202 réponses à ce sujet

[Lady Artifice]

^ So much that. It's why I'd love to see more noble Ardat Yakshi in the future of the franchise. I don't think they're dealt as merciful a hand as the writing implies.

[congokong]

Are you truly comparing a creature of an extinct species with aggressive history to a teenager with a genetic disease?
 
The rachni queen decision is bullshit, either way. Ideally, why would you free it or kill it? Leave it in the cage for the Council to deal with. It's not our place to make that decision and it's not like we're in a rush. The game's problem is that it doesn't allow for that option.

Comparing is not equating.

[congokong]

You know, instead of making this kill or not to kill decision, I'd rather take Falere with us and find help for her if necessary. (Uhh, or as another option.) This mission in particular would be a great opportunity for Samara to learn that the Code doesn't have answers for everything, which could make for some interesting character development, in my opinion. (Or she could at least work as an escort for the time being. From what I've gathered, Justicars do that.) Leaving Falere in the half-destroyed monastery is kind of sad and irresponsible anyway. Makes me uneasy to leave a young girl alone in a place like that.

That would be like telling a qunari that the qun doesn't have answers for everything. The justicar code is absolute. And Falere isn't a young girl. She is nearly 500 years old.

[Vanilka]

Comparing is not equating.

 

Still a different situation.

 

That would be like telling a qunari that the qun doesn't have answers for everything. The justicar code is absolute. And Falere isn't a young girl. She is nearly 500 years old.

 

You mean like you can have the Iron Bull become a Tal-Vashoth because he's put through a trying situation that allows for that kind of development?

 

So nearly 500 years of spotless record is still not enough to claim innocent?

[Dantriges]

There are Ardat Yakshi openly serving in the army, with the nowledge of their commanders, unless the localisation for the PTSD soldier deviates cmpletely.

[congokong]

Still a different situation.

The situations are. The philosophies, not as much.

 

You mean like you can have the Iron Bull become a Tal-Vashoth because he's put through a trying situation that allows for that kind of development?

 

So nearly 500 years of spotless record is still not enough to claim innocent?

I don't see what you're arguing here. The justicar code and the qun can't be bent. Iron Bull's situation occurred precisely because of how inflexible the qun was. If he wouldn't obey it, he was Tal-Vashok.

 

As for Falere, I'm just pointing out that she's not a teenage girl as you kept saying.

[Barquiel]

There are Ardat Yakshi openly serving in the army, with the nowledge of their commanders, unless the localisation for the PTSD soldier deviates cmpletely.

There is a bit of an inconsistency with the Ardat-Yakshi (it feels like there were different writers who didn't talk to each other about the Ardat Yakshi thing, starting with Samara's "there are only 3"). Maybe Ardat Yakshi are not all dangerous (like Aeian’s friend Neaira), and some work for the military/have normal jobs...or maybe it is temporary because of the Reaper War. I have no idea..

[congokong]

There is a bit of an inconsistency with the Ardat-Yakshi (it feels like there were different writers who didn't talk to each other about the Ardat Yakshi thing, starting with Samara's "there are only 3"). Maybe Ardat Yakshi are not all dangerous (like Aeian’s friend Neaira), and some work for the military/have normal jobs...or maybe it is temporary because of the Reaper War. I have no idea..

They apparently also retconned it so there are varying degrees of Ardat-Yakshi. Samara's daughters all have the extreme version.

[Daemul]

The first time i did this misson was on my canon Shepard without Samara since she had died during the suicide mission, so I was just left with this Asari woman and had to decide what the hell to do with her. I eventually decided to kill her since Asari Command wanted her kind dead, and I thought that if Samara had survived the suicide mission she would have killed her anyway (this was before i heard about the lolworthy suicide scene), so i put a bullet in her head and called it a day.

