127 réponses à ce sujet

[AdmiralCheez]

CynicalShep wrote...

I'll play the devil advocate's advocate. ME is about robbing people of choices. You killed thousands of mechs, mercs, civilians and many other individuals - hostile or otherwise. You robbed each and every one of them of choice. What if they wanted to open a dog shelter? What if they wanted to get a new job? What if they wanted to rob people of choices just like you do? You denied them the opportunity. 

/drunkdon'tpayattention

It ain't my fault, man!  They just keep standing in front of my gun while it's firing!

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

IRL, I would choose destroy. The decision of how to end this conflict came from way above my pay grade. My orders were clear: "Dead reapers is how we end this."

[teh DRUMPf!!]

 I weighed-in on the "IRL" argument not long ago...

Be warned, it's a bit lengthy.

[Link.]

Modifié par HYR 2.0, 15 février 2013 - 06:33 .

[cyrslash1974]

What ? Mass Effect is not real life ? I have to wake up ... :-)

[Sajuro]

CynicalShep wrote...

I'll play the devil advocate's advocate. ME is about robbing people of choices. You killed thousands of mechs, mercs, civilians and many other individuals - hostile or otherwise. You robbed each and every one of them of choice. What if they wanted to open a dog shelter? What if they wanted to get a new job? What if they wanted to rob people of choices just like you do? You denied them the opportunity. 

/drunkdon'tpayattention

That merc you killed in ME2, he was two days away from retirement.
Who's the real monster

[MegaSovereign]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

The-Biotic-God wrote...

Playing the devil's advocate here. With Synthesis you rob people of one choice but then give them the ability to make so many more through their upgrade.

Let's say someone gives me a sex change operation in my sleep, without my consent.  Is this massive violation of my body and privacy really not that big a deal because I can pee standing up now?

That analogy is flawed because you had to trade physical traits for others. Your analogy is actually closer to Catalyst's Reaper solution since it's a forced physical change rather than an acquistion of additional abilities.

With synthesis you retain the same physical form and abilities, but with upgrades (that the game doesn't quite specify).

Modifié par The-Biotic-God, 15 février 2013 - 06:48 .

[CynicalShep]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

It ain't my fault, man!  They just keep standing in front of my gun while it's firing!

Shots! Shots! Shots, shots, shots!/x3
Eeeeverybody!

Sajuro wrote...

That merc you killed in ME2, he was two days away from retirement.
Who's the real monster

Maybe he had a nice place to retire to, a nice sum in the account and a harem. And you ruined it!

[AdmiralCheez]

The-Biotic-God wrote...

That analogy is flawed because you had to trade physical traits for others. Your analogy is actually closer to Catalyst's Reaper solution since it's a forced physical change rather than an acquistion of additional abilities.

With synthesis you retain the same physical form and abilities, but with upgrades (that the game doesn't quite specify).

Okay, say I get man-parts in addition to my natural set of gear.  Everything is the same about me except the "upgrade" which gives me "additional abilities."  Despite whatever benefits may come, was it okay for some jerk to break into my house and perform unwanted surgery on me?

Imagine the same guy broke into your house and gave you a vagina...

[Hadeedak]

@noobcannon: Read both posts. Was commenting on both. It's a bit clumsy (in my opinion) to throw a Hitler out there. And not just because everyone does.

I still don't know what Katrina Shepard would do, beyond apparently kneejerk into turning this into ANOTHER ending thread argument. I'm such a hero. >>

Modifié par Hadeedak, 15 février 2013 - 07:19 .

[dahellraider]

screw that, I'd choose control, he'll I'll not only become immortal in the processes, but basically a god haha

[Reofeir]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

The-Biotic-God wrote...

Playing the devil's advocate here. With Synthesis you rob people of one choice but then give them the ability to make so many more through their upgrade.

Let's say someone gives me a sex change operation in my sleep, without my consent.  Is this massive violation of my body and privacy really not that big a deal because I can pee standing up now?

I would say that would be a huge plus, yes. 

(In all seriousness, synthesis is just an ending I wish was never in ME to begin with. Destroy and Control made sense, too much "what ifs?!" in synthesis and no hints to it in the story. The endings might of been better if it was just the two options, honestly.)

[Clips7]

I think everybody would choose destroy...when thoughts of your family comes into play..if they're still alive missing etc....one would want this war to end for good...especially after going thru all that you had experienced over the 3 games in general.....seeing entire races lost and millions being decimated,.. seeing the earth itself on the brink of extinction?....even after what the catalyst relays to you, i think realistically most would pick destroy.

[BetrayerOfNihil]

I'd pick Control, since people seem to somehow have a problem with free Nanotechnological Augmentation for all, and so I could show that "absolute power corrupts absolutely" crap is just a bunch of a trite garbage spread by people who have no faith in Man being capable of resisting temptation. I won't needlessly sacrifice the Geth either.

[Eterna]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

Yes.  What a dumb question.

So, would you allow someone to remove your own free will so that you would automatically do the right thing without any choice?  Would you let someone do the same to your friends and family?

A related question: How much power is the law allowed to have?  Can a thought be considered a crime?

Removing some choice does not mean removing all of your free will. Do you not have free will because you're not allowed to murder someone without consequence? 

In Control, people will face consequences for disturbing the peace, how is  that any different from how we live now? 

[CR121691]

I will destroy them. The child cannot be trusted.

[Argolas]

Eterna5 wrote...

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

Yes.  What a dumb question.

So, would you allow someone to remove your own free will so that you would automatically do the right thing without any choice?  Would you let someone do the same to your friends and family?

A related question: How much power is the law allowed to have?  Can a thought be considered a crime?

Removing some choice does not mean removing all of your free will. Do you not have free will because you're not allowed to murder someone without consequence? 

