267 réponses à ce sujet

[Steelcan]

@Dean_the_young. I'd add on to your analysis that the Reapers really can't be topped. Escalation in threat is usually important with a series, the baddies get worse and worse. How do you top gigantic robots that exterminate organic life?

Modifié par Steelcan, 18 février 2013 - 01:12 .

[Red Panda]

Steelcan wrote...

OperatingWookie wrote...

Great series so far based on sales.

. So Call of Duty is "great"

A changed audience does not equal a dead franchise.

[Dunabar]

I'm not going to let the little things keep me from enjoying the MEU, if I did then I'm really only just eliminating the fun for myself. Is the franchise dead? all a matter of opinion but my opinion is no, that its actually far from it.

However if others choose not to continue with Mass effect after this, that is their business, and honestly nobody has authority to tell them to go on or stay with the plan either which way. But I'm not going to stop enjoying the MEU just because some people are unhappy. I will just smile, nod, and turn my back on them.

Modifié par Dunabar, 18 février 2013 - 01:15 .

[JamesFaith]

Steelcan wrote...

@Dean_the_young. I'd add on to your analysis that the Reapers really can't be topped. Escalation I. Threat is usually important with a series the baddies get worse and worse. How do you top gigantic robots that exterminate organic life?

Not every time. Bond movies are great example of this.

They were creating worse and worse villain and result was Hugo Drax trying sterilize Earth and space battle of astronauts. But then For your eyes only came - no saving world, they rather choose classical spy plot about lost cipher device - and Bond movies catch new breath.

And later Tomorrow never die became absurd exhibition of technotoys and special effects with space weapon, cybernetic suit and DNA transplantations. New Bond movie - Cassino Royale - again turned back to roots and Bond was ressurected again.

Sometimes smaller scale story can be more beneficial then bigger and bigger enemy.

[Steelcan]

I'd like it ME didn't end up in that cycle.

[PainCakesx]

I don't think the loss of the Reaper is necessarily the main limiting factor.

I'll go back to the recent "Dark Knight" trilogy as an example. TDKR had undeniably the biggest threat of all 3 - a physically strong tactician with plans of nuking the entire city to oblivion. He represented an extreme physical and mental threat to not only the protagonist, but to everyone.

In TDK, the Joker was considered by many to be the more compelling villain, but the scope of what he was trying to accomplish was much smaller. His main opus in the movie was blowing up a couple of ferries compared to Bane wanting to set off a nuclear weapon in the city.

A villain doesn't necessarily need to be a bigger threat in the purest sense. If the villain is well written, compelling and provides enough of a threat, it shouldn't be a big problem.

In terms of ME, the Reapers played a much smaller, or at least less visible role in ME2. Despite this, I personally enjoyed ME2 the most out of all 3 games. 

Modifié par PainCakesx, 18 février 2013 - 01:21 .

[3DandBeyond]

Mdoggy1214 wrote...

(I would just like to stress that "dead" does not mean "broke". Of course there's still money to be made with Mass Effect. But if you asked me what's more important, how much money a franchise makes or how good it is, i would tell you the quality is more important. And Mass Effect definitely is having an issue of quality with a lot of people.)

 I'm sure we've all heard people say Mass Effect was the Star Trek or Star Wars of our generation. Before ME3 i felt like that was somewhat accurate, because it definitely had a rich enough lore and universe to become the next big thing. One of the most popular franchises in gaming, and who knows, perhaps it could've stretched out into other forms of media like television and film. The potential for it was certaintly there.

But then the ending happened, which quickly and effectively split the fanbase into two. On one side you have fans who feel like the franchise is ruined, and on the other side you have people who decided to remain fans, regardless of whether they hated or loved the ending. But it's pretty clear that the franchise and it's fanbase took a colossal hit, and really hasn't made a significant enough recovery. It does look like the future of Mass Effect rests on the success of the next game, but I feel that whatever they do is gonna end up getting overshadowed by ME3's ending, unless maybe if they did some sort of reboot.

Do I think it's a dead franchise? On a personal level and as of right now, I believe it is. However I know as a whole it still has fans. But the way I see it, any chances Mass Effect had to become a massive franchise on the level of something like Star Trek, has been destroyed. That doesn't mean it won't make a comeback, but I don't see that happening.

And believe me, I want nothing more than to Mass Effect to make a comeback.

