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On the Relationship of Mechanics to Ambiance


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#1
adun12345

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Despite my love of the Dragon Age games, no game has ever made me feel more like a bad-ass medieval adventurer than Baldur's Gate II.  I've been thinking recently about what, exactly, makes Baldur's Gate seem so vivid and alive when compared to the Dragon Age series.

One thing that I keep returning to is the sheer complexity of BG2, both in its mechanics and its environment.  The class and combat mechanics are truly arcane, but the difficulty of the game means that any successful playthrough will require at least some familiarity with the relative benefits of "Save Versus Death" versus "Save Versus Spell," knowledge of whether Breach can remove Stoneskin or Spell Immunity, and an appreciation of the Contingency and Sequencer systems.  Better know the difference between "dual class" and "multi-class" for leveling up.  The spell lists themselves are huge, with many abilities that are highly situational (or, in some cases, just bad).  The inventories are tiny and segregated across the characters, creating an odd mini-game of mix-and-match to optimize one's loot.  The City of Athkatla is a maze of redundant locations and vendors, full of buildings that in many cases are completely unrelated to all but the most obscure quests, quests so obscure that you may never even find them.  The quests themselves offer little in the way of guidance, requiring one to pay attention during conversations, occasionally take notes in one's journal, and actually try to read the maps.  Better pick your end-game party early and stick with them, since only the characters that you take with you on missions actually get experience (though once you get the spell to summon demons, you can just kill them repeatedly to level up, if you want).

I think I've gone soft, guys, because in retrospect a lot of this doesn't sound terribly attractive.  I keep telling my wife (who loves the Dragon Age games) about how awesome the stories and characters from the BG series are, but I'm almost positive she would hate the games if she tried to play them - they just require too much work to figure out.  I remember playing KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights 2, or DA:O and being relieved at how streamlined their inventory, map, and ability systems were.  In this regard, things can definitely be too complex.

And yet... I still catch myself thinking back to Baldur's Gate II as perhaps the best RPG experience I've ever played.  There is, I think, something about mechanical complexity that actually enhances the realism of a game.  On a certain level, I sort of want the spell system to be arcane and difficult to figure out - that's what magic should be like.  I sort of want the main quest hub to be an impossibly-complex maze of redundancy and variation - anyone who's ever lived in a city knows that's what it's like.  I even sort of want the old, confusing journal/map system back, where you had to actually read the maps to figure out where you were going and could actually get lost trying to find something and, because the game was so dense, often stumble onto something completely different (props to the one side quest in the Korcari Wilds in DA:O where you have to find the treasure by following a verbal treasure map referring to various local landmarks :) ). 

This complexity increases the sense of ambiance in the game.  I'm wandering down an Amnian alley wondering whether this is the right run-down tavern under which is hidden an illegal slaving operation, or whether I've made a wrong turn (like last time) and will run into another inter-planar acting troupe that will whisk me off to the other side of the multi-verse or (like the time before that) a strange necromantic cabal of human-flesh-wearing cannibals.  As I enter the tavern (to the general murmuring hubub and prancing notes of a recorder and tamborine), one of my companions whines about how we really need to go and rescue her troll-infested family estate, and I'm wondering whether to fill my single Level 5 spellbook slot with Breach or Cone of Cold, all the while cursing myself for getting in so far over my head while my best friend is being held in magical Alcatraz.  I'd bet that everyone who was really into BG2 had moments like this.  At that moment, I don't feel like I'm playing a game anymore - I actually feel like I'm a wizard-mercenary, desperately trying to scrape together enough coin to spring my friend from the clutches of our mysterious mortal foe.  Most of this ambiance, I think, is lost when I have an intuitive spell system, a companion approval metric, and a bright shiny icon on my mini-map to show me exactly where to go.

Mechanical complexity does interesting things to the advancement dynamic in the game, as well.  Leveling up in BG2 was extremely important, but a lot of the improvement that came in playing the game was me, rather than my character.  By the time I'd finished playing, I felt I actually had a pretty good grasp of the odd and complicated magic system (though even then there remained corner-cases that could surprise).  I had my places in Athkatla where I would go to fence loot and pick up odds and ends, places that I had found and gravitated towards for whatever reason, rather than a single, easy-to-use one-stop shopping center.  And I was actually pretty good at reading maps and finding places.  The result, I think, is a fondness for those characters and that city that transcends anything else I've ever played.

