356 réponses à ce sujet

[Renmiri1]

abch4 wrote...

fiendishchicken wrote...

I'm with you OP.

I'm at the point where I can only play ME3 for 5 minutes before I have to stop.

It's that bad.

I say this for your own health. Go and socialise with real people, you won't be so weirdly affected by a piece of fiction. 

You are assuming that he isn't abandoning ME3 to socialize with people.

Which is my case. Pretty much anything is better than playing mE3, even having my teeth drilled 

[SoloShepard]

Renmiri1 wrote...

SoloShepard wrote...

Renmiri1 wrote...

SoloShepard wrote...

I don't think that many people disliked the ending THAT much. I think a few loud people did, and the rest is all groupthink/internet mob/people who don't want to think for themselves jumping on a bandwagon. Whatever you want to call it you would think that after more than a year of whining about it people would get bored and move on. Apparently not.

Attitudes like yours help me get angry all over again.

What you are basically saying is that 

a) I have no idea what I like in a game, I follow the press
Then why didn't I follow the 74 "perfect score" reviews" ?

b)People like me don't exist or are a insignificant part of gamers
Then why did Bioware delay their paid DLC to give a EC for free?

c) The bad ending is "over" and done
How can it be if day after day Bioware and idiots like you refuse to listen ?

Look, if you are one of the people I was referring to I would hardly expect you to agree with me and yelling 'I AM NOT' isn't going to convince me to change my mind, so there's no point in arguing about it. You didn't even respond to anything I said, you just quoted me so you could bring up 3 points I never even made, but which you state are similar to my views in some way. What kind of a chump would let themselves be dragged into defending statements they never made?

I have a right to my opinion the same as you do. If that makes you angry, you're going to be angry a lot..

OK so what point were you making when you said I don't think that many people disliked the ending THAT much. I think a few loud people did, ?

I disliked the game, so am I one of the "a few loud people" ? Are those few loud people unimportant ? Insignificant ?

Well, you gave me an option if I disliked the game and I am not one of the few loud people then I am with "the rest" which you said and the rest is all groupthink/internet mob/people who don't want to think for themselves jumping on a bandwagon . What did you mean by that ?
Are you telling me I don't want to think for myself, just because I don't like something you happen to like ?

The way I see it, you liked the game and instead of respecting people who don't agree with you, you are trying to paint people like me as "a few loud mouths" or idiots that can't think for themsolves and have no idea what to like in a game. If that isn't what you are saying, can you then explain what you meant ?

You say I have a right to my opinion the same as you do but I never said your opinion was invalid, while your post seems to say exactly that about people who  dislike the game. Am I wrong ? I really don't see any respect for my right to have an opinion different than yours, but you can prove me wrong and point to me where did you express that people who disliked the game have the right to, without being tarred and feathered as groupthink idiots or loudmouths.

Your other clueless and offensive statement was you would think that after more than a year of whining about it people would get bored and move on which shows a complete lack of empathy and understanding. To that I answered your post. How can we "haters" move on, when you, bioware and bad game journalists refuse to acknowledge we have the right to have a negative opinion about the game ? All you, BW and the fawning press do is try to paint us as idiots. 

So yeah, ME3 has ended about a year ago, but the offensive statements about anyone who dares not to like the game are still being thrown out daily. You did it yourself, 24 hours ago. So it hasn't been a year and no, I don't get "bored" when I am called a loudmouth or an idiot who has no ability to think for myself. I get angry, not bored.

If you really think you and I have the same right to an opinion, act like it and respect MY opinion and debate it on it's merits, not by calling people who disagree with you incapable of thinking for themselves.

You have it pretty much nailed. I don't like internet mobs. I don't like people who don't think for themselves. And I have no respect or empathy for people who after a full year are still whining about the fact that a game was rushed to market and didn't live up to their expectations. Those are my opinions.

Additionally, I would add that I don't think much of people who walk around all day looking for things to be "offended" by.

So what?

[Dean_the_Young]

iakus wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Why is it that so many people think ME3 would have been better with fewer choices?

