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Make more of the romance, please.


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#76
Kidd

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Renmiri1 wrote...

KiddDaBeauty wrote...

Renmiri1 wrote...

Too bad Anders went from "I can't begin to tell you how important those last 3 years together have been" to "hold this bomb for me a second please"

'Twas awesome! Told me a lot about Anders' character, my Hawke's character and hey... my own character as well. I did react after all, and how I reacted may not be something I'm actually all too proud to voice in social situations. Certainly one of the best BioWare moments of all time to me, and I was lucky enough to romance him on my first playthrough =)


Lol, I joined him as well :P

How did you know that's what I did...?
:ph34r::innocent:

#77
Volus Warlord

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PLEASE GOD, NO! /cries

#78
shootist70

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Sylvanpyxie wrote...






Personally I would say 'so what?' 'Forcing' decent drama on somebody isn't such a bad thing.

And here-in lies my issue. The request itself is horribly self-centered.


It's actually the opposite. It's about making it more universally engaging by use of themes that strike a chord with the widest audience possible. By crafting the fiction so that the audience can actually care about the events on a universal level.

The real bad trashy fantasy tends to try and engage the audience by stressing  the importance of the large themes within its created worlds. Characters tend to be one dimensional vehicles for exposition, info-dump and plot-delivery and little more than that. Typically, they try to remind us how important this all is through their dialogue, and by risking their lives at every moment for it all. And it almost never works. Even when writers ttry to flesh out the characters and the events it still tends to fall flat.

That's because it's only really a niche audience that can really involve themselves within the 'larger themes' of fantasy worlds in this sort of lightweight genre fiction. Exploring these wider issues only works when given full treatment within freaking skillfully crafted works of allegory that have subtle layers of subtext that carry a meaning that's generalisable to our own experience of the world. You don't get that in genre 'trash', and attempts to achieve it tend to be laughable or downright cringeworthy. Best for Bioware to steer well clear.

So if Bioware can't achieve universally engaging drama through larger themes, what can they use? Well, it's obvious. They should use the smaller ones. They should key in on the human experience, the human condition, by use of the familiar and the readily emotive. One clear, tried and tested technique throughout the ages has been thumping good use of love, lust, passion and betrayal in love to drive the narrative.

All the demons, lords, empires, churches and whatever should simply serve as a rich stage and backdrop for these familair themes to play out in, and should never be the main impetus for driving them.

Modifié par shootist70, 21 février 2013 - 02:55 .


#79
daaaav

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shootist70 wrote...

Sylvanpyxie wrote...






Personally I would say 'so what?' 'Forcing' decent drama on somebody isn't such a bad thing.

And here-in lies my issue. The request itself is horribly self-centered.


It's actually the opposite. It's about making it more universally engaging by use of themes that strike a chord with the widest audience possible. By crafting the fiction so that the audience can actually care about the events on a universal level.

The real bad trashy fantasy tends to try and engage the audience by stressing  the importance of the large themes within its created worlds. Characters tend to be one dimensional vehicles for exposition, info-dump and plot-delivery and little more than that. Typically, they try to remind us how important this all is through their dialogue, and by risking their lives at every moment for it all. And it almost never works. Even when writers ttry to flesh out the characters and the events it still tends to fall flat.

That's because it's only really a niche audience that can really involve themselves within the 'larger themes' of fantasy worlds in this sort of lightweight genre fiction. Exploring these wider issues only works when given full treatment within freaking skillfully crafted works of allegory that have subtle layers of subtext that carry a meaning that's generalisable to our own experience of the world. You don't get that in genre 'trash', and attempts to achieve it tend to be laughable or downright cringeworthy. Best for Bioware to steer well clear.

So if Bioware can't achieve universally engaging drama through larger themes, what can they use? Well, it's obvious. They should use the smaller ones. They should key in on the human experience, the human condition, by use of the familiar and the readily emotive. One clear, tried and tested technique throughout the ages has been thumping good use of love, lust, passion and betrayal in love to drive the narrative.

All the demons, lords, empires, churches and whatever should simply serve as a rich stage and backdrop for these familair themes to play out in, and should never be the main impetus for driving them.


Got halfway through something similar but oh so woefully inadequate.

#80
Darth Krytie

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Knight of Dane wrote...


I disagree, I think it was done halfly all the way through.

I don't see why Isabela's romance couldn't have been initiated in Act 1 for example, you pretty much just have to flirt with her to start it.
Fenris and Anders for that matter shows almost immediate interest in Hawke too, but I can understand why they *should* be given more time.

As for moving in, which was a nice feature, I cannot understand why Fenris doesn't in act 3 when he has no ties to Danarius' mansion any longer.