OP, you hit on some important things here.  While it is of course extremely important for a mass marketed item to make money, it is often even more important that it be something the creators can be proud of.  It also is something that a creator of such a work wants people to really like, even love.  It takes a long time to create.  It is something that you as a creator live and breathe and put yourself into.  If it does not sell well, then it's certainly not well-liked or just not well-received.  If it sells well but gets trash-talked, then it's not well-liked.  And if it sells and is reviewed well but is not something you as a creator really are proud of, well then something is missing.  You failed on some level.  But the truth is in gaming, great games generally often sell themselves.

If you build it, they will come.  Make it good and people will buy it, it will sell well-I've seen this with a lot of very small dev's titles.  Fans sold the game just by liking it.

As far as the story and Star Trek or Star Wars.  Well, Bioware wanted ME3 to be the breakout game that would do for Mass Effect and gaming what Star Wars did for movies and SF movies in particular.  They wanted a blockbuster that would be epic and be remembered.  This was stated in many interviews.  And in a lot of ways ME did have that chance.  ME3 sold well (a lot of preorders) because of the name Mass Effect.  But a lot of the games got returned (Amazon and other companies made a special exception for this game) and many were just sold used to places like Best Buy and Gamestop (near me these stores had piles of the game).

It's telling that a writer for Star Trek: TNG thought ME3's ending (EC and all) was so bad that she offerred her help on writing a decent one.  She even took the opportunity to explain succinctly just what was wrong with the ending-and she was not the only SF writer to do so.

All they had to do was what they promised.  And in that light all they had to do was really end the thing-not create some supreme AI with psychic powers who can foretell the future and know just what is inevitable based upon his programming by the Leviathans-the most inept species ever to exist.  It's a bad joke.  They could fix it, but since the last DLC (as far as we know) is already finished and just being tweaked and all and it's been said they won't fix it, well too bad.

It's said of politicians and celebrities that the biggest mistake you can make is starting to believe your own press releases.  Well, Bioware seems to have started to believe they could do no wrong and that merely saying something was going to be epic, and like Star Wars for gaming, was enough.  They forgot you actually have to create something truly of great quality, not some pretentious hollow pseudo-intellectual bloated thing.  They needed to stick with the story.

Sure I hope they can come back from this and do something great.  I never wish anyone anything bad.  The problem now is that any sequel type game will have to make it that none of the ending choices really mattered that much.  Not great for a franchise that prided itself on the phrase "choices matter".




And since they seem destined to head into more of a Call of Duty type territory with MP mattering far more than SP, they might want to consider that Bungee has already beaten them to it.  They have a lot of the talent from the team that used to make CoD titles, working on a space epic with Story, MP, coop, and even real life interaction.  Destiny.

http://www.destinythegame.com/

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 18 février 2013 - 01:34 .

[BearlyHere]

Nykara wrote...

Brovikk Rasputin wrote...

Of course not. Most people on here will pre-order the next ME game after a few trailers and screen shots. They just don't want to admit it yet.

That is often true for a lot of games with people who say they aren't going to do that and then do. However with Mass Effect I have seen more people stick to what they have said they will do then those who have not. I know I have been guilty in the past of saying such things - and not sticking to it. However with Mass Effect so far I have done every thing I said I would. I have not purchased a single DLC and my partner has not either. I did quit playing SWTOR and have not gone back to playing it even though I was/am still interested in some of the class stories there. I did purchase DAO but only when it was a couple of $$ on steam. Other then that I haven't touched any bioware products since ME3. If the ME3 ending is not 'fixed' before the next game comes out I wont be pre-ordering it or even purchasing it before it is cheap in the stores some place. Why would I pay full price for what might be another triology that will probably get messed up in the end?

I think part of the problem is the Bioware still thinks their audience is 15 to 24 year old males who throw down their money the minute they see a trailer. I also haven't given Bioware a dime since the EC, and won't unless the peer reviews of the next DLC show that it's worth my time and money. This isn't just ME3. To me it's been a last straw of what we feared years ago when it was first announced that EA bought Bioware.

DA:O was great, but I believe it had been in development before EA. Aside from the problems with the story and first day DLC with DA2, the story was too short, and there was too much auto dialogue, and too much cutting corners in stupid ways like recycled settings. The DLC was underwhelming, and the last one was so broken I could hardly get through it without crashing.

I still jumped on the hype train for ME3 and preordered the collectors' edition and first day DLC, even though I felt like I was being rolled. But no more. It's not even the horrible ending so much as it's Bioware's stony silence other than an occasional, "We care. We are listening." I not only won't preorder the next ME, I also won't preorder DA:I. In fact, I haven't preordered anything from anyone since ME3, except for Project Eternity, which doesn't count. Now I will wait for player reviews and then rent a game before anyone gets my money.

