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Hosts on PC using 30fps lock.......

Débuté par Qui-Gon Glenn , févr. 17 2013 07:03

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#126
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Posté 17 février 2013 - 09:47

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Caratinoid wrote...

GunWraith wrote...

upinya slayin wrote...

Air Quotes wrote...

The
game is fundamentally broken. Experience varies DRASTICALLY depending
on FPS. On modern game that's released in 2012 it's unacceptable. It
should handle 60 FPS with no issues.

Yet it's made for 30 and
with 60, you're fighting a 2x tougher enemies. All balance changes, all
buffs and nerfs are meaningless, when the core is broken.  

And Bioware refuses to comment. 


for
the record, bioware hasn't officially said what framerate its intended
to run on PC so your staement isn't true. it could be meant for 60 on
the PC. until BW makes an offficial statement you shouldn't say that


As someone has already mentioned, the cap is 62 FPS in Coalesced, so unless you modded the settings as Cara described, you don't go above that. Cara's thread merely proved what many have thought from the beginning based on actual experiences; if you have a good pc and host (or solo), then the difficulty is harder.

As I said in the original thread, I could always tell when a bad host dropped and I became host because the difficulty increased noticeably. You also notice fun things like Phantoms DR from acrobatics being ridiculously higher.

The problem for BW is, this is an Engine issue and likely unfixable.

This is not an engine issue, it's part of the ai logic coded by Bioware. The engine itself runs fine at 500FPS.

 

Can it be made to scale up and down with FPS? 

#127
MoeRayShep
Posté 17 février 2013 - 09:49

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Well, after reading through this thread (barring some unfortunate fighting) I'm pretty much in-line with Air Quotes:
the game is broken. AI efficacy scales with host frame-rate. There is no mechanism to compensate for this, which you'd think would just be a matter of simple arithmetic-- divide all scaling variables by (hostfps:30).
This explains why, especially in conjunction with lag, enemy behavior can seem so utterly arbitrary.
This isn't surprising, given that this game also lacks basic ping functionality and uses uncompressed .wav for voice chat.

The developers who designed gameplay, maps and characters made a great product. The ones who did the technical work on it should be fired.

#128
GunWraith
Posté 17 février 2013 - 09:50

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Caratinoid wrote...

Air Quotes wrote...

@ Caratinoid?

Elaborate please :P

What's to elaborate, these stupid threads are getting out of hand and I'm partially responsible for this.<_<


But it is a valid issue that BW needs to investigate.

#129
k1ngl1ves
Posté 17 février 2013 - 09:51

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XBOX Master Race. You are all welcome!

Game works just fine for me!!!

Modifié par k1ngl1ves, 17 février 2013 - 09:52 .

#130
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Posté 17 février 2013 - 09:52

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GunWraith wrote...

Caratinoid wrote...

Air Quotes wrote...

@ Caratinoid?

Elaborate please :P

What's to elaborate, these stupid threads are getting out of hand and I'm partially responsible for this.<_<


But it is a valid issue that BW needs to investigate.

 

Seconded. And ASAP. 

#131
Fortack
Posté 17 février 2013 - 10:07

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k1ngl1ves wrote...

XBOX Master Race. You are all welcome!

Game works just fine for me!!!


The funny thing is that this topic is about the Divine Masters being upset by how things work for the console peasants :P

#132
spudspot
Posté 17 février 2013 - 10:12

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Fortack wrote...

The funny thing is that this topic is about the Divine Masters being upset by how things work for the console peasants :P


Though we don't even know yet if PC 30fps = console 30fps. (I mean besides people from both sides who are sure that gameplay vids of the respective other platform totally prove their point.)

#133
lightswitch
Posté 17 février 2013 - 10:13

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Fortack wrote...

k1ngl1ves wrote...

XBOX Master Race. You are all welcome!

Game works just fine for me!!!


The funny thing is that this topic is about the Divine Masters being upset by how things work for the console peasants :P


it is?

#134
MoeRayShep
Posté 17 février 2013 - 10:15

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Fortack wrote...

k1ngl1ves wrote...

XBOX Master Race. You are all welcome!

Game works just fine for me!!!


The funny thing is that this topic is about the Divine Masters being upset by how things work for the console peasants :P AI difficulty was linked to the locked framerate of a technically inferior platform.