After Fenris and Isabela break off after the initial romance scene you are never given the option to confront them about it before you complete their personal mission in the seventh year, that just doesn't make sense to me.
If Hawke cared for either of them I just couldn't see why s/he would wait three years before touching the subject again.
Even if they both refused to talk about it, it would still have been nice, and beleivable, to be given the option to try.

In the end my issues with the romances and is the same as the story arcs that we as played are told to assume a great deal, which just doesn't work, for me at least. Being told that a lot of cool things happened in the three years that went by between the Deep Roads and the beginning of act 2 just doesn't hold any value.


I actually agree with you here. The one weakness in how they told DA2 romances was that everything seemed to be put in stasis during the time skips. It makes no sense for someone to have a person they like, flirt, wait three years, then sleep with them, then wait three years and decide you want to date them after all. Especially since you could kill those romances by being "unfaithful" or whatever.


I think that it'd been better to at least be able to have a post-omg sex-Fenris convo. Or even a short scene with Isabela telling you something, anything that keeps you waiting. It'd have worked so much better.


As to the op, I always preferred the romances that directly entwine with the main plot. It just seems better over all, as a role playing experience. My most frequent romances being Alistair/Anders. I wouldn't mind if the romance didn't seem over at they had sex. Which is generally the case in these games. Once you do it, there's very little left involved.

#81
10K

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I would just like the romances to be more interesting. DA2 romances were horrible, and everyone was Bi what's up with that. This really killed Anders for me. In awakening he was a big sarcastic womanizer, but his attitude changed dramatically. He had the sarcastic part going for him, but there wasn't enough womanizing going on.

Anyway, as long as the LIs are more interesting and the relationships are developed better than they were in DA2, I think I'll be satisfied. But if they're anything like what we got in DA2 BW can cut romances all together.

#82
shootist70

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daaaav wrote...

It is hard to adequately engage the reader or player with characters who are motivated solely by grand issues such as saving / conquering the world. It sounds ridiculous I know, but all you need to do is examine the world wide apathy regarding climate change to see the truth of it. Whats more, Bioware appear to understand this since Mordin explains it quite well in Mass Effect 2 when he reveals that he fights for his favorite nephew, not to save the galaxy because the galaxy is too big and impersonal.


That's a very good point, and it becomes more apparent when you consider the indifference towards the grand issues within our own history. Forget empires with elves and orcs (see darkspawn), if we really wanted a rich fictive world to explore would we need to go any further than our own bloodsoaked and treachorous past?

Yet even historical fiction tends to drive its narratives with more familiar, human themes, with the grander issues usually just forming the stage on which the smaller, emotive issues are played out. It's these emotive themes that form the rollercoaster that leads to that release, the catharsis, that rams the story firmly into the human consciousness. The grander themes barely tend to register.

Here's a bit an example of how this has worked in history: Let's step back to 480 bc and the Mediterranean, where an epic tale unfolded. Around 400 battle-weary allied Greek triremes sailed into the Saronic Gulf to confront over 1000 imperial Persian warships. The Battle of Salamis is often referred to by historians as the most important battle in human history, for good reason. This is were the newly flowering concepts of western democracy and individual liberty came close to being snuffed out forever. It's one of the first times were an entire people forsook the materials essential to their survival: their homes, lands and their possessions, to fight for an abstract concept - freedom, and against overwhelming odds.

It's as epic as it gets, yet it barely registers. Name the antagonists, such as Themistocles (a guy who should have burned his way into our consciousness), and most people won't have an idea who he was. Before films like 300 most folks wouldn't have recognised the name of Xerxes.

Now, roll the clock forward a few centuries, and move a little across the med to another naval battle, the Battle of Actium. This is pretty much insignificant compared to Salamis - just another rebellious Roman client kingdom trying to assert its independance, and duly put down accordingly. It's a footnote, or it should be, yet just about everybody has heard the names of the antagonists here: Anthony and Cleopatra.

Theirs is a tale that has been burned into our popular history and retold so many times it's hard to tell fact from fiction anymore. Given what's been said already on the thread, it's pretty obvious were I'm going here: there are certain fictive themes that give tales a grandeur far beyond their actual scope, as far as a catharsis-hungry audience is concerned.

Modifié par shootist70, 21 février 2013 - 03:23 .


#83
RinuCZ

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Well, I played as female Warden in DA:O and I could romance only one female - Leliana. She tried hard to feel like a naive school girl. I couldn't connect with her and sometimes I was annoyed by her, so my Warden kinda ended in grounded, tender relationship which made a journey through the world more bearable for her. It felt adult and real and I started to like it.
Dragon Age 2 had Isabela and Merrill. Merrill was a spoiled brat who thought everyone owned her something and she reminded me someone from RL. Isabela seemed, well, to be shallow show-it-all type. Hawke paired with Isabela and actually, their relationship wrapped up nicely and I got used to her and began to like her a lot.