Because many bad options =/= a few good options

...and? If you think ME3 had many bad options, removing them doesn't make them good. You'd just have few bad options.

[KevShep]

removed

Modifié par KevShep, 17 février 2013 - 11:35 .

[Renmiri1]

SoloShepard wrote...

Renmiri1 wrote...

SoloShepard wrote...

Renmiri1 wrote...

SoloShepard wrote...

I don't think that many people disliked the ending THAT much. I think a few loud people did, and the rest is all groupthink/internet mob/people who don't want to think for themselves jumping on a bandwagon. Whatever you want to call it you would think that after more than a year of whining about it people would get bored and move on. Apparently not.

Attitudes like yours help me get angry all over again.

What you are basically saying is that 

a) I have no idea what I like in a game, I follow the press
Then why didn't I follow the 74 "perfect score" reviews" ?

b)People like me don't exist or are a insignificant part of gamers
Then why did Bioware delay their paid DLC to give a EC for free?

c) The bad ending is "over" and done
How can it be if day after day Bioware and idiots like you refuse to listen ?

Look, if you are one of the people I was referring to I would hardly expect you to agree with me and yelling 'I AM NOT' isn't going to convince me to change my mind, so there's no point in arguing about it. You didn't even respond to anything I said, you just quoted me so you could bring up 3 points I never even made, but which you state are similar to my views in some way. What kind of a chump would let themselves be dragged into defending statements they never made?

I have a right to my opinion the same as you do. If that makes you angry, you're going to be angry a lot..

OK so what point were you making when you said I don't think that many people disliked the ending THAT much. I think a few loud people did, ?

I disliked the game, so am I one of the "a few loud people" ? Are those few loud people unimportant ? Insignificant ?

Well, you gave me an option if I disliked the game and I am not one of the few loud people then I am with "the rest" which you said and the rest is all groupthink/internet mob/people who don't want to think for themselves jumping on a bandwagon . What did you mean by that ?
Are you telling me I don't want to think for myself, just because I don't like something you happen to like ?

The way I see it, you liked the game and instead of respecting people who don't agree with you, you are trying to paint people like me as "a few loud mouths" or idiots that can't think for themsolves and have no idea what to like in a game. If that isn't what you are saying, can you then explain what you meant ?

You say I have a right to my opinion the same as you do but I never said your opinion was invalid, while your post seems to say exactly that about people who  dislike the game. Am I wrong ? I really don't see any respect for my right to have an opinion different than yours, but you can prove me wrong and point to me where did you express that people who disliked the game have the right to, without being tarred and feathered as groupthink idiots or loudmouths.

Your other clueless and offensive statement was you would think that after more than a year of whining about it people would get bored and move on which shows a complete lack of empathy and understanding. To that I answered your post. How can we "haters" move on, when you, bioware and bad game journalists refuse to acknowledge we have the right to have a negative opinion about the game ? All you, BW and the fawning press do is try to paint us as idiots. 

So yeah, ME3 has ended about a year ago, but the offensive statements about anyone who dares not to like the game are still being thrown out daily. You did it yourself, 24 hours ago. So it hasn't been a year and no, I don't get "bored" when I am called a loudmouth or an idiot who has no ability to think for myself. I get angry, not bored.

If you really think you and I have the same right to an opinion, act like it and respect MY opinion and debate it on it's merits, not by calling people who disagree with you incapable of thinking for themselves.

You have it pretty much nailed. I don't like internet mobs. I don't like people who don't think for themselves. And I have no respect or empathy for people who after a full year are still whining about the fact that a game was rushed to market and didn't live up to their expectations. Those are my opinions.

Additionally, I would add that I don't think much of people who walk around all day looking for things to be "offended" by.

So what?

So you have the right to think taht of people and I have the right to think you are an idiot 

[Arbiter156]

^^ and I think that people who worship the ending are insane... Kinda like sevial.

