67 réponses à ce sujet

[EpicBoot2daFace]

If there's one thing the Dragon Age games need it's some new races. Aside from the qunari, I'm not seeing much imagination at work here. We have humans, elves, and dwarves, and they're all pretty standard fare and don't look out of the ordinary for a fantasy game.

Variations within the existing races would also help a great deal. For example, the Dalish elves look identical to the city elves aside from some tattoos. If you put the same facial tattoo on a city elf, they are instantly Dalish. This makes me think that the artists don't really care to put in the time to make a visual culture for the Dalish elves. They applied the same idea to the dwarves without a caste. But without that brand on their faces, we would never know they are without caste. 

Granted, the artists at Bioware (IMO) haven't done anything worthwhile recently outside of Mass Effect. What this franchise needs is more imagination. We need more variations within the Dalish and Dwarven ranks. Different clans use different customs and so on. We need new races that are mysterious and intriguing. The Qunari is the the only race in the game that is not directly taken from Tolkien's work.

This franchise has struggled from the beginning to find an identity for itself. The art style and graphics in the first game were really poor and lacked imagination. The slow and tedious combat left much to be desired. The level design was restricted to hallways even in outside environments. The leveling system has a large amount of unnecessary skills and abilities, and so on. 

Much of that carried over into the second game, and despite their attempts to make the art and graphics "super hot", both were still mediocre. DA2 also introduced all new problems like repeating environments, lack of choice and consequence, characters that are unlikable, and a story that seems like it's been put through a blender. To say that it was a trainwreck would be an understatement.

But despite all this, I am still interested in this franchise, although not as much as I would have been if Bioware had actually gotten these things right the first time. This brings us to Dragon Age 3. I don't have high hopes for the game because of my history with the franchise. I do hope that it's great and that they do fix their mistakes and find an identity for this game. Lord knows, it ****ing needs one.

[iOnlySignIn]

The design of Elves, Qunari, and various Demons went through Art Shift from DAO to DAII.

With Varric, the Arishok, Tallis, and Fenris we know much more about Surface Dwaves, Qunari, and Tevinter.

Expect the same in DA3.

Modifié par iOnlySignIn, 15 février 2013 - 12:07 .

[Wulfram]

I dislike having too many races in a world. Which sounds horribly racist, so I should say I mean in the fantasy sense of Elves and Dwarves and whatnot. Usually once you get past 3 or 4 they end up being poorly defined and boring, and you have to stretch quite hard to give them all a proper place in history. And one of them probably ends up being comic relief.

I don't see why Dalish and City Elves should look different, aside from tattoos and clothing. They're the same people, who only diverged 700 years ago.

[riverbanks]

There's a lot of unnecessary vitriol in the OP that I'm not touching, but this part:

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

For example, the Dalish elves look identical to the city elves aside from some tattoos. If you put the same facial tattoo on a city elf, they are instantly Dalish. This makes me think that the artists don't really care to put in the time to make a visual culture for the Dalish elves. They applied the same idea to the dwarves without a caste. But without that brand on their faces, we would never know they are without caste. 

Yes, because that's exactly what they are. An elf is an elf, a dwarf is a dwarf. They don't become different races because they belong to different social classes. 

The difference between a Dalish elf and a city elf is socio-cultural, the difference between a noble dwarf and a casteless dwarf is socio-economical. A city elf who joins a clan will absorb their culture, earn their paintings, and become culturally Dalish, a Dalish elf who abandons the clan will absorb the city culture and become a city elf. A noble dwarf who loses their caste will be branded and thrown to the ghetto to fend for themselves or starve trying, a casteless dwarf who rises to nobility will move to the quarters and live the good life, a surface dwarf is just a dwarf who once had to pack their stuff and go. But they'll still be an elf or a dwarf at the end of the day. That's their race. They don't need be given phenotypical variations like they're different species of the same family because... they're not. Aesthetically, they're literally just an elf/dwarf who got a tattoo.

Modifié par riverbanks, 15 février 2013 - 12:22 .

[Yendor_Trawz]

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

If there's one thing the Dragon Age games need it's some new races.

