10 réponses à ce sujet

[ViciousCargo]

So this doesn't make any sense to me.  The Reapers are thorough enough to wipe out all traces of the Protheans (except Ilos) across the galaxy, leaving only the mass relays for future organics to find.  Now my understanding was the Reapers wanted themselves to be kept secret, hiding in dark space, only willing to reveal themselves when the time was right.  So, how is it they decided to leave (or neglected to find) a 37 million year old derelict reaper for organics to find and study?   Why would the Reapers leave one of their own hanging in space for some team of organics to discover?  Are the Reapers that sloppy or did they leave it their for some purpose?

[RedCaesar97]

It was considered "dead". Reapers can communicate with each other using quantum entanglement, so a dead Reaper cannot communicate and is effectively lost and untraceable.

Or something. Blah blah, plot device, blah blah blah.

Probably best not to look too closely at the plot in any of the Mass Effect games.

[MathiasShepard]

ViciousCargo wrote...

So this doesn't make any sense to me.  The Reapers are thorough enough to wipe out all traces of the Protheans (except Ilos) across the galaxy, leaving only the mass relays for future organics to find.  Now my understanding was the Reapers wanted themselves to be kept secret, hiding in dark space, only willing to reveal themselves when the time was right.  So, how is it they decided to leave (or neglected to find) a 37 million year old derelict reaper for organics to find and study?   Why would the Reapers leave one of their own hanging in space for some team of organics to discover?  Are the Reapers that sloppy or did they leave it their for some purpose?

What helps me in situations where it is difficult for you to consider...

Take what has been given to you as fact... because in the game it IS fact... and than try to come up with reasons on how this fact can be made true.

I avoid all plot holes like this and it can be fun creating my own hypothesis, one of the fun parts about the game. I feel like people are too focused on trying to find error when they should be focused on finding the solution. This is why plot holes don't bother me, unless they are beyond bad, because I've got a good creative imagination.

In this case, I would first consider that this is a dead reaper that managed to avoid the clean-up job of the rest of the reapers(like Javik) when they left back into the void. What is possible is that this reaper could have been a reaper like Sovereign, but for a cycle that was long past. This Reaper could have been killed by one of the former races or by some other unknown means like put into a stasis by the Leviathan and had its communications and AI destroid. As a reaper like sovereign it's whereabouts could have been lost because the rest of the reapers were in dark space not being able to find where it had gone.... I like the leviathan idea, that would men it was very old.

Modifié par MathiasShepard, 15 février 2013 - 06:05 .

[ViciousCargo]

MathiasShepard wrote...

ViciousCargo wrote...

So this doesn't make any sense to me.  The Reapers are thorough enough to wipe out all traces of the Protheans (except Ilos) across the galaxy, leaving only the mass relays for future organics to find.  Now my understanding was the Reapers wanted themselves to be kept secret, hiding in dark space, only willing to reveal themselves when the time was right.  So, how is it they decided to leave (or neglected to find) a 37 million year old derelict reaper for organics to find and study?   Why would the Reapers leave one of their own hanging in space for some team of organics to discover?  Are the Reapers that sloppy or did they leave it their for some purpose?

What helps me in situations where it is difficult for you to consider...

Take what has been given to you as fact... because in the game it IS fact... and than try to come up with reasons on how this fact can be made true.

I avoid all plot holes like this and it can be fun creating my own hypothesis, one of the fun parts about the game. I feel like people are too focused on trying to find error when they should be focused on finding the solution. This is why plot holes don't bother me, unless they are beyond bad, because I've got a good creative imagination.

In this case, I would first consider that this is a dead reaper that managed to avoid the clean-up job of the rest of the reapers(like Javik) when they left back into the void. What is possible is that this reaper could have been a reaper like Sovereign, but for a cycle that was long past. This Reaper could have been killed by one of the former races or by some other unknown means like put into a stasis by the Leviathan and had its communications and AI destroid. As a reaper like sovereign it's whereabouts could have been lost because the rest of the reapers were in dark space not being able to find where it had gone.... I like the leviathan idea, that would men it was very old.

It still doesn't make sense that the Reapers can sweep across the galaxy to eradicate all organic life and happen to miss one of their own floating near a planet.  I don't buy it.  As Vigil said "the reapers are absolutely thorough" not sloppy.  It would make greater sense that the reaper was left derelict on purpose, for indoctrination purposes, but the game developers were too lazy in going into the backstory of this reaper.

By the way, I'm not interested in focusing on the "error" (as you put it) but on a solution, which is why I posted on a forum to see what others think on the subject.  It makes for good critical thinking rather than ignoring these "plot holes" and taking the cool-aid at face value.

Modifié par ViciousCargo, 16 février 2013 - 05:47 .

[Meeeps]

Reapers are not immortal, so that 37 millions years ago someone else as Shepard killed one should be possible.. Why should the other Reapers care about a defunct mate? But Cerberus brought back the vital spark as Reapers are AI's, so those try to survive...

Modifié par Meeeps, 18 février 2013 - 09:36 .

[ViciousCargo]

Meeeps wrote...

Reapers are not immortal, so that 37 millions years ago someone else as Shepard killed one should be possible.. Why should the other Reapers care about a defunct mate? But Cerberus brought back the vital spark as Reapers are AI's, so those try to survive...