Fixed that for you.
Granted I'm not big on being a PC chauvinist, but when your platform's superiority is turned into a giant liability by braindead programmers, one tends to get pissy.

#135
Xeraphas
Posté 17 février 2013 - 10:16

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One word of note here, the Enemy cheats big time. The biggest reason to use 30 fps is to help balance out the Enemies time dilation biased advantage. Any close call scenario will invariably go toward the enemy's side. You can have beaten that call by a mile and it still goes against you. That is why many people are probably using this adjustment to fix one of the most biased broken mechanics of the game.

Examples: You run past a banshee and get well passed her but are still grabbed. You biotic charge away from a brute moving toward you and yet you are grabbed no matter if you were at the beginning or the end of the charge and being in it at all should have prevented a grab. A phantom surprises you by materializing right behind you in a spot you just looked at and saw was clear of enemies, but you manage to feed her a face full of claymore. She still somehow shrugs this off with no stagger effect even and sync kills you. It does not even have to be sync kill examples to get a close call unfairly against the player.

#136
JGDD
Posté 17 février 2013 - 10:16

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MoeRayShep wrote...

[...] The ones who did the technical work on it should be fired.


The probably were let go already...only to be rehired for ME4. YAY! The cycle of horrible QA continues.

#137
DoubleHell
Posté 17 février 2013 - 10:18

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If I don't cap my FPS, I can't play reliably as a client to hosts anywhere, except for New Zealand, Australia, or the US West Coast.

30 FPS lets me play with just about any host, anywhere.

40 FPS lets me play with most hosts.

at 60 FPS, I rubber-band to any host not in NZ, AU, or US West.

#138
Uchimura
Posté 17 février 2013 - 10:20

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justgimmedudedammit wrote...

MoeRayShep wrote...

[...] The ones who did the technical work on it should be fired.


The probably were let go already...only to be rehired for ME4. YAY! The cycle of horrible QA continues.


So they should be fired for something hardly anyone took notice of before for a year in an otherwise highly functional game? Sounds good.

#139
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Posté 17 février 2013 - 10:23

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Uchimura wrote...

justgimmedudedammit wrote...

MoeRayShep wrote...

[...] The ones who did the technical work on it should be fired.


The probably were let go already...only to be rehired for ME4. YAY! The cycle of horrible QA continues.


So they should be fired for something hardly anyone took notice of before for a year in an otherwise highly functional game? Sounds good.

 

Actually we all took notice. By ****ing on BSN about broken Geth, abnormal accuracy, insane enemy awareness and so on and on for a WHOLE YEAR. And if you look at it closely - most of the posters were those with good PC's who were playing at 2x difficulty or more. 

Modifié par Air Quotes, 17 février 2013 - 10:25 .

#140
Fortack
Posté 17 février 2013 - 10:27

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spudspot wrote...

Fortack wrote...

The funny thing is that this topic is about the Divine Masters being upset by how things work for the console peasants :P


Though we don't even know yet if PC 30fps = console 30fps. (I mean besides people from both sides who are sure that gameplay vids of the respective other platform totally prove their point.)


The whole consoles vs pc thing is not the point of this thread, but it never hurts to beat yourself on the shoulder for being part of the Master Race :whistle:

It's just stupid that FPS affects AI performance significantly and the OP is worried that, when enough morons find out, PUGs will be infested by 30 FPS Farmers which, in my book, is almost as bad as missile glitchers.

#141
MoeRayShep
Posté 17 février 2013 - 10:29

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Uchimura wrote...

MoeRayShep wrote...

[...] The ones who did the technical work on it should be fired.

So they should be fired for something hardly anyone took notice of before for a year in an otherwise highly functional game? Sounds good.

First of all, the issue was discovered several months ago.
Secondly, and far more importantly, people noticed gameplay was erratic well before that!
They just didn't know the specific technical explanation for it. If you read Caratinoid's thread there's a whole bunch of people having that :o moment were they finally are able to tangibly describe something they couldn't quite pin down.
Finally, just think about how glaring an oversight this issue is in the abstract. Even if it minimally affected gameplay (which it totally doesn't) it's incredibly poor craftsmanship and should have been obvious well before ship.
Yeah, they should be fired.
Sounds good.