[ZipZap2000]

There is a bit of an inconsistency with the Ardat-Yakshi (it feels like there were different writers who didn't talk to each other about the Ardat Yakshi thing, starting with Samara's "there are only 3"). Maybe Ardat Yakshi are not all dangerous (like Aeian’s friend Neaira), and some work for the military/have normal jobs...or maybe it is temporary because of the Reaper War. I have no idea..

If you pick a different dialogue option Samara says

"To the best of my knowledge."

It seems the various terminals and datapads me2-me3 reveal she's never visited the Monastery before and that there are Justicars who's entire purpose appears to be hunting Ardat Yakshi and bringing them in alive. You could infer Morinth was the exception to the rule and that perhaps Samara is a low ranking Justicar.

But there's still a whole lot that needs explaining here.

[StarcloudSWG]

They apparently also retconned it so there are varying degrees of Ardat-Yakshi. Samara's daughters all have the extreme version.

 

It isn't a retcon. The Mass Effect 2 codex, if you'd bothered to read it, explained that A-Y syndrome is not actually rare; it is a spectrum disorder ranging from mild discomfort to the full blown "Demon of the Night Winds" expression that Morinth/Mirala, Falere, and Rila have. It affects something like 1 percent of the asari population, which given that there are thousands of millions of asari, means that there are a lot of A-Y gene carriers out there in the Mass Effect universe.

 

Samara also doesn't say there are only three ardat yakshi in existence. She says she had three daughters, and that there are three ardat-yakshi, and that it 'is as it sounds.'

[KaiserShep]

That would be like telling a qunari that the qun doesn't have answers for everything. The justicar code is absolute. And Falere isn't a young girl. She is nearly 500 years old.

 

 

I wonder if killing one's self rather than following through with sworn duty is somewhere in that code.

[congokong]

It isn't a retcon. The Mass Effect 2 codex, if you'd bothered to read it, explained that A-Y syndrome is not actually rare; it is a spectrum disorder ranging from mild discomfort to the full blown "Demon of the Night Winds" expression that Morinth/Mirala, Falere, and Rila have. It affects something like 1 percent of the asari population, which given that there are thousands of millions of asari, means that there are a lot of A-Y gene carriers out there in the Mass Effect universe.

 

Samara also doesn't say there are only three ardat yakshi in existence. She says she had three daughters, and that there are three ardat-yakshi, and that it 'is as it sounds.'

I didn't read the codex, no. As for Samara's dialogue, she says there are only three. It didn't seem open to interpretation.

 

 

I wonder if killing one's self rather than following through with sworn duty is somewhere in that code.

It was her way of escaping the code; to simply not be alive to follow it.

[KaiserShep]

And in her weakness, left Shepard to do the dirty work for her. 

[aoibhealfae]

I thought Samara's ME2 dialogue was implying that she knew only three Ardat-Yakshi (not as in a population census, if its an actual rare genetic condition, it should be in thousands, not three). And the line is under "Obscurity" tree: "As far as I know, only three exist today. Two choose a life of seclusion, the third ran." Morinth. "She ran and I'm sworn to kill her." 

 

Later, she revealed that Morinth is her daughter and I just assume the other two was her children which also under the "Other children" exposition line.  And she speak with subtext and with a lot of poise, there's no reason to take her words literally. 

[fhs33721]

Ugh, this discussion again. Quite frankly in my opinion there is absolutely zero justificaion for killing Falere.

She is an unarmed civilian, that hasn't committed any crime and on the contrary even obeyed all the very restrictive rules her government imposed on her due to an genetic disorder. So shooting her in the face is in fact murder.

The notion that it is justified to kill her because she might maybe become a dangerous serial killer is as far as I'm concerned absolutely stupid, hipocrytical and pathetic. Sure, let's start killing people before they even do anything wrong. Why not? We'll just pardon people that actually are/were violent killers and known criminals like Garrus, Jack, Wrex and many more on basis of they are friends/companions of Shepard. But that Asaari woman that potentially, maybe might become a serial killer? We must shoot her in the face right now. It's the only save thing to do! And that being aside from the fact that as far as I'm concered, killing somebody for things they might do in the future is highly despicable in the first place.

