193 réponses à ce sujet

[K_O_513]

Lykurgos88 wrote...

Reapers are obviously so underpowered right now that it is almost ridiculous. After all they are supposed to be the biggest threat to the galaxy...

Retaliation DLC changed everything. It turned Geth into super stunlocking faction, made Cerberus way more dangerous by just introducing the dragoons and finally it introduced a new powerhouse faction, the Collectors.

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This kind of brings out the question, why are Reapers so weak now? No one in this thread has voted for Reapers based on their actual performance on the battlefield. Reapers waste so much time doing nothing especially during the first waves, where Cannibals eat corpses and Marauders are locked into this "upgrading" mode. They are easy and defenseless targets. During the final waves all you need to do is to avoid banshees while shooting them which is surprisingly easy if you know what to do. This kind of "offensive retreat" is much harder with other factions.

Reapers seem weak because they are more balanced than the other factions.

[Clayless]

CrutchCricket wrote...

Collectors would be the same against Geth. Abominations would be prioritised by all of them, and would only really be shrugged off by Pyro's and Primes (Hunters would be hampered by wasting shots on them, Bombers would become a joke constantly trying to grenade them and Rocket troopers would kill them easily, but still waste time killing them). Possessed Abominations would take out groups, which the Geth tend to move in, and 3 of the Geth are close range only. Primes and Hunters power spam would be stopped by Seekers. Webs would slow them down. Colletor Troopers and Captains out DPS their Troopers and Rocket Troops and throw grenades. Praetorians block Combat Drones and Turrets and will roflstomp so much with their insane DPS laser or sync kill anything close, and Scions will sync kill anything close, dish out insane damage and stop shield regen, and pinpoint accurately cluster grenade things when possessed.

So Collectors would win hands down.

lol. I don't see how Hunters "waste shots" as they stun (not that abominations needs much to stop and growl like retards) and damage. And have you forgotten the Bomber's spark attack which also stuns? Seekers also won't do **** against Hunters who are already cloaked and Primes, who've already spawned drones and maybe a turret or two. As for praetorians and scions they may be comparable damage wise but again any instakill nonsense is just more free melting time for other units.

Wasting shots on Abominations. Geth would prioritise them and they shoot slowly and are close range, unlike us who have a myriad of ways to take out Abominations fast. The time they spend concentrating on Abominations is the time where the rest of the Collector forces cut them down from a distance.

Modifié par Robosexual, 18 février 2013 - 02:31 .

[Caldari Ghost]

FlowCytometry wrote...

Collectors- units on avg have the highest speed, damage, and health/barrier amounts per wave budget amounts

enemies tend to not have precision aim for head/weakspots so scions would be tougher for enemy factions to kill and stagger

aboms would blow up hunters, pyros, husks, phantoms, banshees, and dragoons, even if they die in the process

mindless AI would run into their webs and swarms- killing their weapon accuracy and move speed

their trooper units would win in any gun fire fight w/ any of the other faction's troopers- no contest at all

and praetorians would win probably any melee fight w/ any other unit- esp if they are possessed- given the sheer speed, range, and spamability of their melee plus their durability.

(if you didn't get the hint, colectors are quite over-tuned as a faction)

but primes have the biggest People's Elbow of all!

[Clayless]

Ace-Malo wrote...

But considering Phantoms and Dragoons cant be sync killed... I dont know too close to call for me. 

Phantoms can be sync killed. And if Kroguards can be picked up then so can Dragoons.

[LoonySpectre]

Dragoons are armoured, so the only way to know for sure is to run tests with Sabotaged Atlas and Dragoon.
And can Guardians be sync-killed?

[andresft]

Sojiro888 wrote...
Some people here are vastly overestimating how effective stunlock is on enemy factions.

First, the very principle of the thing makes it much more effective on players than AI. It makes the skill of anyone stunlocked irrelevant, leading to their death. But if it happened all the time, no one would ever finish a Geth game, actual complete stun lock to death is rather uncommon if you compute the ration of time spent being stunlocked to death to time spent playing (it rises a little if you take into account time being staggered that didn't lead to a kill). The Combat Drone is totted around as the ultimate weapon of death, but have you seen how low his RoF is? When it hits a player, he "often" dies from the considerable stagger and he has only one life (before using medigel), but enemy units not only have vastly superior expendable lives, they also have larger health bars allowing them to take more of a pounding while staggered.
At any time, a player who isn't strengthening his advantage is Doing It Wrong, so no matter when a stagger happens it is a serious penalty. But enemy troops spend a lot of time derping around.

Then there's the fact that, as Robosexual pointed out, enemies are leagues better than players (barring stagger-immune kits) at dealing with stagger. It takes way more force to stagger a boss than a player, and even when you have enough force they have a chance to ignore it anyway. But it does happen ... the boss suddenly gains complete immunity to further stunning for a while, thus making it impossible to stun lock them. That feature is important because players are actually far better than even the Geth at stun-locking the opposition to oblivion.