If someone tells me to "get over it" they should consider that these things DO matter to people, because to many it is not just a game, its an experience with characters whom we empathise with, that it is a narrative with great emotion weight attached to it, that we as humans are emotional creatures, empathetic creatures. So when something like this happens and our emotions are hurt in one way or another, don't have the gall to stand there and say "get over it". If I tore you childhood toys apart I'm pretty sure you wouldn't "get over it".

[3DandBeyond]

sharkboy421 wrote...

Arbiter156 wrote...

each of the endings violate one of the fundamental core themes of the series.

That is my sentiment on them as well.  It sucks man .  But there is really nothing for it anymore.  Just pretend they don't exist?  Sorry wish I could tell you something more :/.

Mine as well.  I fear that people here will not be kind about this, but in truth the average ME player now thinks the slides and their happily ever after effect fixed it all.  They will even say head canon your own ending if you want, and will head canon just how sweet and wonderful control, synthesis, and destroy (but not refuse) makes everything.  And they don't want you to imagine what they really entail-they call that just your imagination and your own cynicism. 

The problem is the choices have no REAL consequences.  They are given powder puff sappy slides to prove that you just saved the galaxy.  But they're idiotic.

The kid is a mess.  He was created without controls by a race that was all about controlling people, and that race had a problem with synthetics.  Makes sense to put no controls then on him. 

He was also created with this idea that some things will inevitably happen-but he was programmed by fallible beings (see above).  So his logic is itself fallible and false.  Something that is inevitable can never be made to be not inevitable.  He also is using the reapers even after he himself says they no longer are a solution.  Faulty logic-he would not do this.

Control-no rational person ever wanted it, and that includes Shepard.  Even the most benevolent of people cannot decide for a whole galaxy and make good choices.  Which Many would Shreaper serve and why can't people see that the whole epilog for it is malevolent and ominous.  The music is geared to make it so and so is the sound of the other voices within Shreaper.  No good can come of this.  And people will be forced to live with reapers alive-creatures that have murdered billions this cycle alone.

Synthesis-it's magic, plain and simple and not an inevitability.  It also is not an evolutionary process that will one day happen.  People do not grow tech.  It's also forced upon people and is very similar in nature to the story of the Krogan-advancement before being ready and the genophage.  No rational person in the story ever wanted this-including Shepard.  Mordin has some real specifics on this and the horror of it.  The kid also says now that they (he and the reapers) know it exists it is inevitable.  That does not mean that it will happen one day naturally-the kid thinks that inevitably one day HE can make it happen, even if Shepard does not do so now.

Destroy-inane.  It makes no sense.  The kid's description of it is garbage (well, so is his for control and synthesis).  EDI dies.  We see no geth in cutscenes.  But we don't even know what the kid's words mean as to what will happen in destroy.  We merely see Shepard must stand right next to the tube in order for his/her magical gun (the one that shot at greater distances before) to be able to hit the exploding tube.  Shepard's engulfed in the explosion which should have all but vaporized any organic material.  And then the pile of rubble.  Most often used soap opera cliff hanger ever-people laying in a crashed car, at a collapsed building, in an exploded building, in an airplane crash, and so on.  Soap operas have been using this scene since they were first on tv a long long time ago.  Shepard can have no idea what choosing destroy means, because none of it in the kid's description makes any sense.

And making a choice at all is predicated on believing what the kid says.  People love to say the cutscenes and slides prove he's being truthful.  Yeah, but they're just as inane as he is.  If I say I wanted a happier win and Shepard and friends can live ending as a possibility, I get told all I want is a cheesy rainbows and bunnies ending.  That's not at all true, but well I say that the slideshow we have now and the cutscenes together exist merely to make everyone think they got a super de dooper happy bunnies and rainbows ending.  But it's all part of some demented pseudo-intellectual mess borrowed from other games and IPs. 

[Kesak12]

I do also OP. Still holding on to the theory that shall not be named.

[3DandBeyond]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

iakus wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Why is it that so many people think ME3 would have been better with fewer choices?

Because many bad options =/= a few good options

...and? If you think ME3 had many bad options, removing them doesn't make them good. You'd just have few bad options.