Furthermore the argument that she might be turned into a Banshee is also stupid. I mean seriously? Oh no if I let her live somewhen in the future there might be one more banshee fighting for the Reapers. So what? They already have hundreds of them anyways and are winning this war easily. The addition of one more banshee will change nothing. Do you really have to resort to shooting innocent people in order to potentially stop the Reapers from aquiring one more soldier? Really?

No, a Shepard that shoots Falere is not being pragmatic. S/he is just being a cold blooded, sociopathic murderer that likes to shoot people in the face just because they can.

Made even worse by the fact that before that it is Shepard herself/himself that drags Falere out of the building and saves her from the explosion. So if s/he then kills her s/he basically just saved Falere only to be able to personally shoot her in the face. That's some serious psychopathy right there from Shepard.

[Dantriges]

Made even worse by the fact that before that it is Shepard herself/himself that drags Falere out of the building and saves her from the explosion. So if s/he then kills her s/he basically just saved Falere only to be able to personally shoot her in the face. That's some serious psychopathy right there from Shepard.

 

An explosion doesn´t have that personal touch and doesn´t satisfy Shepard´s voices in the head.

[themikefest]

What's pathetic is that its Shepard that drags the asari back to the elevator instead of Samara. I guess she never cared, but then a moment later adds a hole in her head instead  shooting her daughter. Whatever.

 

I don't care about the mission. Its one of the least played missions for me. At that point I have enough ems for the ending I want.

[Vanilka]

The situations are. The philosophies, not as much.

And? Does it matter when what I'm saying is that we should adjust according to the circumstances of each situation? Don't see the issue here besides pointless play on words at this point.
 

I don't see what you're arguing here. The justicar code and the qun can't be bent. Iron Bull's situation occurred precisely because of how inflexible the qun was. If he wouldn't obey it, he was Tal-Vashok.

The Iron Bull can choose his friends over the Qun. Just like there's no reason Samara shouldn't have an option to break away from the Code for the same reason or disobey just this once, learning that the world doesn't always need to be black and white how the Code dictates. Most importantly, I didn't say that she should do that and that the fact she doesn't is wrong. I just said I thought it could make for some interesting character development for Samara.
 

As for Falere, I'm just pointing out that she's not a teenage girl as you kept saying.

Do we know what that age is by the asari standards? Liara is a little over a hundred and they still see her as a child. Ultimately, does that change the situation? I think not. If anything, her age and the fact that she's committed no crimes all that time says she's a good person that has her disability under control.

[Perpetual Nirvana]

And very annoying after Thessia in general.  "It was OK when all those other planets were burning, but THIS IS MY HOME!"

She seemed pretty upset to not be taken on the Ardat-Yakshi mission, judging from her attitude on the mission briefing.

As opposed to Shepard who's all "Blah, blah, sorry about your planet. Now about Earth..."

 

EDIT: Okay, didn't realise this comment was three years old.

[ZipZap2000]

EDIT: Okay, didn't realise this comment was three years old.

Irrelevant at this point.

*Sips tea*

[congokong]

As opposed to Shepard who's all "Blah, blah, sorry about your planet. Now about Earth..."

 

EDIT: Okay, didn't realise this comment was three years old.

Yeah, both Shepard and Liara have some homeworld selfishness.

 

With Liara, she actually asks Shepard what's bothering them right after earth was invaded. Seriously, Liara? Then when it's Thessia, she lays in bed crying. Granted, she never was as strong-willed as Shepard or Garrus who handle their homeworld crisis far better, but still.

 

And Shepard for some reason is obsessed with getting help for earth specifically; even if Shepard was a spacer or colonist background. Hell, even the earthborn one wasn't all that great for them; gangs and all. What makes earth so special? Worse, they make getting help for the crucible and having other races divert to help earth a package deal. No wonder the council didn't get onboard when they sell it like that.

