67 réponses à ce sujet

[Yendor_Trawz]

Sutekh wrote...

MisanthropePrime wrote...

The dalish and city elves within a nation tend not to live in drastically different environments. Someone who's born in London does not look that much different than someone born Leicester. On the other hand, elves from two different regions do look different: Merrill looks completely different from Zevran, as well she should.

That's because London and Leicester are both cities, and I'm pretty sure the average Londonian has access to the same diet as the guy from Leicester, and globally has the same way of life. Environment isn't only climate and geography. Dalish, nomadic, forest dwelling hunters and City Elves, urban, (very) lower class workers don't live in the same environment at all.

Yes, but is the different environment enough to manifest significantly different appearances, outside of clothing? Maybe the example above should have been lower class Londoner with country farmer. How different would they physically be?

Even in our society, poor (especially Western poor) can be as well fed, groomed, healthy as any affluent person. Someone upthread tried to say common dwarves wouldn't be well groomed. I disagree.

The CE are shown to be enslaved and impoversished for sure, and there is a ghetto look to the alienage.
But many City Elves are well cared for servants, as some of them reveal. Are they expected to look starving as well?

 I think it wouldnt be accurate to give them radically different looks. I think the differences are more individual and circumstantial.

[EpicBoot2daFace]

Yendor_Trawz wrote...

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

I repeat: I am not talking about genetic diversity among the elves or the dwarves. I am talking about cosmetic differences that display their culture. Facial tattoos are too simplistic and don't convey any sort of culture. When you can put the same tattoo on a city elf and he instantly looks Dalish, that's not good.

I would say that the tattoos do display culture. They may designate role, experience or heirarchy. I dont know enough about Dalish tattoo lore to say for sure.

But ask any Polynesian about their tattoos, or an Aboriginal about their face painting, and yes, it's very deeply a cultural symbol to them.

And I would never dispute that. What I'm saying is that it is not enough. Here is an example:



What does their appearance tell you about their culture or the Dalish as a people? I can tell you what Bioware did. They simply took the existing armor from Origins and changed the color values to make it green. That's the extent of their efforts to add "culture" to the Dalish. Now, you tell me, is that not a lazy effort? Shouldn't there be more to it than that?

[EpicBoot2daFace]

Faerunner wrote...

Maybe the fact that they're wearing existing armour with only different colors is a statement about their culture. The elves have lost almost all of their old culture and lore. A few elvish phrases, books, gods, crafting techniques, and artistic designs are all the Dalish have been able to restore in centuries. They say all the time how they haven't gotten back a fragment of what they want. It's possible they don't have a rich enough tapestry of "ooh, ahh, exotic" looking designs to enthrall the viewer. It's possible that they have to suplement their daily wearables with designs borrowed from neighboring humanoid races until they're able to recreate their own.

The fact that your trying to explain this away using established lore cracks me up.

[MisanthropePrime]

Faerunner wrote...

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

Yendor_Trawz wrote...

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

I repeat: I am not talking about genetic diversity among the elves or the dwarves. I am talking about cosmetic differences that display their culture. Facial tattoos are too simplistic and don't convey any sort of culture. When you can put the same tattoo on a city elf and he instantly looks Dalish, that's not good.

I would say that the tattoos do display culture. They may designate role, experience or heirarchy. I dont know enough about Dalish tattoo lore to say for sure.

But ask any Polynesian about their tattoos, or an Aboriginal about their face painting, and yes, it's very deeply a cultural symbol to them.

And I would never dispute that. What I'm saying is that it is not enough. Here is an example:



What does their appearance tell you about their culture or the Dalish as a people? I can tell you what Bioware did. They simply took the existing armor from Origins and changed the color values to make it green. That's the extent of their efforts to add "culture" to the Dalish. Now, you tell me, is that not a lazy effort? Shouldn't there be more to it than that?

Maybe the fact that they're wearing existing armour with only different colors is a statement about their culture. The elves have lost almost all of their old culture and lore. A few elvish phrases, books, gods, crafting techniques, and artistic designs are all the Dalish have been able to restore in centuries. They say all the time how they haven't gotten back a fragment of what they want. It's possible they don't have a rich enough tapestry of "ooh, ahh, exotic" looking designs to enthrall the viewer. It's possible that they have to suplement their daily wearables with designs borrowed from neighboring humanoid races until they're able to recreate their own.