I don't think so IMO. It just needs to have more interesting characters from within those existing races.

A poorly written or realised new race wouldn't add anything to my game except a new race to be 'meh' about. I'd prefer deeper characters and fleshed out stories from within the realm I already know.

[EpicBoot2daFace]

riverbanks wrote...

There's a lot of unnecessary vitriol in the OP that I'm not touching, but this part:

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

For example, the Dalish elves look identical to the city elves aside from some tattoos. If you put the same facial tattoo on a city elf, they are instantly Dalish. This makes me think that the artists don't really care to put in the time to make a visual culture for the Dalish elves. They applied the same idea to the dwarves without a caste. But without that brand on their faces, we would never know they are without caste. 

Yes, because that's exactly what they are. An elf is an elf, a dwarf is a dwarf. They don't become different races because they belong to different social classes. 

The difference between a Dalish elf and a city elf is socio-cultural, the difference between a noble dwarf and a casteless dwarf is socio-economical. A city elf who joins a clan will absorb their culture, earn their paintings, and become culturally Dalish, a Dalish elf who abandons the clan will absorb the city culture and become a city elf. A noble dwarf who loses their caste will be branded and thrown to the ghetto to fend for themselves or starve trying, a casteless dwarf who rises to nobility will move to the quarters and live the good life, a surface dwarf is just a dwarf who once had to pack their stuff and go. But they'll still be an elf or a dwarf at the end of the day. That's their race. They don't need be given phenotypical variations like they're different species of the same family because... they're not. Aesthetically, they're literally just an elf/dwarf who got a tattoo.

I think you really missed the point here. I wasn't suggesting that Dalish elves should be a different race. I was suggesting that they should have more distinctive features that make them Dalish and tell a story about their culture and what they've been through. A facial tattoo just isn't enough to convey any of that.

[Yendor_Trawz]

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

I think you really missed the point here. I wasn't suggesting that Dalish elves should be a different race. I was suggesting that they should have more distinctive features that make them Dalish and tell a story about their culture and what they've been through. A facial tattoo just isn't enough to convey any of that.

What could they have? They are still the same race. Exactly the same physical phenotype.

Anything you do to make them different is superficial by definition. The difference has to be in the story and behaviour.

[Thibax]

what about a plant humanoid race?

[EpicBoot2daFace]

Yendor_Trawz wrote...

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

I think you really missed the point here. I wasn't suggesting that Dalish elves should be a different race. I was suggesting that they should have more distinctive features that make them Dalish and tell a story about their culture and what they've been through. A facial tattoo just isn't enough to convey any of that.

What could they have? They are still the same race. Exactly the same physical phenotype.

Anything you do to make them different is superficial by definition. The difference has to be in the story and behaviour.

In the games, they're portrayed as wanderers and a tribal people. Yet, their only distinguishing feature is a facial tattoo. If we look at tribal people IRL, we know that they wear their culture proudly. You can't miss it. So, why are the Dalish so mundane? I think it has a lot to do with the original question: "why is the art in this game so boring and unimaginative?"

The dwarves of each caste should look different on a visual level. The Nobles should look like nobility. They are the high rollers of Orzammar. The Casteless should look very poor, but also have a visual culture of their own. I think you should be able to look at a casteless dwarf and tell he's a casteless dwarf without having to look at the mark on his face.

This sort of stuff helps make the universe of Dragon Age feel more alive and complex. I can't imagine the artists saying "Well, let's just put a tattoo on his face and call it a day." Although, it seems like that's exactly what happened. There was a chance to correct this stuff in the sequel and it never happened.

Modifié par EpicBoot2daFace, 15 février 2013 - 01:11 .

[The Hierophant]

Yendor_Trawz wrote...

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

I think you really missed the point here. I wasn't suggesting that Dalish elves should be a different race. I was suggesting that they should have more distinctive features that make them Dalish and tell a story about their culture and what they've been through. A facial tattoo just isn't enough to convey any of that.

What could they have? They are still the same race. Exactly the same physical phenotype.

Anything you do to make them different is superficial by definition. The difference has to be in the story and behaviour.