Nah, the Geth would likely fare rather badly. They have the strategy which is closest to the player's, which is the one all factions were made to handle.
Cerberus, on the other hand? Without a considerable re-working of the AI, Cerberus would be ridiculously effective compared to their actual threat level to players. AI has little to no target selection capability. They favor targets out of cover and that's pretty much it. So they are going to spend a lot of time shooting at Guardian Shields and ignoring the Engineers in the back. They don't have anything about avoiding Sentry Turrets in their pathing algorithms, so they'll keep stumbling into the death zones Engineers set up. The phatoms's Cloack+high speed Barrier regenration is a potent tool against players, but against AIs who don't know to prioritize a badly hurt invisible phantom? It's going to take them forever to kill them. Nemesis shots are very powerful but easy to avoid thanks to the warning light ... except that the AI doesn't know that, so they'll eat the round in the face.

Collectors are hax enough that they'd have a good chance even against Cerberus, though. AP lazers as well as abomination grab + boom would go a long way toward dealing with Guardians, and Scions are pretty good at dealing with Snipers. Atlases are powerful, but not as much as possessed Praetorians. In the end, the downfall of the Collectors would likely come from their habit of rushing the nemy position without paying attention to the Turrets' interdiction zone*.

With some adaptations to the AI to make sure that they don't behave like idiots (like killing Possessed Abomination point blank or waste all their rounds on an invicible guardian shield instead of aiming for the mail slot), Collectors would dominate thanks to their overall overpowerdness. Faster and more health and damage than anyone else on top of the possession mechanics and the other stuff makes them a formidable opponent.

* PS : I just noticed that turrets have a very high RoF and since players do not have armor they are unlikely to have armor mitigation. So their insane damage on players is likely to be vastly less effective at taking out armored targets.

This. So much. Plus, people are basing their answers on the ridiculous notion that a flawed game mechanic that the developers decided to put in place so as to compensate for the Geth's lack of instakill (something purely concerning balance for four-player games) and, presumably, as sweet payback for FBWGG should somehow be applied to this hypothetical world in which the factions face off against each other. That shouldn't be the case. This is a fun thought experiment, but we're also doing it because we truly, genuinely want to know which faction would prevail, so we might as well do it well and apply sound logic. Let's not bullsh*t each other here, a combat drone is not going to stop a Scion or a Praetorian from doing their thing.

By the way,

better than players (barring stagger-immune kits)

Is there such a thing? 

[Volcan5000]

SavagelyEpic wrote...

Volcan5000 wrote...

SavagelyEpic wrote...

Volcan5000 wrote...
Preatorians and Collecter Captains would hunt Phantoms with ease.

lolno

Not if they have on-host DR... You can literally empty an entire heatsink and extended mag modded hurricane under marksman into a Phantom at point blank range and watch her lose one bar of barrier.

And then she has her palm-black-widow-minigun, too.

Collecter Captains are savages with those CAR XLMVIII, and their are many more of them. then you have the preatorians who are fast love an upclose fight and can tank a phantoms concentration long enough for a husk to melee the phantom to death

We can't grab phantoms over cover, what makes you think husks can jump on them?

lolwut?

Grab over cover? i dont know who in this scenario is going to be doing that. I imagined the husk would just sit there flailing its arms, like they do to us before jumping on us.

Modifié par Volcan5000, 18 février 2013 - 04:19 .

[Epicawesomesauce]

Duke E wrote...

BioWare should think about making a RTS game of the 4 factions

Would buy in a heartbeat

[Reizo Ryuu]

Collectors would annihilate all the other factions:
-super fast moving units that take cover, throw grenades
-devastating dps from possessed units; captains would just maul phantoms.
-seeker swarms that stop powers, so prime wouldn't be able to spawn pets.
-geth stagger is less effective because bosses have much higher thresholds than players
-exploding units everywhere in the form of abominations, possessed abominations, seeker plagues
-only faction that can shoot through guardian shields.

Now Cerberus is a close second:
-Turrets....backed up by engineers these things will prolly kill most off all the factions mooks.
-Guardians, stupid AI turns them into one man armies, only a geth prime with lucky turret placement can deal with them.
-phantoms would maul geth, since they love to get up close; hunters wouldn't stand a chance.
-dragoon groups could single handedly kill most geth mooks, and even keep a prime busy for a bit since no sync kill.
-Nemeses everywhere would constantly strip shields from everything, and since enemies have no health gate, loldeadmooks.
-Atlas easily takes on a prime, especially when backup up by an engineer; just no contest.