[StarcloudSWG]

Do we know what that age is by the asari standards? Liara is a little over a hundred and they still see her as a child. Ultimately, does that change the situation? I think not. If anything, her age and the fact that she's committed no crimes all that time says she's a good person that has her disability under control.

 

Falere is well into her Matron years. The matron stage starts roughly around three hundred years old, and Falere is at least four hundred and forty one, probably a decade older than that.

[Dani86]

Genetics are only part of determining who we are. A genetic predisposition for a lack of empathy or self-control doesn't necessarily mean that a person is going to turn out to be a murderer. Nurture plays a huge role as well.

 

To use a real world example, there is a famous neuroscientist named James Fallon who discovered he was a psychopath while studying the brain scans of serial killers and then taking a peak at his own.

 

 

Falere and Ardat-Yakshi are fictional aliens with equally fictional mental illnesses, but there's no reason to think that a similar tug-of-war between nature, nurture, and free will isn't also going on with them to determine who does and doesn't turn into a serial killer. If I remember correctly one of the codex entries said something like 2% of all Asari carry the Ardat-Yakshi genetic defect. Obviously they can't all be murderers, so it seems like they Ardat-Yakshi are supposed to be the alien version of our own sociopaths or psychopaths, with a bit of vampirism thrown in for the more extreme examples like Morinth.

 

Falere had never murdered anyone as far as we know, and never exhibited any indication that she was threat. By all accounts she had not only played by the rules at the monastery but intended to stay, even when there was no longer an administration left in place to enforce her seclusion. Shepard murdering her (and it is a cold-blooded murder) is one of the least justifiable renegade actions taken during the entire trilogy. It pretty much amounts to Shepard killing an innocent person just because s/he can. Ironically that makes Shepard more reprehensible and more dangerous than the 'threat' s/he's ostensibly eliminating.

 

I think if we killed or locked up every person with a predisposition for psychopathology, most governments and corporate board rooms would be left empty. I sometimes wonder about the predispositions of players who pursue some of these really pointless renegade options just to be bad.  

[Dani86]

Ugh, this discussion again. Quite frankly in my opinion there is absolutely zero justificaion for killing Falere.

She is an unarmed civilian, that hasn't committed any crime and on the contrary even obeyed all the very restrictive rules her government imposed on her due to an genetic disorder. So shooting her in the face is in fact murder.

The notion that it is justified to kill her because she might maybe become a dangerous serial killer is as far as I'm concerned absolutely stupid, hipocrytical and pathetic. Sure, let's start killing people before they even do anything wrong. Why not? We'll just pardon people that actually are/were violent killers and known criminals like Garrus, Jack, Wrex and many more on basis of they are friends/companions of Shepard. But that Asaari woman that potentially, maybe might become a serial killer? We must shoot her in the face right now. It's the only save thing to do! And that being aside from the fact that as far as I'm concered, killing somebody for things they might do in the future is highly despicable in the first place.

Furthermore the argument that she might be turned into a Banshee is also stupid. I mean seriously? Oh no if I let her live somewhen in the future there might be one more banshee fighting for the Reapers. So what? They already have hundreds of them anyways and are winning this war easily. The addition of one more banshee will change nothing. Do you really have to resort to shooting innocent people in order to potentially stop the Reapers from aquiring one more soldier? Really?

No, a Shepard that shoots Falere is not being pragmatic. S/he is just being a cold blooded, sociopathic murderer that likes to shoot people in the face just because they can.

Made even worse by the fact that before that it is Shepard herself/himself that drags Falere out of the building and saves her from the explosion. So if s/he then kills her s/he basically just saved Falere only to be able to personally shoot her in the face. That's some serious psychopathy right there from Shepard.

 

I think the whole idea of the asari locking people up for a genetic condition before they commit any crime is kind of presented in the game as being wrong or at least morally questionable. The only parallel I can think of in real life of punishing people for 'pre-crimes' is DUI but those punishments are light in comparison to the lifetime in jail that the AY face.