In Control, people will face consequences for disturbing the peace, how is  that any different from how we live now? 

The real equivalent would be the police. I think there are two major differences:

- The police (at least in democracies) is at least indirectly empowered by the very people it is able to punish and also recruited directly among them, so it is a a form of self-control of the society that can be changed if the people demands it, for example by changing the law. The Reapers, however, are controlled by an AI that has "no connection" (ingame quote) to those it watches over, it is a completely foreign force that answers to nobody, and if they disagree they can only hope that the AI listens and does, by any chance, care about their opinion because the last version didn't.

- The police is only allowed and able to do certain things to me if I break the law, in the worst case I have to go to prison, and they are only allowed to hurt me as much as necissary if I actively resist. The Reapers are a force that can and probably will use manipulation and mess with my brain without me ever realizing it. So while I know what the police does and I thus don't have to be afraid of them, I would be terrified by the Reapers even if I knew they are only here to protect me.

[Eterna]

Argolas wrote...


- The police (at least in democracies) is at least indirectly empowered by the very people it is able to punish and also recruited directly among them, so it is a a form of self-control of the society that can be changed if the people demands it, for example by changing the law. The Reapers, however, are controlled by an AI that has "no connection" (ingame quote) to those it watches over, it is a completely foreign force that answers to nobody, and if they disagree they can only hope that the AI listens and does, by any chance, care about their opinion because the last version didn't.

The Reapers do not Police Society. They do not inforce the speed limit, they do not pull you over. They protect Organic life in the galaxy from extinction events or times of great strife. Any Society that disagrees with the notion of no war and wish to have such laws overturned really isn't worth giving a **** about. 

The problem is that you're assuming the Reapers are an active force that regularily engages with the public and enforce laws that affect a persons everyday life, That they sit about waiting for you to break the law so they can lazer beam you. This is not the case, at least to me, and the case your opting for is never shown in the EC. I feel as though the Reapers act as benevolent force, think of them as the Keepers, but on a galatic wide scale. They maintain the Galaxy and the organics that live within it. 

The only reason you would have to fear the Paragon Shepalyst and the Reapers is if you lived in and actively supported a Nation which wishes to pursue galatic wide war which would result in the deaths of countless people. 

- The police is only allowed and able to do certain things to me if I break the law, in the worst case I have to go to prison, and they are only allowed to hurt me as much as necissary if I actively resist. The Reapers are a force that can and probably will use manipulation and mess with my brain without me ever realizing it. So while I know what the police does and I thus don't have to be afraid of them, I would be terrified by the Reapers even if I knew they are only here to protect me.

You'd have to be a ruthless genocidal dictator for the Reapers to even care about you, and in that case I don;t think anyone would lose sleep over you being lazer beamed. 

The Reapers are not a Police force, They are the Janitors and Safeguards of Organic life. They protect against, extinction events and galatic wide war, nothing more. 

Modifié par Eterna5, 15 février 2013 - 09:49 .

[cyrslash1974]

In real life, as the catalyst don't want to (or can't) listen or understand how his logic is now wrong and stupid, I would shoot him.

[Eterna]

cyrslash1974 wrote...

In real life, as the catalyst don't want to (or can't) listen or understand how his logic is now wrong and stupid, I would shoot him.

Which would do nothing and doom you and the entire earth to extinction. 

[KyreneZA]

@OP

While don't often agree with you, I find value in your thought provoking threads. In real life I'd be just tempted enough to choose Control...

[o Ventus]

Eterna5 wrote...

"I disagree with you persecuting dangerous warmongers who would have caused wars which would result in the deaths of countless lives!"

Yeah, so many people are going to disagree. 

Are you mentally challenged? Or did you actually miss the point so far to where it came back around like a boomerang and smacked you in the side of the head?

Do you enjoy looking like an idiot?

[Jadebaby]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

In real life...

The endings wouldn't exist.

Reality has better narrative coherence than ME3.

[GimmeDaGun]

Jadebaby wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

In real life...

The endings wouldn't exist.

Reality has better narrative coherence than ME3.

Actually in reality there would be no ME at all... ... and life unfotunately has no better narrative coherence. It is is as irrational and chaotic as it can get... humans are not calculated and scripted beings, nor history is.

Modifié par GimmeDaGun, 15 février 2013 - 11:27 .

[Jadebaby]

GimmeDaGun wrote...

Jadebaby wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

In real life...

The endings wouldn't exist.

Reality has better narrative coherence than ME3.

Actually in reality there would be no ME at all... ... and life unfotunately has no better narrative coherence. It is is as irrational and chaotic as it can get... humans are not calculated and scripted beings, nor history is.

It's not about being calculating and scripted. It's about being able to have motivations and reasons to do certain things, whether it be calculated or impulsive, people can generally tell you why they do certain things.

[GimmeDaGun]

Jadebaby wrote...

GimmeDaGun wrote...

Jadebaby wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

In real life...

The endings wouldn't exist.

Reality has better narrative coherence than ME3.

Actually in reality there would be no ME at all... ... and life unfotunately has no better narrative coherence. It is is as irrational and chaotic as it can get... humans are not calculated and scripted beings, nor history is.

It's not about being calculating and scripted. It's about being able to have motivations and reasons to do certain things, whether it be calculated or impulsive, people can generally tell you why they do certain things.

I don't want to derail the topic with a debate about how things work in reality, but things are very complicated in real life, so are human motivations, ideas etc.. They are not always consistent and rational. Emotions are not rational in the first place. But ok, lets not derail the topic... I get what you meant to say, only I don't find real life a fitting example for narrative cohherence.  

Modifié par GimmeDaGun, 15 février 2013 - 11:36 .