I'm not sure what this trip down memory lane should mean for DA3; perhaps nothing at all.  I certainly don't want to go back to THAC0, "Save versus Wands," and leveling only the characters who are with you.  But I also think that it's possible to go too far down the path of streamline, convenient, easy-to-use gameplay, and that the Dragon Age series in general has thus far gone that route. 

To those who made it this far, what do you think?  Does mechanical complexity add to the ambiance of a game?  How might additional complexity add to the experience of future games, without making them unplayable?

#2
Giltspur

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Mechanics Adding to the Game.

I do like to feel like I, the player, got better as opposed to feeling like the game made me more powerful.  Ultimately a good game is probably just a series of interesting decisions.  And making decisions about things you don't immediately understand are going to be more interesting than a string of obvious decisions.  But I do get some similar feelings from modern Bioware games.

For example

In BGII, I had to learn to peel spell protections off of enemies.  I'd have two mages so that I was double-covered on really essential stuff while on less essential stuff I'd divide up my spells.  Well, on my weaker characters.  On my paladin with 20 STR (hey, skill books), I just sort of mowed everything down.

ME2 was also a peel-the-bubble-off-the-enemy-game.  But it's very simplified.  You've just got the shield/barrier/armor thing which is best handled by overload/warp/incinerate with other ways of dealing with each thing such as rapid fire for shields, concussive shot for barriers or warp for armor even if not as good as incinerate.  Didn't feel like as much of a learning in experience.  It was pretty easy.  But leveling up my party and choosing party members with the need to rip down defenses in mind made the game more fun.

DA2 wasn't about synergizing your party to take down shields in the way that ME2 was.  It was about synergizing your party to burst down the most threatening enemies with cross-class combos.  Unless you were on normal mode in which case there's no real need to synergize your party because the enemies have such low health as to not even encourage you to play the game.  But there I ended up making two parties that complemented each other.  My "A" team was Hawke (Elementalist/Force mage), Merrill (Primal/Spirit mage), Varric, Aveline.  I'd build up the shield spells on Aveline for tanking and setting up staggers that Merrill could finish.  Hawke would set Varric up with shatters that he'd finish off with Archery.  And my "B" team would swap in Fenris for Aveline and Isabela for Varric with Fenris and handle ccc's in different ways.  But they all worked together.  The story motivated me to have two parties.  And I chose level-up abilities in the order I did with an eye towards increasing ccc synergy.

So yeah mechanics make the game more interesting.  However, I will say that BGII's mechanics felt more like they were part of the world than say DA2's.  That was just a combat layer added on top.  It made the combat and leeveling more interesting.  But it didn't make the world more interesting.  And it didn't make me feel more like a mage.  Learning to use spells in BGII did make me feel more like a mage.  So if anything I'd like for the synergy subgames they build to be part of the world and to make intuitive sense instead of being something you get from a tooltip.

Being Lost Adding to the Game

Well, I definitely like big cities that you can get lost in whose streets you learn.  I like a city having character.  I like beocming familiar with where things are.  Bioware's cities are too streamlined.  There's that Chekhov thing about a gun needing to serve a purpose to justify its inclusion.  Sometimes Bioware is at the ragged edge of efficiency.  There's nothing in that building so it has no door.  That person is standing there because he's a quest giver at some point.  No city is like that.  So in that sense the efficiency of the cities reminds you of the fact that you're in a game instead of a world.  That's a balancing act.  It was too efficient for my tastes in DA2.  Hopefully they swing more in the other direction for DA3.  Obviously they can go too far in the other direction.  Aristotle.  Golden mean.  Virtue.  All that.

I have mixed feeling on quest markers.  Mostly I like them.  But not when they rob you of finding something.   Take Skyrim as an example.  You need to go to Riften.  Okay cool.  I have a map.  It has Riften on it.  So guide me to it.  I like that.  It's like medieval GPS.  However, "You need to find the lost recipe for Bonemold Armor."  Oh okay.  Bam, quest marker on north of Solstheim right on other side of mountain.  Now why the heck did the game just tell me that?  It should give me clues.  Like, where was the guy that had the map last seen? What were his goals?  Where would have have gone?  Put a quest marker to someone that saw him last whose location is described to me by an NPC.  But don't just take the search out a search by going "it's there, yo".  Again, I have mixed feelings on quest markers.  I don't particularly enjoy being lost or anything.  But sometimes these things are used in a way I don't like.  I have to think about it all more.

