202 réponses à ce sujet

[Whybother]

MacroSpamMK wrote...

****, better kill Liara too. She's a pureblood, could carry the AY gene, fk, fk, fk.

She's not a pureblood.  She's a quarter Krogan, didn't you listen to her and her dad talking it out?

[Zazzerka]

Whybother wrote...

She's not a pureblood.  She's a quarter Krogan, didn't you listen to her and her dad talking it out?

Her mummy and daddy are both asari, so she's a pure blood. Far as I know, grandfathers and so on don't factor into that.

[KiwiQuiche]

Eh, Liara is overly emotional about loads of stuff- hell, she even tries physically attacking Javik simply because he won't coddle her after Thessia. Smooth.

And Ardat-Yakshi have kill counts that can be "astronomical". We don't need another crazed sex killer on the loose.

Modifié par KiwiQuiche, 18 février 2013 - 07:51 .

[Sporozoa]

cmessaz wrote...

LOL, I just don't get this whole "amg why do you do such evil things in your game"... thing. I can totally understand personally not liking an option like this and never choosing to do it (I have done it for science), but to run around and say "that is murder" etc, that's an opinion, and people are entitled to their opinion, as is the op. I got the same crap when I hurt Alibear's feelings in DAO when I spared Loghain, and from many others when they find out I play renegade Shepard, and one of my playthroughs I sabotage the genophage. I find myself trying to defend that Shepard. Am I the only one who is able to RP just about anything depending on the situation? I like trying all the options in the games, then I kinda choose what to stick with in my canon.
For the one playthrough that I killed Felere, Samara had died in ME2 so obviously there was no suicide or attempted suicide. Shepard doesn't know Felere and Samara isn't there to help explain, so it honestly was not too bad to kill her. Shepard clearly feels like **** afterwards, but the Ardat Yakshi are dangerous even without the reapers, and without metagaming how do you know Felere isn't already indoctrinated. For me it was kind of the same as killing that scientist Asari in the first game (I forget her name) and that turned out to be a smart choice.
As for Liara's reaction, I didn't have her with Shep so I didn't see it. I imagine it would freak her out, that seems in character to me.

+100500. I failed to understand why modern society in some East countries tried to just "not see" that "world is harsh place". The only options that may not be in video game MAYBE it killing childerns (that is why in Skyrim they are immortal). But even in so pollitically correct ME3 game child at the start dies (who know was or was not he real at all, but stiLL).

What do you want from video game? Fantasy in realistic world like our's, even too realistic in some cases (the witcher game, deus ex HR) or shiny game with unicorns where good always defeat evil and take it into custody (but for the god sake not kill it!)???

If you really like such game then your game is "funnyfarm", no more.  World sucks, sometimes, evil win, or people dies - that's its part of ther reality - so DONE WITH IT ALREADY! Geth could die, quarians could, even Shepard they arent immortal. And that is why such options is necessary in video game if it tends to be realistic.

Modifié par Sporozoa, 18 février 2013 - 07:59 .

[Jassu1979]

Even as a RPG-veteran who has experimented with some dubious courses of action in many a fictional setting, I do find that the way we act in such games tells us a lot about our own personality.
Yes, it is fiction, and no, I do not believe that people who murder Mordin in ME3 are planning to shoot their friends in real life. There IS a difference, and I'm not trying to insinuate that Renegade players are all ticking time bombs filled with sociopathic urges.
HOWEVER, the way we play games does reflect some of our interpersonal attitudes, and it is somewhat disturbing when people talk about butchering characters because they find them annoying, or murdering them because it's more practical.

Perhaps it depends on just how much you immerse yourself into the fictional setting, pretending that the characters you talk to are actual people. But I've found that I *cannot* play ME3 in full-Renegade mode without feeling contaminated by the vileness of the acts expected of such a Shepard.

[Hazegurl]

@Jassu, Then don't take the Renegade actions that you feel contaminates you. But I am well aware that I am playing a game and in some cases I do like to think about the best course of action if it were under real life circumstances. IMO, a Paragon can also make choices that are simply not the best in the long run. Heck, you can even cause the deaths of many people depending upon the Paragon choices in the game. I guess I can say that if playing full renegade speaks about a persons personality (I assume you mean in a negative light) I can easily say that Paragon players tend to be judgmental, narrow minded, and have a need to be seen as good people just to feel good about themselves, instead of thinking of the long term consequences of their actions.

But, in the end its just a game and no one should be judged based on the actions of a fictional character in a setting that will never happen.

[Mouton_Alpha]

Jassu1979 wrote...
HOWEVER, the way we play games does reflect some of our interpersonal attitudes, and it is somewhat disturbing when people talk about butchering characters because they find them annoying, or murdering them because it's more practical.