Here's why they would care: talk to Vigil in Ilos and he'll tell you this long story how the Reapers like to remain hidden, undetected, working through agents (like Saren) so they can ambush the Citadel and the rest of galactic space unopposed.  Leaving a "dead mate" lingering in space endangers their greatest threat, which is their surprise attack.  Plus, leaving their technology for organics to salvage would expose them perhaps earlier than when the Reapers would be prepared to invade again.

Furthermore, if the Reapers are so "thorough" in sweeping the existence of the Protheans and countless races before them so that other races could not learn of their fate, why decide to be so aloof when it comes to one of their own?

Also, I never said that Reapers were immortal or invincible.  Of course it makes sense that someone else other than Shepard could have killed a reaper long ago.  That was never the question.  The question being why or how the reapers lost track of one of their own, floating in space for all to find.  Did they do it on purpose or by accident?  That is my question.

Modifié par ViciousCargo, 18 février 2013 - 01:59 .

[Meeeps]

Because it was dead/defunct until Cerberus or whoever found it.

[ViciousCargo]

Meeeps wrote...

Because it was dead/defunct until Cerberus or whoever found it.

I know it's dead/defunct.  That wasn't my question.  The question was (this is the third time I'm posting this btw): why did the reapers leave it behind?  Because it doesn't make sense that they would simply lose track of one of their own.  So far no one has explained to me how the reapers would lose track of one of their own whether they are dead, defunct, or whatever.

If the answer is simply they lost track of their own, then that makes the reapers the sloppiest form of sentient machines in the galaxy.  Taking into consideration that this didn't happen the last cycle, 50,000 years ago, but 37 million years ago?   It doesn't make sense that this whole time they would be oblivious that one of their own is dead and they have no idea where it is and they haven't found it yet.  Considering the wide range of knowledge they must have of the galaxy by now, their intelligence, group mind, thorough habits in search and destroy, it is not a possibility to me that they would be neglectful.

So the question is more of a "why" they would leave one of their own behind.  If it's because it's dead, and they don't care if organics find it, then that counters everything we learned of the reapers and their methods of surprise attack and working through agents.  If the reapers care so much about having organics evolve along the paths they desire then why would they risk it by leaving their technology and exposure available for organics to find?  Makes no sense.  The shaky conclusion I have come to is that it was left there on purpose with the sole intent to indoctrinate any organic that boarded it.  But I have problems with that theory as well.

Modifié par ViciousCargo, 19 février 2013 - 03:12 .

[FlyingSquirrel]

ViciousCargo wrote...
So the question is more of a "why" they would leave one of their own behind.  If it's because it's dead, and they don't care if organics find it, then that counters everything we learned of the reapers and their methods of surprise attack and working through agents. 

Actually, there seems to be a degree to which the Reapers don't care if they are discovered because they assume (correctly, I guess) that people won't know what they are seeing. Sovereign appears in the sky quite visibly over Eden Prime and everybody assumes it's an advanced geth ship. Shepard reports the conversation with Sovereign and the Council members think it's a fabrication by Saren. Cerberus only pays attention to it because they know what it is - most species would likely either just think it's some unknown ancient spacecraft and decide it's not worth the trouble, or...

 If the reapers care so much about having organics evolve along the paths they desire then why would they risk it by leaving their technology and exposure available for organics to find?  Makes no sense.  The shaky conclusion I have come to is that it was left there on purpose with the sole intent to indoctrinate any organic that boarded it.  But I have problems with that theory as well.

...if they *did* board it to investigate, they'd end up indoctrinated. I don't think they left it there for that explicit purpose, but perhaps they would consider it a sufficient "fail-safe" such that salvaging it isn't worth their time.

Also, in light of what we know from ME3, maybe it isn't, in fact, 100% dead (since it can still indoctrinate), and they feel obligated to leave it alone since it contains portions of the thoughts and memories of a harvested species.

[ViciousCargo]

Thanks for your answer.

It's true: Sovereign shows himself, but it's just before the start of the next cycle. However, if organics were to learn of the Reapers before their invasion, say stumbling across a dead one, learn of its ways and dangers, then maybe the leaders of the Citadel would've taken more steps to protect against them. It is because the Reapers sound so far fetched that the Council considers the reports as fabrications, ergo this makes Sovereign's presence unnoticeable and his impending surprise attack lethal.

Beyond this, even if the Reapers were aloof enough not to care, it still doesn't fit their description of wiping the galaxy clean of clues, as Liara explains. A dead reaper would give rise to an explanation as to what happened to the Protheans. I would buy it if the reapers didn't go to such great extent to cleanse the galaxy of their presence and what they did to the Protheans. This is why I hesitate in accepting the theory that the Reapers simply don't care if their detected. 

Sovereign didn't care because the cycle was about to begin all over again.  As Vigil says, Sovereign had been planning and scheming for centuries before acting.  If Sovereign and the Reapers didn't care, then why plot and plan and use agents and all this sneaking around until the time was ripe for the picking?  Why not fly around space, zapping colonies, space stations, and random planets as a reminder that the Reapers are here and their doom is coming?  It makes no sense and it counters all that we learned about the Reapers.  

Modifié par ViciousCargo, 19 février 2013 - 07:17 .

[Meeeps]

It's not about if the Reapers would care about the dead one, they simply do not know about it,