy is too big and impersonal.

In my opinion, Bioware need to move away from the gimmicky nature of the romance options (dialogue, dialogue, dialogue, you win sex scene) and further intertwine them with the main story. Yes, there are challenges presented by the choices that players demand but I believe that Bioware are in a position to meet them. I am however discouraged by David Gaider admitting that he would prefer to story tell without romance at all... I don't understand how this would work with a story like Dragon Age. The type of story telling in Dragon Age is certainly influenced by epics such as the Iliad and Odyssey. We (or I) engage with those characters and their reasons for fighting, suffering and struggling not because of some need to see Troy fall or Greece become a world power, but because of the interplay between characters. Who do you identify with? Agamemnon the callous one dimensional conqueror? Or characters like Achilles, Hector or Odyseus who have more depth generated by more personal motivations?

Stories work best when they are focused on the relationships between characters. Whether they are companions, rivals, nemeses or lovers. I respect that certain players do not want romance in their games and I also respectfully and strongly disagree with them. I believe that it would be an unforgivable step backwards if gaming were to relegate an entire sphere of human experience to what currently amounts to as shallow mini games...

+1

[Sylvanpyxie]

Bioware makes games with strong narrative that relies on building relationships with a cast of characters.

Of course, that's the charm of Bioware games. But there's a difference between building a variety of relationships and forcing very specific content onto a Player.

Perhaps the thread has merely lost it's direction or people have just been skimming the posts, the original suggestion was to make more of romance (something I could certainly accept if it meant a more natural progression of relationships) but also to have romance become one of the driving forces of the main plot, which is where I personally draw the line.

The obvious charm to Bioware games is the emotional connection that Bioware build between the Player and their Party. Few Players will really care about saving the world, so much as the people in their particularly small part of it (which was proven with Mass Effect 3 I believe). The relationships vary depending on your choices, obviously, which is fantastic. It offers a realism to your experience, an understanding that not everyone will accept you and your choices.

The problem comes when a very specific type of relationship is forced onto a Player, like the Original Poster suggested. This not only limits a Player's ability to define and characterize the personality of their own character, but it forces a compulsory romantic element onto people that might not want it.

Were I forced to pursue romantic content in order to continue the main story of the game, I would be annoyed. It's not so much about the romantic content itself, but more about the fact that it isn't my choice to pursue it - That would damage the game for me, not just because of a compulsory relationship that I might not want to pursue, but also because my character may not want to pursue it.

If I want to play a completely Blight-Focused Dalish Elf who sets aside all personal happiness in order to save the world then I should have that choice. Not be railroaded into a romantic relationship that my character would never pursue.

So to clarify my point - It's not romance that I have a problem with, I very much appreciate that my Ditsy Mage fell in love and had her heart broken as a result. The problem I have is the suggestion that romantic content should be made a requirement for the continuation of the actual main plot.

It's about choice or rather the lack of choice that is suggested.

Modifié par Sylvanpyxie, 20 février 2013 - 06:16 .

[Knight of Dane]

Sylvanpyxie wrote...

Bioware makes games with strong narrative that relies on building relationships with a cast of characters.

Of course, that's the charm of Bioware games. But there's a difference between building a variety of relationships and forcing very specific content onto a Player.

[...]The problem I have is the suggestion that romantic content should be made a requirement for the continuation of the actual main plot.

It's about choice or rather the lack of choice that is suggested.

Would you mind if I asked you to point out who actually made that suggestion?

I can't remember reading that people wished it to be a requirement exactly, just that they wanted it to play some form of larger role.

I would think that's very acheivable without forcing it on anyone.

[Renmiri1]

I don't think anyone pro-romance asked for it to be required. Is just the anti-romance folks can't leave a romance thread undisturbed

[Sylvanpyxie]

Knight:
Would you mind if I asked you to point out who actually made that suggestion?

Original Poster:
I want romantic elements that are intertwined within the whole plot arc, and actually DRIVE it.

Though I had initially assumed that "actually driving the plot" would make such a relationship compulsory, I admitted that I could have perhaps misunderstood the original suggestion. Though the Original Poster did nothing to correct what could have been a simple misunderstanding and instead responded with this:

Yes, that's a good point. Personally I would say 'so what?' There's plenty of games out there that drive everything through constant killing and empty 'kill the bad guys/save the world' storylines. 'Forcing' decent drama on somebody isn't such a bad thing.