Modifié par Giltspur, 14 février 2013 - 09:28 .


#3
Knight of Dane

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Bwah, I'll read these some other time when I have more patience, for now just a comment to keep it in my history.

#4
AlanC9

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adun12345 wrote...
One thing that I keep returning to is the sheer complexity of BG2, both in its mechanics and its environment.  The class and combat mechanics are truly arcane, but the difficulty of the game means that any successful playthrough will require at least some familiarity with the relative benefits of "Save Versus Death" versus "Save Versus Spell," knowledge of whether Breach can remove Stoneskin or Spell Immunity, and an appreciation of the Contingency and Sequencer systems.  Better know the difference between "dual class" and "multi-class" for leveling up.  The spell lists themselves are huge, with many abilities that are highly situational (or, in some cases, just bad).  The inventories are tiny and segregated across the characters, creating an odd mini-game of mix-and-match to optimize one's loot.  The City of Athkatla is a maze of redundant locations and vendors, full of buildings that in many cases are completely unrelated to all but the most obscure quests, quests so obscure that you may never even find them.  The quests themselves offer little in the way of guidance, requiring one to pay attention during conversations, occasionally take notes in one's journal, and actually try to read the maps.  Better pick your end-game party early and stick with them, since only the characters that you take with you on missions actually get experience (though once you get the spell to summon demons, you can just kill them repeatedly to level up, if you want).


I'm not sure it's sensible to lump all different kinds of complexity together.  Liking complex maps doesn't mean you have to like incoherent rules and annoying inventory too.

As for rules complexity itself, AD&D's complexity is mostly the bad kind. It's all about winnowing out the worthless abilities in favor of the efficient ones. The better I got at the system, the fewer different spells I'd put in the loadouts.

Modifié par AlanC9, 14 février 2013 - 10:27 .


#5
adun12345

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Giltspur wrote...

So yeah mechanics make the game more interesting.  However, I will say that BGII's mechanics felt more like they were part of the world than say DA2's.  That was just a combat layer added on top.  It made the combat and leeveling more interesting.  But it didn't make the world more interesting.  And it didn't make me feel more like a mage.  Learning to use spells in BGII did make me feel more like a mage.  So if anything I'd like for the synergy subgames they build to be part of the world and to make intuitive sense instead of being something you get from a tooltip.

...

So in that sense the efficiency of the cities reminds you of the fact that you're in a game instead of a world.  That's a balancing act.  It was too efficient for my tastes in DA2.  Hopefully they swing more in the other direction for DA3.  Obviously they can go too far in the other direction.  Aristotle.  Golden mean.  Virtue.  All that.


You make a good point about the depth of DA2's combo system - perhaps complexity is the wrong aspect of BG2's system to focus on.  I think part of my problem with DA2 was just that I didn't enjoy the "waves of enemies" combat style they chose for the game.  I wonder, then, why BG2's spell system seems so much more immersive to me than DA2's combos...

I agree, too, on the Golden Mean - if I wanted a game that was as complex as reality, then I wouldn't play a game, I'd just live my life.  I guess I just hope that DA3 finds a spot on the continuum that is a little closer to the "complexity" side.

AlanC9 wrote...

I'm not sure it's sensible to lump all different kinds of complexity together.  Liking complex maps doesn't mean you have to like incoherent rules and annoying inventory too.

As for rules complexity itself, AD&D's complexity is mostly the bad kind. It's all about winnowing out the worthless abilities in favor of the efficient ones. The better I got at the system, the fewer different spells I'd put in the loadouts.


I think I agree.  I haven't really thought much as to what sorts of complexity might be beneficial in increasing ambiance or immersiveness, but it makes sense that some kinds might be more effective at this than others.

As for the AD&D spell system, I totally agree that there could have been a greater focus on a wider range of useful abilities.  That said, I still think the process of learning which ablities are the best, and which are best used in combination, is one that increases immersion.  I understand the countervailing desire to make the leveling up experience as rewarding as possible, so that each time you level up you get something awesome that is better than what you had before.  But I wonder whether that linear progression of ability "awesomeness" creates a trade-off with the immersiveness of the game.  In my own experience, the process of actually learning what is good and what is not is usually more rewarding than the ticking away of experience points.

Modifié par adun12345, 14 février 2013 - 11:15 .