#142
CmnDwnWrkn
Posté 17 février 2013 - 10:31

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spudspot wrote...

Fortack wrote...

The funny thing is that this topic is about the Divine Masters being upset by how things work for the console peasants :P


Though we don't even know yet if PC 30fps = console 30fps. (I mean besides people from both sides who are sure that gameplay vids of the respective other platform totally prove their point.)


I haven't seen a 30 fps PC video yet that shows anything close to the PS3 gameplay.  My best guess would be that BioWare intended the game to cap at 62 fps on PC and didn't really test at lower fps.  And they likely made adjustments to the ai so that console 30 fps would approximate 60 fps PC in gameplay.

MoeRayShep wrote...

Uchimura wrote...

MoeRayShep wrote...

[...] The ones who did the technical work on it should be fired.

So
they should be fired for something hardly anyone took notice of before
for a year in an otherwise highly functional game? Sounds good.

First of all, the issue was discovered several months ago.
Secondly, and far more importantly, people noticed gameplay was erratic well before that!
They just didn't know the specific technical explanation for it. If you read Caratinoid's thread there's a whole bunch of people having that [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/surprised.png[/smilie] moment were they finally are able to tangibly describe something they couldn't quite pin down.
Finally,
just think about how glaring an oversight this issue is in the
abstract. Even if it minimally affected gameplay (which it totally
doesn't) it's incredibly poor craftsmanship and should have been obvious
well before ship.
Yeah, they should be fired.
Sounds good.


From what I've seen, the testing on this game was never adequate.  There were a lot of things that should have been caught, but weren't.  They may have been rushed pre-ship and couldn't do the proper amount of testing that would have uncovered these issues.

Modifié par CmnDwnWrkn, 17 février 2013 - 10:34 .

#143
Feneckus
Posté 17 février 2013 - 10:33

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Hmm, I should try 30 FPS vs Geth.

I wonder how less BS I'd get. Would I still get rocket troopers firing their rockets and then turning around to face me ? Would they still double/triple tap ? Would Primes shoot as soon as you got out of cover ?

That would explain why the most vocal Geth haters are on PC.

#144
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Posté 17 février 2013 - 10:34

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Fortack wrote...

spudspot wrote...

Fortack wrote...

The funny thing is that this topic is about the Divine Masters being upset by how things work for the console peasants :P


Though we don't even know yet if PC 30fps = console 30fps. (I mean besides people from both sides who are sure that gameplay vids of the respective other platform totally prove their point.)


The whole consoles vs pc thing is not the point of this thread, but it never hurts to beat yourself on the shoulder for being part of the Master Race :whistle:

It's just stupid that FPS affects AI performance significantly and the OP is worried that, when enough morons find out, PUGs will be infested by 30 FPS Farmers which, in my book, is almost as bad as missile glitchers.

 

Actually we would only get easier games. That's it. And by easier I mean - console difficulty/intended difficulty games, which may seem too easy for vets, who are used to 60+ FPS.  Joiners can play at any framerate, so only hosts will suffer 30 FPS thing. 

#145
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Posté 17 février 2013 - 10:35

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Feneckus wrote...

Hmm, I should try 30 FPS vs Geth.

I wonder how less BS I'd get. Would I still get rocket troopers firing their rockets and then turning around to face me ? Would they still double/triple tap ? Would Primes shoot as soon as you got out of cover ?

That would explain why the most vocal Geth haters are on PC.

 

They will still double and triple tap, but they will give you more time to react. Actually Geth are still the worst at 30 FPS. 

#146
Caratinoid
Posté 17 février 2013 - 10:36

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Air Quotes wrote...

Uchimura wrote...

justgimmedudedammit wrote...

MoeRayShep wrote...

[...] The ones who did the technical work on it should be fired.


The probably were let go already...only to be rehired for ME4. YAY! The cycle of horrible QA continues.


So they should be fired for something hardly anyone took notice of before for a year in an otherwise highly functional game? Sounds good.

 

Actually we all took notice. By ****ing on BSN about broken Geth, abnormal accuracy, insane enemy awareness and so on and on for a WHOLE YEAR. And if you look at it closely - most of the posters were those with good PC's who were playing at 2x difficulty or more. 