Perhaps it depends on just how much you immerse yourself into the fictional setting, pretending that the characters you talk to are actual people. But I've found that I *cannot* play ME3 in full-Renegade mode without feeling contaminated by the vileness of the acts expected of such a Shepard.

Yes. I have problems playing truly vile characters. Consider Planescape: Torment with you selling friends into slavery or damning them to an actual hell.

Still, I believe that most people who take the worst options are also the ones that have the most distance. Or, at least, that's what I hope.

[Galbrant]

cmessaz wrote...

LOL, I just don't get this whole "amg why do you do such evil things in your game"... thing. I can totally understand personally not liking an option like this and never choosing to do it (I have done it for science), but to run around and say "that is murder" etc, that's an opinion, and people are entitled to their opinion, as is the op. I got the same crap when I hurt Alibear's feelings in DAO when I spared Loghain, and from many others when they find out I play renegade Shepard, and one of my playthroughs I sabotage the genophage. I find myself trying to defend that Shepard. Am I the only one who is able to RP just about anything depending on the situation? I like trying all the options in the games, then I kinda choose what to stick with in my canon.
For the one playthrough that I killed Felere, Samara had died in ME2 so obviously there was no suicide or attempted suicide. Shepard doesn't know Felere and Samara isn't there to help explain, so it honestly was not too bad to kill her. Shepard clearly feels like **** afterwards, but the Ardat Yakshi are dangerous even without the reapers, and without metagaming how do you know Felere isn't already indoctrinated. For me it was kind of the same as killing that scientist Asari in the first game (I forget her name) and that turned out to be a smart choice.
As for Liara's reaction, I didn't have her with Shep so I didn't see it. I imagine it would freak her out, that seems in character to me.

It is murder and it is a fact. Falere only crime is that she is born a Ardat Yakshi. The fact she is staying in the sanctuary like the Asari Government order all Ardat Yakshi proves this. If she has commited any crimes in the past Samara would have already killed her. Where did you get the idea she is indoctrinated? She showed no signs of indoctrination and there was no evidence of people getting indoctrinated in the area..  

And it's Rana Thanoptis, she is clearly a danger and a criminal since she tells you indoctrination was affecting the staff and she was responsible for the condition the capture Salarians are in and she even experimented on her predecessor. So it's perfectly fine for Shepard to kill her I let her go because I wanted to give her a chance, I just wish I had the option to kill her when I found her during Grunt's recruitment mission which the developers automatically assume we were willing to give her a third chance.

Modifié par Galbrant, 18 février 2013 - 11:03 .

[mumba]

There really should've been a "b*tch, be cool" dialogue option.

[Argolas]

Galbrant wrote...

cmessaz wrote...

LOL, I just don't get this whole "amg why do you do such evil things in your game"... thing. I can totally understand personally not liking an option like this and never choosing to do it (I have done it for science), but to run around and say "that is murder" etc, that's an opinion, and people are entitled to their opinion, as is the op. I got the same crap when I hurt Alibear's feelings in DAO when I spared Loghain, and from many others when they find out I play renegade Shepard, and one of my playthroughs I sabotage the genophage. I find myself trying to defend that Shepard. Am I the only one who is able to RP just about anything depending on the situation? I like trying all the options in the games, then I kinda choose what to stick with in my canon.
For the one playthrough that I killed Felere, Samara had died in ME2 so obviously there was no suicide or attempted suicide. Shepard doesn't know Felere and Samara isn't there to help explain, so it honestly was not too bad to kill her. Shepard clearly feels like **** afterwards, but the Ardat Yakshi are dangerous even without the reapers, and without metagaming how do you know Felere isn't already indoctrinated. For me it was kind of the same as killing that scientist Asari in the first game (I forget her name) and that turned out to be a smart choice.
As for Liara's reaction, I didn't have her with Shep so I didn't see it. I imagine it would freak her out, that seems in character to me.

It is murder and it is a fact. Falere only crime is that she is born a Ardat Yakshi. The fact she is staying in the sanctuary like the Asari Government order all Ardat Yakshi proves this. If she has commited any crimes in the past Samara would have already killed her. Where did you get the idea she is indoctrinated? She showed no signs of indoctrination and there was no evidence of people getting indoctrinated in the area..  

And it's Rana Thanoptis, she is clearly a danger and a criminal since she tells you indoctrination was affecting the staff and she was responsible for the condition the capture Salarians are in and she even experimented on her predecessor. So it's perfectly fine for Shepard to kill her I let her go because I wanted to give her a chance, I just wish I had the option to kill her when I found her during Grunt's recruitment mission which the developers automatically assume we were willing to give her a third chance.