Geth and Reaper is up for grabs for either of them simply cause of marauder phaeston one billion and banshees just teleporting to every mook and killing them.
Geth don't take cover, so most other factions would just destroy them, the only have the prime and rocket troopers to carry them.
The combat drone is useless against banshees/preatorians/phantoms cause it's a power.

[Tyeme Downs]

Going to have to go with Collectors as #1.
Main reason - Seeker swarms are going to maul other factions, and collectors put out a ton of them. Swarms don't just mess up powers...they drop shields, reduce accuracy (and ROF?). The Geth will take the worst pounding from these since they rely most heavily on shields.

#2 Cerberus
Main reason - They bring alot of diversity to the table. Cerberus are fast, use cover and grenades, and have units that can effectivly deal with almost anything. I believe they are the only factions that might be able to take down the collectors.

#3 Geth
Main reason - The Geth are so weak that BW has to resort to "cheats" to be made viable. They pack up, making them vunerable to things that go BOOM (grenades, possessed). Their best units (pyros, hunters) don't take cover , making them suseptable to the murderous firepower other factions can bring to bear. They are slow.

#4 Reapers
Main reason - They stop fighting. Their trooper units will stop fighting to "buff up". Kill something in front of a cerberus turret, or Geth pyro and they'll happily go to their deaths in favor of lunch rather than fighting. Reaper strength is their boss units. Unsupported by lower units,reaper bosses will fall quickly to other factions like they do to players. They also have the weakest boss units of the factions.

EDIT: Would love to have BW run some tests and give us a report of how the factions did against one another (if they haven't already run secret tests).

Modifié par Tyeme Downs, 18 février 2013 - 06:04 .

[DeathNyx]

Cerberus, those turrets are too strong.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Geth win VIA stunlock.

[Kenshen]

Sojiro888 wrote...

* PS : I just noticed that turrets have a very high RoF and since players do not have armor they are unlikely to have armor mitigation. So their insane damage on players is likely to be vastly less effective at taking out armored targets.

I have sabotaged a turret before and then watched it tear down an atlas before it was destroyed so it is useful against armored foes.  Still very weak I doubt it survives a 3 shot attack from a prime or any other boss unit it aggros.  Now if more than 1 is setup in a crossfire pattern that I tend to see would be deadly to pretty much anything.

[browntrout79]

 Let's get a RTS with all the factions. Geth, Krogans, Salarians, humans. EA consumer research complete. Best seller?
Also, why no mouse support for Xbox? Easiest control scheme for RTS by far. 

[Sojiro888]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Geth win VIA stunlock.

No.

Geth might do well, but it won't be because of stunlock. Ennemy stun cool down makes stunlock impossible.

[Urbynwyldcat]

Collectors would win easily. They never seem to reload. Plus the scion grenade spamming would break down any resistance from the other factions. Phantoms wouldn't get close enough to do damage, prime pets would be annihilated instantly and banshees can't touch praetorians and their shields. The seeker swarms would stop the enemy powers too.

[Urbynwyldcat]

Epicawesomesauce wrote...

Duke E wrote...

BioWare should think about making a RTS game of the 4 factions

Would buy in a heartbeat

Plus all other races as individual factions. I would sell my car for that game.

Edit: sorry, double post 

Modifié par Urbynwyldcat, 18 février 2013 - 10:07 .

[LoonySpectre]

The seeker swarms would stop the enemy powers too.

The thing is, there are not many enemies that use powers. Marauders (non-attacking), Brutes (if Charge is considered a power), Ravagers (if releasing Swarmers is considered a power), Banshees, Geth Hunters (Cloak), Geth Primes (Turrets and Drones), Nemeses (Assassination), Engineers (Turret), Dragoons (Lunge/Smash). The only enemy that would really suffer from Seeker Swarms is Phantom that uses 3 powers (Cloak, Phase Disintegrator, Biotic Protector). But the swarms won't do anything against Rocket Troopers, Pyros or Centurions (as far as I recall, you can still throw grenades even when you're Seeker Swarmed).

Modifié par LoonySpectre, 19 février 2013 - 07:38 .

[Riot Inducer]

I'm a bit late to this party but I'll add my thoughts since it's an interesting discussion.

1.) Collectors: They have the largest statistical advantage since every one of their units has more health and hits harder than comparable units of other factions, and that's before you take into account the possession mechanic.

Their basic troopers and captains are deadly, durable and fast. The captains also put out a steady stream of seekers that, while not having as much of an impact with their power denial would no doubt be excellent decoys vs enemy AI. Additionally the trooper and captain melee attack is fast and chainable, something no other trooper & shielded trooper has, they'd be able to fend off light rush units like husks and hunters all on their own. Then there's the abominations that would cause considerable damage even if they get gunned down quickly to things like cerberus turrets.