The Dalish live in the wilderness so you'd expect to see a difference in physique, and a weathering of their facial features that should contrast with the elves that live in a less physically intensive environment like a city.
The casteless are a destitute poverty stricken people so you'd expect them to look gaunt, are in serious need of a grooming whereas their caste counterparts  are well fed, clothed, and could afford grooming tools.

[Rawgrim]

Whats the point in introducing new races when we can only play a human anyway?

[XX-Pyro]

Rawgrim wrote...

Whats the point in introducing new races when we can only play a human anyway?

Yeah seriously Bioware this, why not have everyone be human other races are just a waste of resources like come on. 

Also, the the topic creator, they have the Fex.

[Herr Uhl]

Wulfram wrote...

I don't see why Dalish and City Elves should look different, aside from tattoos and clothing. They're the same people, who only diverged 700 years ago.

And on top of that they're all purebreeds. There has to have been some overlap between Dalish and City Elves as well.

Edit: As to the topic, no more races. There is already one that hasn't even been seen (fex) and one that should arguably be counted as a race (ghasts). 6 is plenty.

Modifié par Herr Uhl, 15 février 2013 - 03:15 .

[nightscrawl]

No thanks. The limited variety of races is one of the reasons I like DA to begin with.

[Yendor_Trawz]

The Hierophant wrote...

The Dalish live in the wilderness so you'd expect to see a difference in physique, and a weathering of their facial features that should contrast with the elves that live in a less physically intensive environment like a city.
The casteless are a destitute poverty stricken people so you'd expect them to look gaunt, are in serious need of a grooming whereas their caste counterparts  are well fed, clothed, and could afford grooming tools.

Some of those casteless Carta dwarves could be living a pretty good life, comfort and food wise. And I'm pretty sure knew how to steal a comb. The few dusters we got to see looked at least a little hungry and poorly clothed to me. I was happy with the subtle difference between castes. Being noble is no guarantee of a fat healthy appearance, That''s just using stereotypes.

I'm not sure Dalish elves should look that much more weathered. Maybe have a slightly darker hue to the skin, but they have tents and aravels and reasonable comfort for semi nomads. They're not bushmen of the Kalahari. The CE could have looked a little more gaunt I guess. But it wasn't an immersion breaker for me. 

Modifié par Yendor_Trawz, 15 février 2013 - 03:46 .

[Heimdall]

I think three non-human races is plenty.

[sarakirrer]

Yendor_Trawz wrote...

Some of those casteless Carta dwarves could be living a pretty good life, comfort and food wise. And I'm pretty sure knew how to steal a comb. The few dusters we got to see, and I'm thinking more of DA:O (i've tried to block out most of DA2), looked a little hungry and poorly clothed to me. I was happy with the subtle difference between castes. Being noble is no guarantee of a fat healthy appearance, That''s just using stereotypes.

I'm not sure Dalish elves should look that much more weathered. Maybe have a slightly darker hue to the skin, but they have tents and aravels and reasonable comfort for semi nomads. They're not bushmen of the Kalahari. The CE could have looked a little more gaunt I guess. But it wasn't an immersion breaker for me. 

This was my first thought, too, but after thinking about it, I don't know. It seemed like, at least in Ferelden, the Dalish generally stuck to forests and heavily wooded areas--thus why they primarily craft with wood, leather, and halla bone. If that's true (and I'm not a lore expert, so I honestly don't know if it IS true that they tend to stick to the forest), then it makes sense for them to have a pale skintone. I'd actually expect the CITY elves to look more weathered, because they seem to lead a more "stressful" existence in the cramped, abusive conditions of the alienage.

Regarding meaningful physical differences, I'm not sure that enough time has passed between the separation of the Dalish and the city elves for it to make sense that either type of elf has evolved to look different from the other.

I also don't really find the tattoos a cop-out like the OP does. The tattoos DO mark them as Dalish, and they make it obvious that an elf IS Dalish. To me, that amounts to "proudly wearing your culture on your sleeve." However, I would definitely love to see more variety in the outfits they wear, because that certainly doesn't reflect their culture--city elves usually wear clothes similar to humans, and that makes sense, but I'd like to see the Dalish with a different style (beyond just... not wearing shoes... because... huh??). This also goes for buying armor from the Dalish--rather than just being "leather armor with a few swirly designs on," it should really be a different style from leather armor crafted by humans.