I totally agree with this. Just because Falere is able to kill with her genetics, she is not more dangerous than anyone who has a gun (and a lot of people do in the MEU). There is not much room for opinion in there. If you shoot a harmless person that never did anything wrong and is ready to obey the law no matter the cost, killing that person can't be justified. Falere is as innocent as someone can get.

[congokong]

On the surface, killing Falere may seem evil with no justification. Yet it might seem irresponsible (and illegal by Asari law) to just let an Ardat-Yakshi go without supervision. Forget the Banshee threat, if she ever mates with someone, she'll likely never be able to stop. Considering how the series emphasizes the damage they possess, it seems killing Falere is reasonable. Hell, the reason you're sent to the monastery was to finish the job of killing the Ardat-Yakshi if they could get loose. Without a monastery, it's safe to say they're "loose."

[ZipZap2000]

We should keep it in mind that the problem with playing this out, isn't that Falere can die.

Its that the circumstances around the choice are so far fetched, out of character and so poorly presented to the player that even having the option seems completely pointless.

Add to that the fact the act itself is also completely pointless. As is deciding to leave her at the monastery. Which is kinda lame because the entire mission boils down to that moment.

In all what it comes down to is this. If Samaras decision to kill herself or her daughter was determined in ME2 and the Ardat Yakshi were presented as Ardat Yakshi and not high school girls locked away from their lovers, it would make sense to Kill Falere from a more ruthless perspective.

As it is though in game, Liara has the right reaction. She's never killed. She's reasonable. She fought the Reaper forces. Her Mother is willing to die for her. She chose seclusion over her impulses. So going out of your way to do it just feels like a dickmove to most people.


It was a fun mission and I always enjoy it. But as I always wind up saying with this franchise it actually could have been even better.

[Dantriges]

Oh thread necromancy.

 

Never saw much of a point in killing Falere. There are banshees everywhere on the battlefield and seems Shepard´s crew isn´t the only one encountering them. Some soldiers on the Citadel talked about Banshees being hard to kill. One more wouldn´t mean much and the Reapers already left the place. Ok they probably would come back after the final victory to look for refugees or so but well the galaxy is dust in that case anyways. 

 

And killing Falere because it´s possible she would so something bad in the future hm, well, I was tired of preventive killings because of maybe scenarios at this point. It seems that there was an option to leave the monastery anyways. The PTSD asari had a known Ardat Yakshi in her squad. So seems if the asari can control it, she can be a member of society. I interpreted Falere´s "I could have left at any time" that she reached that point. I don´t think she meant that she could have left after the invasion.

Could be that I got it wrong though.

 

But well, the Normandy was full of squadmates, which were known menaces to society. Especially the crew of ME 2 was full of murder happy crazies with the possible exception of Tali and Kasumi. Even if you agree with Dr. Genophage, Mordin seemed to have quite a few loose screws, too.

 

After the whole murderfest of ME 2 this "it could be, that she might kill someone in the future," seemed more than a bit hypocritical, considering that Shep left a trail of corpses on his/her way and who (s)he hangs out with. Dunno but all these murderhobos, Shep calls friends and/or teammates seem to me more dangerous with their weapons, than the cloistered nun without a monastery. Wrex can reload his shotgun way faster than Falere can jump into bed with random people.

[Undead Han]

Killing Falere is full on stupid evil.

[congokong]

Killing Falere is full on stupid evil.

Metaphorically, Falere being outside her supervised monastery and among others would be like someone with serial killer tendencies being among people; only with people asking her to kill them. Ardat-Yakshi have an innate urge to mate and asari are very sexually desired. It would take uncanny willpower for Falere to forever resist these temptations; the only assurance being her word that she wouldn't leave the planet where these temptations would become an issue. That's not even factoring in the banshee risk.

[rossler]

I'm surprised she wasn't upset after those Cerberus soldiers killed Matriarch Aethyta during the Coup.

[Undead Han]

Genetics are only part of determining who we are. A genetic predisposition for a lack of empathy or self-control doesn't necessarily mean that a person is going to turn out to be a murderer. Nurture plays a huge role as well.

 

To use a real world example, there is a famous neuroscientist named James Fallon who discovered he was a psychopath while studying the brain scans of serial killers and then taking a peak at his own.

 

 

Falere and Ardat-Yakshi are fictional aliens with equally fictional mental illnesses, but there's no reason to think that a similar tug-of-war between nature, nurture, and free will isn't also going on with them to determine who does and doesn't turn into a serial killer. If I remember correctly one of the codex entries said something like 2% of all Asari carry the Ardat-Yakshi genetic defect. Obviously they can't all be murderers, so it seems like they Ardat-Yakshi are supposed to be the alien version of our own sociopaths or psychopaths, with a bit of vampirism thrown in for the more extreme examples like Morinth.