So we're just going to ignore the clover shaped shields made of enchanted wood, then?



(We should also ignore the fact that the Orlesian knockoff of Aveline's shield also looks like that, though).

[Yendor_Trawz]

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

Faerunner wrote...

Maybe the fact that they're wearing existing armour with only different colors is a statement about their culture. The elves have lost almost all of their old culture and lore. A few elvish phrases, books, gods, crafting techniques, and artistic designs are all the Dalish have been able to restore in centuries. They say all the time how they haven't gotten back a fragment of what they want. It's possible they don't have a rich enough tapestry of "ooh, ahh, exotic" looking designs to enthrall the viewer. It's possible that they have to suplement their daily wearables with designs borrowed from neighboring humanoid races until they're able to recreate their own.

The fact that your trying to explain this away using established lore cracks me up.

There is merit in the argument. The Dalish are, currently, culturally in limbo. Would that lead them to be less or more inclined to display signs of their culture? Less if there are fewer true craftsmen around to produce quailty they are proud of. Possibly more if they feel it is dying out.

 Maybe we can parallel that with game design in our own culture (Head explodes)

[Danny Boy 7]

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

I repeat: I am not talking about genetic diversity among the elves or the dwarves. I am talking about cosmetic differences that display their culture. Facial tattoos are too simplistic and don't convey any sort of culture. When you can put the same tattoo on a city elf and he instantly looks Dalish, that's not good.

But you are asking for that. The tatoos are supposed to be the only thing that separates a Dalish elf from a City elf. They are genetically the same, they live within human nations and eat typically the same food. Take away a polynesian's tatoos and he looks like a hispanic. Not to mention that City Elves tend to run away from the city and join said Dalish I don't see the issue.

Now if you're saying an elf with tattoos suddenly looks like a dalish and that should be rectified than I agree. But they now also have the accent which seperates them from their city living cousins. It's significant enough  that when you speak with Pol you can see why he's different.

[Danny Boy 7]

MisanthropePrime wrote...

Faerunner wrote...

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

Yendor_Trawz wrote...

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

I repeat: I am not talking about genetic diversity among the elves or the dwarves. I am talking about cosmetic differences that display their culture. Facial tattoos are too simplistic and don't convey any sort of culture. When you can put the same tattoo on a city elf and he instantly looks Dalish, that's not good.

I would say that the tattoos do display culture. They may designate role, experience or heirarchy. I dont know enough about Dalish tattoo lore to say for sure.

But ask any Polynesian about their tattoos, or an Aboriginal about their face painting, and yes, it's very deeply a cultural symbol to them.

And I would never dispute that. What I'm saying is that it is not enough. Here is an example:



What does their appearance tell you about their culture or the Dalish as a people? I can tell you what Bioware did. They simply took the existing armor from Origins and changed the color values to make it green. That's the extent of their efforts to add "culture" to the Dalish. Now, you tell me, is that not a lazy effort? Shouldn't there be more to it than that?

Maybe the fact that they're wearing existing armour with only different colors is a statement about their culture. The elves have lost almost all of their old culture and lore. A few elvish phrases, books, gods, crafting techniques, and artistic designs are all the Dalish have been able to restore in centuries. They say all the time how they haven't gotten back a fragment of what they want. It's possible they don't have a rich enough tapestry of "ooh, ahh, exotic" looking designs to enthrall the viewer. It's possible that they have to suplement their daily wearables with designs borrowed from neighboring humanoid races until they're able to recreate their own.

So we're just going to ignore the clover shaped shields made of enchanted wood, then?



(We should also ignore the fact that the Orlesian knockoff of Aveline's shield also looks like that, though).

The Orlesian knock off of elven shields you mean?

[addiction21]

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

Faerunner wrote...

Maybe the fact that they're wearing existing armour with only different colors is a statement about their culture. The elves have lost almost all of their old culture and lore. A few elvish phrases, books, gods, crafting techniques, and artistic designs are all the Dalish have been able to restore in centuries. They say all the time how they haven't gotten back a fragment of what they want. It's possible they don't have a rich enough tapestry of "ooh, ahh, exotic" looking designs to enthrall the viewer. It's possible that they have to suplement their daily wearables with designs borrowed from neighboring humanoid races until they're able to recreate their own.