See I don't think ME3 should have ended with a choice at all.  That's my big problem.  Your actions and all the choices made previously should have brought you to a point where you maybe had to fight harder or do some other things, maybe even sacrifice someone to save someone else if you had miscalculated.  But it wasn't about limiting your choices at the end-it was about re-affirming them.  As I saw it, you'd be faced with decisions along the way, but still acting, fighting, whatever as well.  And a renegade might even be more able to do things right in a timely fashion (because the renegade is more of an actor) whereas for strategy, a paragon might be able to do things right as far as who goes where.

I'm just saying the idea of an end choice is exactly opposite of what the devs talked about.  They even specifically mentioned that ME3 would be able to be more open at the end because it didn't have to funnel things into the next game as 1 and 2 did.

Now, I never believed there'd be endless variety, either, but certainly not this idea of self-limiting choices.

[chemiclord]

sharkboy421 wrote...

Arbiter156 wrote...

each of the endings violate one of the fundamental core themes of the series.

That is my sentiment on them as well.  It sucks man .  But there is really nothing for it anymore.  Just pretend they don't exist?  Sorry wish I could tell you something more :/.

Well, Bioware doesn't agree.

They think the main theme is "Synthetic and Organic conflict" and the tecnological singularity.  You may not think those are the primary themes, but they do.  They don't think they've violated anything... so... now what?

Their story.  Their rules.  Even if it sucks (and yes, it sucks).

Modifié par chemiclord, 18 février 2013 - 03:12 .

[babachewie]

well why don't ya cry about it....saddle bags

[3DandBeyond]

chemiclord wrote...

sharkboy421 wrote...

Arbiter156 wrote...

each of the endings violate one of the fundamental core themes of the series.

That is my sentiment on them as well.  It sucks man .  But there is really nothing for it anymore.  Just pretend they don't exist?  Sorry wish I could tell you something more :/.

Well, Bioware doesn't agree.

They think the main theme is "Synthetic and Organic conflict" and the tecnological singularity.  You may not think those are the primary themes, but they do.  They don't think they've violated anything... so... now what?

Their story.  Their rules.  Even if it sucks (and yes, it sucks).

Problem is most people believe that based upon something Jessica M. said and has since sort of taken back and what the kid says about synthesis being inevitable.  I think that line is misunderstood.  He says basically that now that they know it can happen, it will happen.  What he seems to be saying is that if Shepard won't make it happen this time, then the kid will one day make it happen, even with someone else.

The main theme never was synthetic and organic conflict.  And if it was then how can there still not be conflict with synthetic tech fully integrating inside organics.  The Zha'til might have something to say about this.  And that was also their story.

Sure, we have to just accept that they're gonna do whatever the hell they want.  And now we know never to believe them again about anything.  This never was our story, we never played a big part in creating it, choices never did matter.  No, I've never been gullible, but I certainly have learned to never pre-order any game ever.

[chemiclord]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Sure, we have to just accept that they're gonna do whatever the hell they want.  And now we know never to believe them again about anything.  This never was our story, we never played a big part in creating it, choices never did matter.  No, I've never been gullible, but I certainly have learned to never pre-order any game ever.

In all honesty, that's probably a smart practice regardless of how you feel about a company and their products.  Pre-orders and pre-purchases are something that I inherently despise, at least how video games do it; with enhanced graphics that rarely truly represent what you'll get on your average system, for example... or "Day 1" DLC and other bonuses... all stuff made to entice you to make a blind, uninformed purchase.

Another example from my own experience, despite how much of an Arena.Net fan I had been in the past, I absolutely HATED how they handled their pre-release Beta, and was lucky I got a random beta key to give it a look before I put down my coin.  It's getting ridiculous how gaming companies are no longer going out of their way to show you what they've got... but going out of their way to make sure you slap down your money while completely in the dark.

Modifié par chemiclord, 18 février 2013 - 04:12 .