[AshenShug4r]

They can redeem the franchise, they just need to refrain from pulling another idiot move like this again.

[spirosz]

3DandBeyond wrote...
All they had to do was what they promised.  

I think that is not just a problem with Bioware, but the fans taking everything their PR says to heart.  Don't get me wrong, I was very attached to this series, but as I look back at it and viewing it from a more realistic expectation, I should of known that they wouldn't be able to nail everything they were trying to achieve, especially with how ME2 didn't really build up anything, concerning the story, where as it built a more personal story for me (which isn't a bad thing), it didn't advance the plot to a point where ME3 would flow and pace well and that is very important for games. 

I'm sure Bioware tried their best (at least I hope so) in terms of what they were under, pressure, budget, etc - fan demand, lol.  

Modifié par spirosz, 18 février 2013 - 01:41 .

[goose2989]

No, but it will take longer to reach that point now than if ME3 had gone out with a bang.

[3DandBeyond]

BearlyHere wrote...

Nykara wrote...

Brovikk Rasputin wrote...

Of course not. Most people on here will pre-order the next ME game after a few trailers and screen shots. They just don't want to admit it yet.

That is often true for a lot of games with people who say they aren't going to do that and then do. However with Mass Effect I have seen more people stick to what they have said they will do then those who have not. I know I have been guilty in the past of saying such things - and not sticking to it. However with Mass Effect so far I have done every thing I said I would. I have not purchased a single DLC and my partner has not either. I did quit playing SWTOR and have not gone back to playing it even though I was/am still interested in some of the class stories there. I did purchase DAO but only when it was a couple of $$ on steam. Other then that I haven't touched any bioware products since ME3. If the ME3 ending is not 'fixed' before the next game comes out I wont be pre-ordering it or even purchasing it before it is cheap in the stores some place. Why would I pay full price for what might be another triology that will probably get messed up in the end?

I think part of the problem is the Bioware still thinks their audience is 15 to 24 year old males who throw down their money the minute they see a trailer. I also haven't given Bioware a dime since the EC, and won't unless the peer reviews of the next DLC show that it's worth my time and money. This isn't just ME3. To me it's been a last straw of what we feared years ago when it was first announced that EA bought Bioware.

DA:O was great, but I believe it had been in development before EA. Aside from the problems with the story and first day DLC with DA2, the story was too short, and there was too much auto dialogue, and too much cutting corners in stupid ways like recycled settings. The DLC was underwhelming, and the last one was so broken I could hardly get through it without crashing.

I still jumped on the hype train for ME3 and preordered the collectors' edition and first day DLC, even though I felt like I was being rolled. But no more. It's not even the horrible ending so much as it's Bioware's stony silence other than an occasional, "We care. We are listening." I not only won't preorder the next ME, I also won't preorder DA:I. In fact, I haven't preordered anything from anyone since ME3, except for Project Eternity, which doesn't count. Now I will wait for player reviews and then rent a game before anyone gets my money.

You're exactly right here.  The problem is that BW and a lot of other game devs are just not going where the money is.  People are getting fed up with gaming.  Sure some titles are selling well, but some stand by ones have been real dogs.  They are not factoring the notion that the gaming demographics has changed.  Kinect as well as the Wii and even tablet and phone gaming has brought in a wider demographic.  In fact, CoD (Black Ops 2) seems more like it's been taken over by 5 year olds whereas a lot of other games (Uncharted and soon to be released, The Last of Us) and some games with great stories are appealing to a broader range of people.  Gamers are getting older and more diverse.

EA has of late ruined a lot of great titles.  Take a look at Dead Space 3-this is the direction I think EA games are destined to take.  You basically are all but forced into coop because parts of the game cannot be accessed in SP and again, lots of microtransactions.  And the story is just meh.  Dead Space 1 was one of my favorite games-haunting and even scary.  They ruined The Sims 3.  Sims 1 and 2 were great games.  Now, they are constantly trying to get you to buy stuff with real money.  What is it with all these games with 3 in them?  You'd think by the time they got there, they'd know what to do.

[riesenwiesel]

Episode I-III didn't ruin the Star Wars franchise either.

[Dean_the_Young]

Steelcan wrote...

@Dean_the_young. I'd add on to your analysis that the Reapers really can't be topped. Escalation in threat is usually important with a series, the baddies get worse and worse. How do you top gigantic robots that exterminate organic life?

Bigger, badder robots running rampant across the universe and not a mere galaxy.


More seriously, the prospect of an extra-galactic threat is always out there. The Reapers have kept our cycle the way it is for at least a billion years... but what have they kept out during the same time?