Oh right geth.:pinched:

Their design is just wrong, I mean someone there thought that adding stunlock in a network based game was a good idea. Was it not obvious that a person with 200 ms ping will not be able to do anything when all his actions keep getting cancelled and the next stagger arrives before he can even see it, you can press the buttons all you want but it will not do anything, even the host can barely escape stunlock. And why stunlock in the first place? To prevent cover abuse on FBW by forcing the players in to cover? Yo dawg I heard you use cover to much so I ... no really, how was it going to work? what the **** were they thinking? And then we got more staggering units ... just great ... ok I'm getting pissed here and slightly off topic, I'll stop.

#147
CmnDwnWrkn
Posté 17 février 2013 - 10:37

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Air Quotes wrote...

Fortack wrote...

spudspot wrote...

Fortack wrote...

The funny thing is that this topic is about the Divine Masters being upset by how things work for the console peasants :P


Though we don't even know yet if PC 30fps = console 30fps. (I mean besides people from both sides who are sure that gameplay vids of the respective other platform totally prove their point.)


The whole consoles vs pc thing is not the point of this thread, but it never hurts to beat yourself on the shoulder for being part of the Master Race :whistle:

It's just stupid that FPS affects AI performance significantly and the OP is worried that, when enough morons find out, PUGs will be infested by 30 FPS Farmers which, in my book, is almost as bad as missile glitchers.

 

Actually we would only get easier games. That's it. And by easier I mean - console difficulty/intended difficulty games, which may seem too easy for vets, who are used to 60+ FPS.  Joiners can play at any framerate, so only hosts will suffer 30 FPS thing. 


I find it hard to believe that 30 fps was the intended rate on PC.  If that was the case, they would have hard-capped it at 30 fps.

Modifié par CmnDwnWrkn, 17 février 2013 - 10:38 .

#148
JGDD
Posté 17 février 2013 - 10:41

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CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

I find it hard to believe that 30 fps was the intended rate on PC.  If that was the case, they would have hard-capped it at 30 fps.

I don't find that difficult to believe when you consider these are the same people that left in a 70 degree FoV for PC.

#149
Guest_Air Quotes_*
Posté 17 février 2013 - 10:44

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CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

Air Quotes wrote...

Fortack wrote...

spudspot wrote...

Fortack wrote...

The funny thing is that this topic is about the Divine Masters being upset by how things work for the console peasants :P


Though we don't even know yet if PC 30fps = console 30fps. (I mean besides people from both sides who are sure that gameplay vids of the respective other platform totally prove their point.)


The whole consoles vs pc thing is not the point of this thread, but it never hurts to beat yourself on the shoulder for being part of the Master Race :whistle:

It's just stupid that FPS affects AI performance significantly and the OP is worried that, when enough morons find out, PUGs will be infested by 30 FPS Farmers which, in my book, is almost as bad as missile glitchers.

 

Actually we would only get easier games. That's it. And by easier I mean - console difficulty/intended difficulty games, which may seem too easy for vets, who are used to 60+ FPS.  Joiners can play at any framerate, so only hosts will suffer 30 FPS thing. 


I find it hard to believe that 30 fps was the intended rate on PC.  If that was the case, they would have hard-capped it at 30 fps.

 

Console port. And 30 FPS hard cap would be noticed way faster than abnormal A.I. Because it looks HORRIBLE. Also the game is made for SP. And SP is WAY easier even on Insanity, you have time slow downs, animation slow downs, you are OP as hell + you have teammates who do stuff on command.  

MP was scrapped in a hurry and Bioware was probably VERY SUPRISED how well it was recieved. 

#150
MoeRayShep
Posté 17 février 2013 - 10:44

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CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

I find it hard to believe that 30 fps was the intended rate on PC.  If that was the case, they would have hard-capped it at 30 fps.

"They would have" presumes competence. The reason we have this issue in the first place is due to the lack thereof.
EDIT: yeah, and also because as AirQuotes pointed out, low framerates are much more obvious. Depends on how cynical you want to be, oversight vs. deliberately shipped buggy.
Maybe fps-based difficulty on PC doesn't directly translate to console difficulty; it doesn't matter, except wrt e-peen jousting and platform flaming.
The problem here is that difficulty scales with host fps. BioWare needs to find a way to make difficulty independent of framerate, simple as that.

Modifié par MoeRayShep, 17 février 2013 - 10:48 .

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