[AlanC9]

It's not day 1 DLC per se that encourages blind purchasing, right? It's bundling it with pre-orders and/or special editions.

Modifié par AlanC9, 18 février 2013 - 05:41 .

[chemiclord]

AlanC9 wrote...

It's not day 1 DLC per se that encourages blind purchasing, right? It's bundling it with pre-orders and/or special editions.

I was more referring to DLC like, "Preorder now and get [insert random cool thing or look here] free!"  Stuff like that.  

Game companies, frankly, are SCARED.  They're TERRIFIED that if you actually SEE the product, you're not going to like it, and there's a lost sale.  So they try to sweeten the pot with trivial stuff or outright coerce you in pre-purchasing before you know what you got.

The earlier statement I made regarding Arena.net, for example.  In Guild Wars 2, if you wanted "guaranteed" access to their beta events, you were required to completely pre-purchase the game in full.  Basically, if you wanted to test the waters to see if it was something you liked, you had to buy it in full, sight unseen.  It came across as horribly cheap to me.

And all game companies do things like this now.  They want you ignorant, and figure the less you see before you buy, the better.

Modifié par chemiclord, 18 février 2013 - 06:31 .

[sharkboy421]

chemiclord wrote...

Well, Bioware doesn't agree.

They think the main theme is "Synthetic and Organic conflict" and the tecnological singularity.  You may not think those are the primary themes, but they do.  They don't think they've violated anything... so... now what?

Their story.  Their rules.  Even if it sucks (and yes, it sucks).

And that is. . .fair I suppose.  You're correct it is their story.  However in that case, as Fenris so elegantly put, I "humbly request clarification."  If that is indeed the main theme, plot, focus, whatever of the story, then I would love ask them to take us through their creative proccess of the trilogy and explain how they followed this theme from the beginning of the opening moments of the first game to the closing moments of the third.

I really, really want to see the ending of ME3 the way Bioware does.  And I have been trying for a year to figure it out.  Even playing the first two games again after the EC and Leviathan came out and knowing what I do, I am still unable to connect the dots.  And unfortunately I'm not sure I ever will :/.

[chemiclord]

sharkboy421 wrote...

And that is. . .fair I suppose.  You're correct it is their story.  However in that case, as Fenris so elegantly put, I "humbly request clarification."  If that is indeed the main theme, plot, focus, whatever of the story, then I would love ask them to take us through their creative proccess of the trilogy and explain how they followed this theme from the beginning of the opening moments of the first game to the closing moments of the third.

I really, really want to see the ending of ME3 the way Bioware does.  And I have been trying for a year to figure it out.  Even playing the first two games again after the EC and Leviathan came out and knowing what I do, I am still unable to connect the dots.  And unfortunately I'm not sure I ever will :/.

And you won't; because the bigger problem isn't the theme or the violation of them.  It's that the ending itself is mechanically and narratively terrible.  You're given massive gaps in the sequence of events (and for as many as the EC fills, it opens others), then given a conclusion with the barest minimim of context, no significant resolution to the characters that drove the tale, then told, "Okay.  Our job's done.  Make up the rest on your own, folks!"

There is DEFINITELY a massive disconnect with the story Bioware thought they were telling, and the story the fans were experiencing.  THAT is not in debate.  The ending is NOT good, and I'm not going to pretend otherwise.

What I generally DON'T buy is the idea that Bioware "betrayed" their fans.  It wasn't an "insult", it wasn't "catering to the CoD drones and spitting in the face of their 'devoted fans'."  It wasn't a "slap to the face."

It was terrible ending to a game that the people here in the BSN wasn't all that fond of to begin with.  That's all it was.  At the end of the day, that's okay.  You shake it off, you move on with your life, and be more wary of your investment in Bioware's games.  Lesson learned.

[Arbiter156]

I don't think bioware intentionally "betrayed" thier fans, but the fact that so far they don't even acknowledge the problems with the ending beyond saying "controversial" leaves a very bad taste in the fans mouths. Ultimately an apology of some sort would do wonders for relations with the fans at this point.