Maybe the Catalyst really does have some basis for fearing a technological singularity, because a Synthetic vs. Organic war of inter-galactic proportions has been going on forever right next door. Won't we feel silly when they come knocking on our door?

[Dean_the_Young]

TheBlackBaron wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

So, to go back to the start, no. I don't think the ending doomed the ME franchise. It could even well continue on a variety of paths: it could try to be a lot of ME2-style companion-based games. It could be a standard sci-fi space opera with political focuses. It could do something else.

But I think the biggest anchor around its neck from this time forward comes from the loss of the Reapers as the Big Bad. Not how they ended.

Dean hits the nail on the head here.

Part of me wonder if that wasn't part of the reasoning for introducing the Leviathans, in order to give the next few mainline games something to focus on. It'd be ridiculously formulaic, yes, especially since you'd basically just be fighting organic Reapers, but the ME series from the start as been an attempt at reconstructing the space opera with a veneer of hard science fiction (note that I said "attempt" - you're entitled to your opinion on hoe well it achieved that). Hard to get more formulaic than that. They key is to do something new and interesting with that formula. 

I hadn't thought of the Leviathans in quite that way, but I suppose the ycould. They certainly have the tone to be an ominous manipulator from the shadows, while still having hyper-advanced technology.

[Dean_the_Young]

JamesFaith wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

@Dean_the_young. I'd add on to your analysis that the Reapers really can't be topped. Escalation I. Threat is usually important with a series the baddies get worse and worse. How do you top gigantic robots that exterminate organic life?

Not every time. Bond movies are great example of this.

They were creating worse and worse villain and result was Hugo Drax trying sterilize Earth and space battle of astronauts. But then For your eyes only came - no saving world, they rather choose classical spy plot about lost cipher device - and Bond movies catch new breath.

And later Tomorrow never die became absurd exhibition of technotoys and special effects with space weapon, cybernetic suit and DNA transplantations. New Bond movie - Cassino Royale - again turned back to roots and Bond was ressurected again.

Sometimes smaller scale story can be more beneficial then bigger and bigger enemy.

Part of the charm (and the hook) of the Bond series is that they were tailored to the cutting-edge science emphasis of the day. Space was a result of the space race, and Goldeneye was the cusp of the satelite age in full, and so on. It varied, yes, but it varied with the times.

I'm not sure ME can say the same: I'd like it if it did, but it was a lot more hung up on a particular hook (the Reapers as the real enemy) than Bond objectives have been.

[Wayning_Star]

What fans,imo, fail to realise, is that they are the Mass Effect Franchise. The backlash off of ME3 is probably why there'll probably be no sequels, as opined by a devilish teaser Mod a while back.

The harvest will continue..just no shep or reapers..in realtime.(maybe

[3DandBeyond]

spirosz wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...
All they had to do was what they promised.  

I think that is not just a problem with Bioware, but the fans taking everything their PR says to heart.  Don't get me wrong, I was very attached to this series, but as I look back at it and viewing it from a more realistic expectation, I should of known that they wouldn't be able to nail everything they were trying to achieve, especially with how ME2 didn't really build up anything, concerning the story, where as it built a more personal story for me (which isn't a bad thing), it didn't advance the plot to a point where ME3 would flow and pace well and that is very important for games. 

I'm sure Bioware tried their best (at least I hope so) in terms of what they were under, pressure, budget, etc - fan demand, lol.  

Don't misunderstand me.  I don't mean I thought they could pull off everything they hyped.  I know better than that.  From now on though, they've made me not trust anything a dev says.  And games that were in great franchises and were must buys for me are now all "wait and see".  No pre-ordering for me.  And don't get me wrong-shame on them for all that hype.  It was BS I know, but it's also a form of advertising.  It was meant to get people to buy.  And some people do believe them when they say things.  Those are promises and it's just plain is not right to even say that every fan that buys the game will be given a million dollars at the end if you don't intend on doing just that.

I mostly mean more the internal promise that is made within a story.  ME1 and 2 set the promise.  They created the MEU within which ME3 existed.  For me, both 1 and 2 did build up the story in that in 2 the Collectors were preparing the way for the reapers and with all that happened it should have been clear to the galaxy that the reapers were on the way.  But, nooooooooooo.  Shepard sits like a turd in detention.  The galaxy sits picking their noses.  Hackett must have been sleeping or something since Leviathan made it clear they all should have known that Sovereign was not Geth.  Leviathan even managed to mess up ME2-because there's no reason for Shepard and the Normandy to be out chasing after the Geth (Hackett knew it wasn't them).