The fact that your trying to explain this away using established lore cracks me up.

Its better then the tired and trite "BioWare is lazy" argument you are putting forth.

Not like they are a huge departure from the Dalish in DA:O

Also no I don't think anymore races need to be forced into the setting.

[CuriousArtemis]

I agree that they need more than tattoos and accents. They should wear different clothing. They should style their hair differently. They should adorn themselves differently... different shoes, jewelry, clothing items. I have a feeling this is something the writers and artists want/ed to do any way but didn't have the time or resources in DA2.

[LinksOcarina]

Faerunner wrote...

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

Faerunner wrote...

Maybe the fact that they're wearing existing armour with only different colors is a statement about their culture. The elves have lost almost all of their old culture and lore. A few elvish phrases, books, gods, crafting techniques, and artistic designs are all the Dalish have been able to restore in centuries. They say all the time how they haven't gotten back a fragment of what they want. It's possible they don't have a rich enough tapestry of "ooh, ahh, exotic" looking designs to enthrall the viewer. It's possible that they have to suplement their daily wearables with designs borrowed from neighboring humanoid races until they're able to recreate their own.

The fact that your trying to explain this away using established lore cracks me up.

Aren't graphics supposed to visually reflect established lore?

If we're constantly told that the Dalish haven't recovered many fragments of their ancient elvish culture, then their physical manner and dress shouldn't be overly exotic to contradict those statements. They know much of human society and invention but little to none of their own, so it makes sense that their society wouldn't look too different from human societies. Just as they speak the human tongue but pepper their speech with elvish words and phrases, it makes sense that they wear human armor but decorate them with elvish colors and designs.

take that a step further, and talk about their cultural differences through rituals and beliefs. That alone makes them more diverse. Heck, all the Dalish clans are different from one another as well, from what I understand.

You can also look at human cities in different ways based on their cultures. For example, Ferelden is culturally different than say Orlais, through a number of different ways. Customs, dress, traditions, fighting prowess, all of this defines them as a nation, which makes them unique enough to be considered more valuable as a "race", which is often used as an artificial culture maker in table top games.

[Medhia Nox]

While I do enjoy other races - I don't feel that it instantly makes something interesting.

Conan's Hyboria is nearly completely human - and yet, is fascinating because the characters are fascinating.

On the opposite spectrum - I'm playing The Witcher (I know it's a taboo subject) and... nature elves and Scottish dwarves are hardly innovative or at all interesting to me.

As for more outlandish races - I can wrap my imagination around them - I just find them tedious and gimmicky (I'm looking at you Asari)

Again - since it needs to be said to attempt to avoid rage (doesn't always work) - this is just opinion.

[Thibax]

I really want a totally nature race with a graceful appearance
So enchanting!

[Versus Omnibus]

I only support two more races and that's it. I don't want a repeat of Warcraft.

That said, if I had to pick more races for Dragon Age I would like maybe Orcs and a humanoid Dragon race.

[Medhia Nox]

I want humanoid aardvarks... and an evil race of honey badger-men who don't give a ****.

[LinksOcarina]

Medhia Nox wrote...

While I do enjoy other races - I don't feel that it instantly makes something interesting.

Conan's Hyboria is nearly completely human - and yet, is fascinating because the characters are fascinating.

On the opposite spectrum - I'm playing The Witcher (I know it's a taboo subject) and... nature elves and Scottish dwarves are hardly innovative or at all interesting to me.

I agree. The Witcher fails to give the races any sense of culture beyond just being stereotypical. Elves in The Witcher really feel out of place, and the only semblence of personality they have is through the Scoia'tael and Ivoreth, which I admit is a cool idea to have an elven guerilla force out there. I would even argue that most of the human kingdoms in The Witcher are fairly flat, but thats another argument for another day. 

That said, what is the historical background as to why they are fighting? Persecution is an easy answer, but its also very vague and uninteresting. Compare the Scoia'tael to the Dalish now for a moment, or dare I say it, the Thalmor from Elder Scrolls. Which of these groups has the most culturally rich history behind them that makes them unique? 

That is how they become unique. It is easy to throw in elves and dwarves and dragonborns and tieflings into any setting, but does it make sense other than "they exist, deal with it?" kind of forced logic? 

Modifié par LinksOcarina, 17 février 2013 - 04:26 .