Yeah, Morrigan and Aveline were tempting yet inaccessible. Do I mind? I did in DA:O because I disliked everyone else for a majority of the game but it made sense considering the finale. I had a choice in DA2. As long as DA will contain romances and I'll have at least one unique F/F option, I'll be happy. And if a companion makes her own decisions despite protagonist's opinions like Isabela did, I'm sure it will be a real treat. :)

Modifié par RinuCZ, 21 février 2013 - 09:11 .


#84
Pasquale1234

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Even though it wasn't romantic in nature, I certainly felt that family relationships played a huge part in how I experienced DA2's storyline.

If your character values family loyalty, it could be pretty hard to take an anti-mage approach to the game.  OTOH, if your character was fed up with the sacrifices the family had made to support their apostate members, well... you might welcome the opportunity to toss Bethany to the wolves Templars.

Each of the available LIs in the game had unique perspectives, issues, decision points, that could certainly influence Hawke's views and choices in different ways.  And since you could friendmance or rivalmance any of them, there were quite a few different ways to juxtapose your choices relative to your LI's positions.

#85
shootist70

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daaaav wrote...

I am however discouraged by David Gaider admitting that he would prefer to story tell without romance at all... I don't understand how this would work with a story like Dragon Age.


I wanted to comment on this point seperately. I do hope that David isn't treading onto that dodgy ground were so many wannabe Tolkiens and J K Rowlings have gone before. It's an easy trap to fall into when a niche audience pushes the writer into a bubble where delusions of grandeur can take hold.

And it's a very self-regarding and masturbationary world for the writer, who, so taken with their own visions of world-creation, can indulge in a furious gratification of their own ego at the expense of the needs of their own wider audience, who are left walking away with an indifferent shrug.

It's all very well if the writer happens to be a new Angela Carter or whatever - with a sensitive touch for subtext, a sharp sense of social meaning, and a killer talent for allegory (I'm not including Rowling here, she just got lucky). It's a long fall for those who try to reach above where their actual ability can take them.

Modifié par shootist70, 22 février 2013 - 04:21 .


#86
rwilli80

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Make a better story please and don't waste development and writing time on stupid romance.

#87
shootist70

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rwilli80 wrote...

Make a better story please and don't waste development and writing time on stupid romance.


Try replying to the thread, and not just the title, then realise how shallow and pointless this sounds.

#88
daaaav

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rwilli80 wrote...

Make a better story please and don't waste development and writing time on stupid romance.


Care to elaborate on some examples of good stories?

Modifié par daaaav, 22 février 2013 - 05:02 .


#89
fuzuoko

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daaaav wrote...

It would seem that gaming as a whole needs to better understand and articulate why the ways sexuality and romance are presented attract allegations of "Twilightness" and fan service.

Comments such as "I don't want romance, I just want a strong plot" and "I don't think that romance should be more important than the main plot" entirely miss the point of literature, story telling and and the human experience. It is hard to adequately engage the reader or player with characters who are motivated solely by grand issues such as saving / conquering the world. It sounds ridiculous I know, but all you need to do is examine the world wide apathy regarding climate change to see the truth of it. Whats more, Bioware appear to understand this since Mordin explains it quite well in Mass Effect 2 when he reveals that he fights for his favorite nephew, not to save the galaxy because the galaxy is too big and impersonal.

In my opinion, Bioware need to move away from the gimmicky nature of the romance options (dialogue, dialogue, dialogue, you win sex scene) and further intertwine them with the main story. Yes, there are challenges presented by the choices that players demand but I believe that Bioware are in a position to meet them. I am however discouraged by David Gaider admitting that he would prefer to story tell without romance at all... I don't understand how this would work with a story like Dragon Age. The type of story telling in Dragon Age is certainly influenced by epics such as the Iliad and Odyssey. We (or I) engage with those characters and their reasons for fighting, suffering and struggling not because of some need to see Troy fall or Greece become a world power, but because of the interplay between characters. Who do you identify with? Agamemnon the callous one dimensional conqueror? Or characters like Achilles, Hector or Odyseus who have more depth generated by more personal motivations?

Stories work best when they are focused on the relationships between characters. Whether they are companions, rivals, nemeses or lovers. I respect that certain players do not want romance in their games and I also respectfully and strongly disagree with them. I believe that it would be an unforgivable step backwards if gaming were to relegate an entire sphere of human experience to what currently amounts to as shallow mini games...