But the promise even so, was that this was a story about more or less real people fighting a tangible foe-a monster.  It also set up the idea that no matter how bad things got, Shepard would find a way to save the day and to survive-one possible ending.  It was about you the player having a chance to really get a win.  ME3 has no such ending.  Promise number one, broken.

[spirosz]

Well, technically 3D, you do win all in three endings, in terms of the end of Reaper War, lol.

[Wayning_Star]

3DandBeyond wrote...

spirosz wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...
All they had to do was what they promised.  

I think that is not just a problem with Bioware, but the fans taking everything their PR says to heart.  Don't get me wrong, I was very attached to this series, but as I look back at it and viewing it from a more realistic expectation, I should of known that they wouldn't be able to nail everything they were trying to achieve, especially with how ME2 didn't really build up anything, concerning the story, where as it built a more personal story for me (which isn't a bad thing), it didn't advance the plot to a point where ME3 would flow and pace well and that is very important for games. 

I'm sure Bioware tried their best (at least I hope so) in terms of what they were under, pressure, budget, etc - fan demand, lol.  

Don't misunderstand me.  I don't mean I thought they could pull off everything they hyped.  I know better than that.  From now on though, they've made me not trust anything a dev says.  And games that were in great franchises and were must buys for me are now all "wait and see".  No pre-ordering for me.  And don't get me wrong-shame on them for all that hype.  It was BS I know, but it's also a form of advertising.  It was meant to get people to buy.  And some people do believe them when they say things.  Those are promises and it's just plain is not right to even say that every fan that buys the game will be given a million dollars at the end if you don't intend on doing just that.

I mostly mean more the internal promise that is made within a story.  ME1 and 2 set the promise.  They created the MEU within which ME3 existed.  For me, both 1 and 2 did build up the story in that in 2 the Collectors were preparing the way for the reapers and with all that happened it should have been clear to the galaxy that the reapers were on the way.  But, nooooooooooo.  Shepard sits like a turd in detention.  The galaxy sits picking their noses.  Hackett must have been sleeping or something since Leviathan made it clear they all should have known that Sovereign was not Geth.  Leviathan even managed to mess up ME2-because there's no reason for Shepard and the Normandy to be out chasing after the Geth (Hackett knew it wasn't them).

But the promise even so, was that this was a story about more or less real people fighting a tangible foe-a monster.  It also set up the idea that no matter how bad things got, Shepard would find a way to save the day and to survive-one possible ending.  It was about you the player having a chance to really get a win.  ME3 has no such ending.  Promise number one, broken.

I dunno, I won..other fans didn't like the way I, er Shep did it...but...who cares? Shrug

[Eterna]

Nope.

[Obadiah]

Wayning_Star wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...
...

But the promise even so, was that this was a story about more or less real people fighting a tangible foe-a monster.  It also set up the idea that no matter how bad things got, Shepard would find a way to save the day and to survive-one possible ending.  It was about you the player having a chance to really get a win.  ME3 has no such ending.  Promise number one, broken.

I dunno, I won..other fans didn't like the way I, er Shep did it...but...who cares? Shrug

I felt like I won as well.

[ElementL09]

I'd say the franchise took a hit, but its surely not ruined in a sense. Additionally with the trilogy ending Shepards/his cycles story to an extent, I'm more or less curious about whats next, like are we talking about a prequel or sequel or a game that takes place inbetween the events of the previous mass effect games. Or a complete reboot.

[3DandBeyond]

spirosz wrote...

Well, technically 3D, you do win all in three endings, in terms of the end of Reaper War, lol.

But no.  It's not winning something when it's really handed to you and you aren't given the choice of actually trying to get it for yourself.  You have really only one choice here-pick a color.  You aren't winning anything.  You're giving in to the crap programming of an AI by Leviathan, and whoever made the stupidly designed Crucible.  That's not a win in my book.  And it doesn't feel at all like one.

[Wayning_Star]

ElementL09 wrote...

I'd say the franchise took a hit, but its surely not ruined in a sense. Additionally with the trilogy ending Shepards/his cycles story to an extent, I'm more or less curious about whats next, like are we talking about a prequel or sequel or a game that takes place inbetween the events of the previous mass effect games. Or a complete reboot.

IF we can take a Mods word on it, the story is to end with ME3, no ME 4... Clean reboot is the word.

I'm thinking online stuff more, maybe with SP base, like now, but totally different play efforts. No reaps/shep/crewmates. All new stuff with another engine as well..but is speculation from ME 4 fan posts..getting locked because of old story hanger ons..apparently.