 

Falere had never murdered anyone as far as we know, and never exhibited any indication that she was threat. By all accounts she had not only played by the rules at the monastery but intended to stay, even when there was no longer an administration left in place to enforce her seclusion. Shepard murdering her (and it is a cold-blooded murder) is one of the least justifiable renegade actions taken during the entire trilogy. It pretty much amounts to Shepard killing an innocent person just because s/he can. Ironically that makes Shepard more reprehensible and more dangerous than the 'threat' s/he's ostensibly eliminating.

[ZipZap2000]

This is the debate the players should have been having with themselves before choosing. 

 

*sigh*

[correctamundo]

Killing Falere for her hypothetically turning Ardat-Yakshi when she's been content with her life for several centuries would be utterly pointless imo. But it could fit in the career of DickShep PT.

[Vanilka]

This is the person that would supposedly turn full Ardat-Yakshi, then Banshee, then go on an insane killing spree...

 

 

That goddamn serial/mass murderer... Oh, wait. Oops.

 

I'm all for taking the renegade route and I'm happy we have that option. I'm perfectly fine with people playing their game however they wish and roleplaying that their Shepard believes this is the only way for whatever reason. But I also disagree that, seriously speaking, it is right to kill Falere just because of what she could maybe become, especially given her record. Because the person pictured above is who we're killing when we don't give her a chance and take the renegade route. (By this logic, we might as well want to kill people with mental illnesses or HIV just to be safe. Because WHAT IF they could do something bad one day. I mean, we have no evidence to prove it, but WHAT IF, right? In MEU, we might as well wipe out all sapient life because they might and a lot of them do become Reaper pawns that kill tons of other people. Where do we draw the line?) So, while I think it's a great option to have for roleplay and whatever, I believe it's completely unethical no matter the WHAT IF scenario Shepard might come up with.

 

Frankly, I can't blame Liara for being upset. I'd be, too.

[congokong]

Do these same arguments apply to freeing the rachni queen? Is there a point where you just need to "play it safe" because the risk is too damn high, or do you cling to ideals no matter what and damn the consequences?

Personally, unlike Falere, I can't in good conscience free the queen; given the track record of every rachni ever encountered in the galaxy up to this point.

[Vanilka]

Are you truly comparing a creature of an extinct species with aggressive history to a teenager with a genetic disease?

 

The rachni queen decision is bullshit, either way. Ideally, why would you free it or kill it? Leave it in the cage for the Council to deal with. It's not our place to make that decision and it's not like we're in a rush. The game's problem is that it doesn't allow for that option.

[DeathScepter]

You did not get the hint that she would kill herself before that happened?

 

 

Do the Reaper care if she is living or dead? No for they will use the living and the dead and make them into husks of all stripes. 

[Vanilka]

You know, instead of making this kill or not to kill decision, I'd rather take Falere with us and find help for her if necessary. (Uhh, or as another option.) This mission in particular would be a great opportunity for Samara to learn that the Code doesn't have answers for everything, which could make for some interesting character development, in my opinion. (Or she could at least work as an escort for the time being. From what I've gathered, Justicars do that.) Leaving Falere in the half-destroyed monastery is kind of sad and irresponsible anyway. Makes me uneasy to leave a young girl alone in a place like that.

[Quarian Master Race]

It's a pretty brutal measure just to possibly prevent the creation of one more husk (albiet a dangerous variant) in a war where there's already millions of them, but I guess there's the legal (if not moral) defense of technically Shep's following the orders of Asari High Command to purge the monastery. Ultimately, the choice ends up failing on even the utilitarian grounds it seems based on, and is therefore utterly pointless IMO. It's one of those choices I've never made with any Shep because its presented in such a dumb fashion (others include killing the quarians, shooting Shiala, recruiting Morinth etc) that I can't see any reasonable person acting like that, and my Sheps usually end up 60-80% Renegade, so it's not some sort of moral outrage. Something about gunning down a random, nonresistant asari civilian, right after her mom just offed herself so her ridiculous space monk code didn't force her to do what you just did just seems.....Sith? Why can't I just put her in the brig and drop her off at CSec next I'm on the Citadel if I'm so pathologically worried about security?

 

As an aside, I always thought the way the asari treated the Ardat Yakshi, essentially imprisonment for a genetic condition, was kind of barbaric. Some of the squadmates have comments to the effect of "The asari are being generous, most races would've killed something like an Ardat Yakshi" (Tali). Yet on Earth, humans don't straight up go around imprisoning or killing everyone with HIV/AIDS just because malicious carriers, like war rapists in less developed parts of the world, sometimes deliberately use the disease as a bioweapon to a similar end. Seems like it'd make more sense to punish them when they actually commit a crime, rather than waste resouces maintaining a prison population of them. It's not like their system seems to be very effective in stopping the Morinths of the world anyway (Falere seems to think escape would've been easy).