Which, I'm sure you can understand, did nothing to persuade me that his/her intentions were otherwise.

Again, I'll gladly admit that I could have misunderstood the Original Poster's intentions, but until that misunderstanding is cleared up then I feel the need to protest to what could possibly be the suggestion of a compulsory element to romantic relationships.

Knight:
I would think that's very acheivable without forcing it on anyone.

I'm certain that it could be possible and, though I don't pursue romances with the same vigor that others do, I certainly wouldn't have a problem with the relationships between Player and NPC becoming a bit more involved or the progression moving a bit more naturally.

As I said - I have no problem with the romantic content itself, and my interpretation of the Original Poster could certainly have been a mistake on my part, but as I'm currently understanding it the request is either not properly thought out or simply ignores the Non-Romance crowd altogether.

Modifié par Sylvanpyxie, 20 février 2013 - 07:05 .

[Bowhunter4L]

I have said in the past that the romance in the DA games are pretty much pre-teen with it being a mature rated game. Like some of the others on this forum have played the Baldurs gate games. I loved the games, in part because of all the extra mods that could be added to it. Which was my favs were the banter mods and the NPC romance mods. My favorite was fade. Now if the DA team could do the stuff like that and corporate in the game, I for one would enjoy the LI much more and I think others would feel the same and I think the future of the DA series would be much more successful

[Kidd]

Renmiri1 wrote...

Too bad Anders went from "I can't begin to tell you how important those last 3 years together have been" to "hold this bomb for me a second please"

'Twas awesome! Told me a lot about Anders' character, my Hawke's character and hey... my own character as well. I did react after all, and how I reacted may not be something I'm actually all too proud to voice in social situations. Certainly one of the best BioWare moments of all time to me, and I was lucky enough to romance him on my first playthrough =)

[Iakus]

Sylvanpyxie wrote...


Perhaps the thread has merely lost it's direction or people have just been skimming the posts, the original suggestion was to make more of romance (something I could certainly accept if it meant a more natural progression of relationships) but also to have romance become one of the driving forces of the main plot, which is where I personally draw the line.

I think romance content can be a driving force without being the driving force.  Just as any other motivation can be.  I'd just like the ability to make it more apparant, should I choose.

One example I can cite is form Mass Effect 3.  Early on, Liara asks Shepard how he/she handles the pressure, Shepard responds with something like "I think about all I have to lose if I fail"  If Shepard was in a romance with Ashley or Kaidan, the camera pans over to him or her as that line is stated, making it clear that they are what Shepard has to lose.

[Fraq Hound]

Sylvanpyxie wrote...

... If I want to play a completely Blight-Focused Dalish Elf who sets aside all personal happiness in order to save the world then I should have that choice. Not be railroaded into a romantic relationship that my character would never pursue...

I agree with you to a certain extent. I don't think the romance should be forced on the player, but at the same time I think more resources should be put into the dialogue of these games and that certainly includes romances.

You shouldn't be penalized for wanting to roleplay a "Blight-Focused Dalish Elf," but at the same time that's an extremely specific case. I can't say for certain that not many people played a "Blight-Focused Dalish Elf" but I've got a hunch that your in a very small minority there.

Yes, I realize that you were merely using that play-through as an example, but it works well to make my point.

Also I think if I was playing as a Blight-Focused Dalish Elf, I would want there to be a sense of loss that my character couldn't find love because of the blight. Ignorning the love plots completely just sounds terribly boring to me and would ultimately make the main plot less enjoyable. Now, finding love but having the willpower to set it aside in pursuit of the greater good... that has potential.

Then again, maybe that's just me.

Point is, the romances shouldn't be required and they sure as hell shouldn't be taken out of the game completely as some have suggested!

[Renmiri1]

KiddDaBeauty wrote...

Renmiri1 wrote...

Too bad Anders went from "I can't begin to tell you how important those last 3 years together have been" to "hold this bomb for me a second please"

'Twas awesome! Told me a lot about Anders' character, my Hawke's character and hey... my own character as well. I did react after all, and how I reacted may not be something I'm actually all too proud to voice in social situations. Certainly one of the best BioWare moments of all time to me, and I was lucky enough to romance him on my first playthrough =)

Lol, I joined him as well