[The Six Path of Pain]

Isn't there another race called the Fex living in Par Vollen?

[KiwiQuiche]

Unless they pull a Elders Scroll's move and let us play as any race, I don't want new races introduced. Bad enough I can only be a lousy human.

[The Hierophant]

Yendor_Trawz wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

The Dalish live in the wilderness so you'd expect to see a difference in physique, and a weathering of their facial features that should contrast with the elves that live in a less physically intensive environment like a city.
The casteless are a destitute poverty stricken people so you'd expect them to look gaunt, are in serious need of a grooming whereas their caste counterparts  are well fed, clothed, and could afford grooming tools.

Some of those casteless Carta dwarves could be living a pretty good life, comfort and food wise. And I'm pretty sure knew how to steal a comb. The few dusters we got to see looked at least a little hungry and poorly clothed to me. I was happy with the subtle difference between castes. Being noble is no guarantee of a fat healthy appearance, That's just using stereotypes.

Now that i think about all of DA's dwarves are stocky, so lorewise is it even possible for any of them to look skinny?

[Yendor_Trawz]

Double post oopsie.

Modifié par Yendor_Trawz, 15 février 2013 - 04:23 .

[Yendor_Trawz]

The Hierophant wrote...

Now that i think about all of DA's dwarves are stocky, so lorewise is it even possible for any of them to look skinny?

Don't worry I had that thought too. They are fighting against a pretty well established phenotype.

They would probably die before skinny was a option.

[Yendor_Trawz]

sarakirrer wrote...

This was my first thought, too, but after thinking about it, I don't know. It seemed like, at least in Ferelden, the Dalish generally stuck to forests and heavily wooded areas--thus why they primarily craft with wood, leather, and halla bone. If that's true (and I'm not a lore expert, so I honestly don't know if it IS true that they tend to stick to the forest), then it makes sense for them to have a pale skintone. I'd actually expect the CITY elves to look more weathered, because they seem to lead a more "stressful" existence in the cramped, abusive conditions of the alienage.

Regarding meaningful physical differences, I'm not sure that enough time has passed between the separation of the Dalish and the city elves for it to make sense that either type of elf has evolved to look different from the other.

I also don't really find the tattoos a cop-out like the OP does. The tattoos DO mark them as Dalish, and they make it obvious that an elf IS Dalish. To me, that amounts to "proudly wearing your culture on your sleeve." However, I would definitely love to see more variety in the outfits they wear, because that certainly doesn't reflect their culture--city elves usually wear clothes similar to humans, and that makes sense, but I'd like to see the Dalish with a different style (beyond just... not wearing shoes... because... huh??). This also goes for buying armor from the Dalish--rather than just being "leather armor with a few swirly designs on," it should really be a different style from leather armor crafted by humans.

I'm pretty much with you. I guess it comes down to what a 'weathered' look may be. Weathered by the sunny life in the woods (and yes, I considered all those lovely shady trees) , or weathered by dust and dirt and poverty in the alienage. It can go either way.

For me, the tattoos to the DE also gain importance because most non nomadic cultures express heritage and status through their artifacts. The DE can't lug warehouses of goods around (although they have plenty of statues and totems around in DA:O) when they are on the move, so a lot of their cultural preservation is non material, such as story telling and face painting.

I do agree about the clothing for the most part. Although how distinctive they make it is tempered by the need to not be conspicuous, They are hunters after all.

I mostly wanted Master Arathorn to take more than 8 seconds to make my Ironbark bow. After his little speech to Nervous Apprentice about taking time and great care to perfect your craft blah blah blah, it was a WTF moment for me.

[ShadyKat]

The Six Path of Pain wrote...

Isn't there another race called the Fex living in Par Vollen?

Yeah, Bioware hinted at them before DA2 launched. They never said what they looked like, just that they share tje same island as the Qunari.