[Jackal13th]

well i didn't like the ending x3 so i use the MEHEM installer mode fir the only happy ending Shepard lives .this is my thoughts. not any one ealces in the ending Shepard places the plack of David Anderson on the wall then she turns to Liara and gives her a hug . That ending i can live with ...o and it is a exe installer .self installer.mode. !

[chemiclord]

Arbiter156 wrote...

I don't think bioware intentionally "betrayed" thier fans, but the fact that so far they don't even acknowledge the problems with the ending beyond saying "controversial" leaves a very bad taste in the fans mouths. Ultimately an apology of some sort would do wonders for relations with the fans at this point.

Well, why should they?  They don't think there's a problem.

They like and stand by the story they composed, and aren't going to change it over what they feel is at the end of the day nothing more than a difference of opinion.  On that one score, I kinda sorta agree with Bioware's stance.  They aren't responsible for the "taste" in your mouth, especially one year later after they made it painfully clear they aren't changing it.  And they certainly have nothing to "apologize" for.  If they felt compelled to apologize for everything of theirs that someone didn't like... they'd be doing nothing but apologizing.

[Teddie Sage]

Arbiter156 wrote...

I don't think bioware intentionally "betrayed" thier fans, but the fact that so far they don't even acknowledge the problems with the ending beyond saying "controversial" leaves a very bad taste in the fans mouths. Ultimately an apology of some sort would do wonders for relations with the fans at this point.

Basically what a lot of people think too.

[Renmiri1]

chemiclord wrote...

Arbiter156 wrote...

I don't think bioware intentionally "betrayed" thier fans, but the fact that so far they don't even acknowledge the problems with the ending beyond saying "controversial" leaves a very bad taste in the fans mouths. Ultimately an apology of some sort would do wonders for relations with the fans at this point.

Well, why should they?  They don't think there's a problem.

They like and stand by the story they composed, and aren't going to change it over what they feel is at the end of the day nothing more than a difference of opinion.  On that one score, I kinda sorta agree with Bioware's stance.  They aren't responsible for the "taste" in your mouth, especially one year later after they made it painfully clear they aren't changing it.  And they certainly have nothing to "apologize" for.  If they felt compelled to apologize for everything of theirs that someone didn't like... they'd be doing nothing but apologizing.

The way I see it, I got conned into spending my time in their story, and was always told it would be "my story" and my choices would matter.

Then they did the famous "bait and switch"

In any other consumer goods area Bioware would be labeled a con artist. "Bait and Switch" schemes are frowned upon.

[Iakus]

chemiclord wrote...

Arbiter156 wrote...

I don't think bioware intentionally "betrayed" thier fans, but the fact that so far they don't even acknowledge the problems with the ending beyond saying "controversial" leaves a very bad taste in the fans mouths. Ultimately an apology of some sort would do wonders for relations with the fans at this point.

Well, why should they?  They don't think there's a problem.

They like and stand by the story they composed, and aren't going to change it over what they feel is at the end of the day nothing more than a difference of opinion.  On that one score, I kinda sorta agree with Bioware's stance.  They aren't responsible for the "taste" in your mouth, especially one year later after they made it painfully clear they aren't changing it.  And they certainly have nothing to "apologize" for.  If they felt compelled to apologize for everything of theirs that someone didn't like... they'd be doing nothing but apologizing.

They don't think there's a problem is the problem.

tehy delivered two installments of a trilogy in one manner, then at literally the last moment changed things up in the final volume.  So, yes, they are responsible for the bad taste in players' mouth.  They bring people in with expectations of one thing, and deliver something else.  Whether you liked the direction or not, that's precisely what they did.

Modifié par iakus, 18 février 2013 - 04:28 .

[Clayless]

Arbiter156 wrote...

I don't think bioware intentionally "betrayed" thier fans, but the fact that so far they don't even acknowledge the problems with the ending beyond saying "controversial" leaves a very bad taste in the fans mouths. Ultimately an apology of some sort would do wonders for relations with the fans at this point.

Apologise for what?