Word. Thank you for putting it so eloquently.

#90
killswitch423

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I don't think any game has gotten romance and love interests down perfectly yet, but Bioware has come closest for me... at least, when it's not a canon romance and I have a choice in partner. I'd love to see more types of romance (I actually kind of like the end of Jacob's romance arc in ME3; it's nice to see someone who's entire life and heart don't revolve around our protagonist) and less 'sex as the closure' and more relationships where the relationship evolves in different ways at different times; a scene before the final battle is awesome and expected, but it shouldn't house the main meat of the romance.

Someone like Izzy, for example, should hop in bed pretty early in the romance (currently playing through her romance the first time right now so I don't know what happens post act 2) and then the relationship should develop from there, with doubt and emotional walls breaking down over the course of the narrative to a final Han Solo-esque "I love you/I know" kind of deal. Someone like Merrill should have more of the opposite progression; an emotional build up in the relationship, then commitment, then physicality. I use Merrill and Izzy only as general personality types here, not specifically so don't look too far into that...

It's just a topic I think is worthy of a little extra dev time to make more awesomer.

#91
Sakanade

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Go play a dating sim, and stay out of my dragon age.

#92
Knight of Dane

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Sakanade wrote...

Go play a dating sim, and stay out of my dragon age.

You're the one in the wrong francishe buddy, romances have always been there.

Go play Kingdoms of Amalur and stay away from my Dragon Age.

#93
deeros

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They should do it like in SWTOR: the stories and romances were great. Of couse other stuff needs improvement but storywise wouldn't be bad.

#94
Oberkaiser

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"Video games are art" they said.

"Now give us more fantasy ****** material" they added.

I'm sure Dave thinks he's a reasonably talented writer. I wonder, then, if he thinks his talents are well spent writing softcore pornography for underage kids.

Modifié par Oberkaiser, 22 février 2013 - 02:31 .


#95
killswitch423

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The point is over there, guys. No not there, there! Nope... still missing it >_>

Romances are not '****** material' to those of us seriously discussing it; most great works of fiction involve epic romances and until people like you grow the hell up games will never be allowed to grow to handle the topic maturely.

#96
daaaav

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Oberkaiser wrote...

"Video games are art" they said.

"Now give us more fantasy ****** material" they added.

I'm sure Dave thinks he's a reasonably talented writer. I wonder, then, if he thinks his talents are well spent writing softcore pornography for underage kids.


art? fantasy ****** material? softcore pornography? underage kids?

What the hell are you on about.

#97
Knight of Dane

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daaaav wrote...

Oberkaiser wrote...

"Video games are art" they said.

"Now give us more fantasy ****** material" they added.

I'm sure Dave thinks he's a reasonably talented writer. I wonder, then, if he thinks his talents are well spent writing softcore pornography for underage kids.


art? fantasy ****** material? softcore pornography? underage kids?

What the hell are you on about.

Don't waste your time on them daaaav.

All the reasonable anti-romancers have left the thread to trolls apparently :/

#98
gonzalez.melissa53

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I have to agree with the OP. Deeper, more quest driven romances would be awesome! That being said you would still want to have an enjoyable playthrough if you decided to skip the romance.

#99
Renmiri1

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Oberkaiser wrote...

"Video games are art" they said.

"Now give us more fantasy ****** material" they added.

I'm sure Dave thinks he's a reasonably talented writer. I wonder, then, if he thinks his talents are well spent writing softcore pornography for underage kids.


underage kids can not play an ESRB 17+ game

softcore porn is a lot more explicit than a kiss and some underwear clad couple

****** material ?

Oh dear, if you ******  to that kind of thing, then more power to you but don't confuse what you like to ****** to with anyone else's tastes.

How old are you anyway ? Are you even supposed to be p;aying an ESRB17 game ? Because I'm really questioning your age, if you have never seen any "****** material" and pornography more explicit than a kiss while wearing underwear then you have a world of things to be shocked about. Stay out of the internet until you are old enough to deal with them.

You sure you are allowed on the net to post ? 

Modifié par Renmiri1, 22 février 2013 - 09:08 .


#100
Renmiri1

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Knight of Dane wrote...

Don't waste your time on them daaaav.

All the reasonable anti-romancers have left the thread to trolls apparently :/


I for one find his directness refreshing. He has the guts to say aloud all the prejudice that all the other anti-romancers try to hide in a mountain of words.

But it doesn't fool anyone, the hate for an 100% optional part of the game when you are not hating on soundtrack, useless side quests, multiplayer and all the other optional parts of the game can only mean one thing: prejudice