The scions would be the biggest tool of destruction of the faction though imo, they're deadly at long range and have the single most powerful attack of any enemy in MP, they also tend to appear in pairs, no enemy boss unit could survive a scion bombardment for very long and every trooper would go down within 1-2 shots, add in their massive range melee attack and significant durability and they could easily fend off rush units as well.

I don't think preatorians would be as deadly against massed enemies, they're realitively easily staggered and their long sync kill animation would really slow them down when chewing through enemy troopers, still they would demolish troopers and bosses alike when they set up to laser or get possessed. Additionally their massive health pool and fast movement speed would make them a near perfect meatshield and really kill the effectiveness of cerberus turret kill zones.

2.)Cerberus: Their diverse array of units and especially several that would take major advantage of the limitations of AI would make cerberus extremely effective in Ai vs AI matches.

Troopers and centurions are pretty standard and don't really bring a whole lot to the table but they're baseline effective. The real showstoppers in the cerberus infantry would be the nemesis who could actualy inflict some nasty casaulties from range thanks to no healthgate for enemies and the guardian who would be able to bring most enemy units to a halt. Very few enemy attacks could deal with guardians easily.

Cerberus doesn't lack in the rush unit category either and dragoons are some of the most relentless S.O.B.s in the game, they'd be able to trade blows with best of em and could easily take out lighter troops without issue. Combine that with phantoms backing them up and cerberus might not even need to rely on it's guardians or turrets. The one downfall of phantoms is that they are vulnerable to other sync kill units and would likely get smacked down when they try to melee down a banshee or preatorian.

The trio of engineers, turrets and atlas would let cerberus outlast all but the toughest opposition. One or two well placed turrets could decimate even the toughest enemy groups. The atlas itself is no pushover either, second in durability only to the preatorian and able to put out a lot of very deadly firepower, getting overun by rush units or outnumbered by artillery units is the only way I see an atlas going down quickly. If that engineer is healing the atlas then you'd have a pretty much unstoppable duo until the engineer gets targetted.

3.)Geth: The masters of stunlock, sadly I don't think stunlock alone would let them win out against the other factions.

The basic trooper while relatively durable and good shots lack any special ability of any kind, this would be especially disasterous against cerberus gaurdians as basic troopers of other factions could at least grenade them.

The rocket trooper on the other hand looks to make up for this with tracking projectiles that would stun most small units. Along with their ability to double-quadruple fire and they'd likely be the single most deadly "shielded trooper" class out of any of the factions.

The hunter is more difficult to gauge, the fact that they can cloak indeffinetly would make them one of the more effective rush units despite their slow speed. That and their ability to stun and resist stun would make them a match for the phantom if they have at least one other ally helping them out.

The pyro is one of the highest dps units the geth have, which is both good and problematic since they'd likely be one of the first things to be gunned down when advancing against enemy artillery. However I think they'd be able to carve through other rush units without too much trouble as they'd always have a numbers advantage over the other faction's rush units. They'd also probably be the number one boss killer for the geth due to their sheer damage.

The bombers are a bit strange to figure in but they'd easily be the single best unit for taking out cerberus guardians since they always land directly behind their target. Between the hunters, pyros and bombers the geth have a massive edge against other faction's rush units but a massive disadvantage against enemy artillery which would be a real problem against cerberus with their turrets and the collectors with the scions.

The prime is no pushover and with the drone would be able to really hapmer the effectiveness of enemy boss units. Still it has significantly less health and lower overall damage than the atlas which would probably be it's undoing in boss heavy battles.

4.) Reapers: Yeah a lot of people have been ranking them the lowest, but I don't think they'd lose quite as badly as some people seem to think.

Cannibals are a joke, plain and simple, even the enemy AI would be able to easily exploit their hunger to quickly dispatch hordes of these guys. Combine that with their lack of a dodge and you've got the worst trooper in the game.

Husks are slightly more effective cannon fodder/distractions since they'll always try to actually engage the enemy.

Marauders somewhat make up for the ineffectiveness of the cannibals in straight combat prowess however they also hinder their allies a bit by immobilize-armoring them and themselves at unfortunate times. This behavior would be many a maurauder's undoing if any high damage or sync kill unit is around.

Brutes, I think, would be the underdog stars of the reaper show. They're kind of underwhelming against players but their durability and massive AoE strikes would make them a force to be reckoned with against massed enemy troopers and rush units. That and their sync kill being the fastest in the game means they wouldn't even be slowed down like other sync kill units.

Ravagers would have a lot of responsibility in an AI vs Ai match being the dedicated artillery unit and also the single most effective boss killer the reapers have. If brutes would be as effective as I suspect I think the ravagers could really deal out some damage before tougher units like atlases or scions could be brought to bear on them.

Banshees, despite being the terror of players would probably not have all that big of an impact in a AI fight. Their sync kill is very long and their other attacks are rather far and few between, despite the power their degen would have.