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Did the ending ruin the chances of Mass Effect becoming a giant, long lasting franchise?


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#176
wright1978

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CronoDragoon wrote...

The point is that some RPG elements translate well into enhancing the TPS aspects. Others do not. This is limiting our scope strictly to the gameplay, of course. If you want to talk about the larger role autodialogue played as an example of the RPG experience being diminished then I won't argue, except to say that I don't believe inconsequential dialogue wheels that amount to the same result hold inherent value that needs to be preserved. If BW could find the resources to make ubiquitous dialogue wheels that actually changed the story or characters then I'd be more inclined to support their implementation.


Disagree as i'm interested in player characterised protaganist's rather than defined ones. There is imo a very limited definition for a such a thing  as inconsequential dialogue wheels. Many dialogues won't bend the course of the plot but allow for the expression of the character rather than creating a defined one via characterising auto-dialogue.

#177
Nerevar-as

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Auld Wulf wrote...

@OP

Maybe it did. But it also made it something much more long lasting and memorable. Most AAA games tend to have the plot I've described in my signature, and I'm sick and tired of that. It's not often that you come across a game which is almost on the level of a plot you'd expect to find in a decent book. Mass Effect did that, it completely side-stepped the drug of 'Player 1' that so many gamers seem to be addicted to at this point.

In many ways... Mass Effect 3 was a paradigm shift. It will be remembered.


Just not for the reasons you think it will.

OP: notME4 will tell.

#178
Dr_Extrem

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Auld Wulf wrote...

@OP

Maybe it did. But it also made it something much more long lasting and memorable. Most AAA games tend to have the plot I've described in my signature, and I'm sick and tired of that. It's not often that you come across a game which is almost on the level of a plot you'd expect to find in a decent book. Mass Effect did that, it completely side-stepped the drug of 'Player 1' that so many gamers seem to be addicted to at this point.

In many ways... Mass Effect 3 was a paradigm shift. It will be remembered.


it will be remenbered as the graveyard for good potential and the absurd use of stereotypes, tropes and schmaltz - not really a positive way.

#179
AlanC9

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Dr_Extrem wrote...

...and the absurd use of stereotypes, tropes and schmaltz .


Like every Bio game ever?

#180
Dr_Extrem

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AlanC9 wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

...and the absurd use of stereotypes, tropes and schmaltz .


Like every Bio game ever?



sure .. but in mass effect 3, its out of control.

#181
The Teyrn of Whatever

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Brovikk Rasputin wrote...

Of course not. Most people on here will pre-order the next ME game after a few trailers and screen shots. They just don't want to admit it yet.

Posted Image
This.

You speak great truth, oh wise one.

#182
The Teyrn of Whatever

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Here in a Kotaku article, Chris Priestly makes vague remarks about the future of the ME franchise (they might not even call the follow-up series Mass Effect at all).

Pure Speculation Mode Engaged:

If the series is set a significant amount of time in the future, perhaps centuries or even a thousand years or more after the ending of the ME Trilogy, the ending we chose might not be more significant than as a historical footnote. This would allow a new series to begin without needing much more than to pay lip service and perhaps some small, minor differences to exist which reflect Shepard's choice. An entry in the codices would summarize how history remembers the defeat of the Reapers and how the galaxy remembers the legendary Commander Shepard.

I just don't see the series being ruined FOREVER. It still has a lot of potential and I expect to thoroughly enjoy whatever comes next.

Modifié par The Teryn of Whatever, 18 février 2013 - 06:23 .


#183
Dr_Extrem

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The Teryn of Whatever wrote...

Here in a Kotaku article, Chris Priestly makes vague remarks about the future of the ME franchise (they might not even call the follow-up series Mass Effect at all).


that would be a wise decision.

#184
Nerevar-as

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The Teryn of Whatever wrote...

Brovikk Rasputin wrote...

Of course not. Most people on here will pre-order the next ME game after a few trailers and screen shots. They just don't want to admit it yet.

Posted Image
This.

You speak great truth, oh wise one.


Normally I´d agree, but in this case I´m not so sure.

And people still believe anything :devil: says?

#185
Cainhurst Crow

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Dr_Extrem wrote...

Auld Wulf wrote...

@OP

Maybe it did. But it also made it something much more long lasting and memorable. Most AAA games tend to have the plot I've described in my signature, and I'm sick and tired of that. It's not often that you come across a game which is almost on the level of a plot you'd expect to find in a decent book. Mass Effect did that, it completely side-stepped the drug of 'Player 1' that so many gamers seem to be addicted to at this point.

In many ways... Mass Effect 3 was a paradigm shift. It will be remembered.


it will be remenbered as the graveyard for good potential and the absurd use of stereotypes, tropes and schmaltz - not really a positive way.


Ah, the famed "It will never catch on" trope. Haven't seen that in a while.

#186
The Teyrn of Whatever

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Dr_Extrem wrote...

The Teryn of Whatever wrote...

Here in a Kotaku article, Chris Priestly makes vague remarks about the future of the ME franchise (they might not even call the follow-up series Mass Effect at all).


that would be a wise decision.


From a marketing stand-point, it seems like a strange decision. All of us BioWare geeks who follow the development of their games closely are going to know exactly what it is. Casual gamers aren't going to have the lure of brand-name recognition to reel them in. I get the impression that the people most butthurt by the endings were the hardcore fans. I don't think casuals cared quite as much.

It would be an interesting, possibly quite bold move to release a new game or series absent any mention of "Mass Effect" in the title, but clearly set in the same universe. Then again, it is kind of a strange name, as it does describe a technological innovation. It would be like calling a game set during the Second World War  "Diesel Power".

Whatever they end up calling it, I want more games set in the ME universe. There aren't nearly enough SF CRPGs out there and far too many (incredibly generic) heroic fantasy ones.

Modifié par The Teryn of Whatever, 18 février 2013 - 06:40 .


#187
Dr_Extrem

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The Teryn of Whatever wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

The Teryn of Whatever wrote...

Here in a Kotaku article, Chris Priestly makes vague remarks about the future of the ME franchise (they might not even call the follow-up series Mass Effect at all).


that would be a wise decision.


From a marketing stand-point, it seems like a strange decision. All of us BioWare geeks who follow the development of their games closely are going to know exactly what it is. Casual gamers aren't going to have the lure of brand-name recognition to reel them in. I get the impression that the people most butthurt by the endings were the hardcore fans. I don't think casuals cared quite as much.

It would be an interesting, possibly quite bold move to release a new game or series absent any mention of "Mass Effect" in the title, but clearly set in the same universe. Then again, it is kind of a strange name, as it does describe a technological innovation. It would be like calling a game set during the Second World War "Diesel Power".

Whatever they end up calling it, I want more games set in the ME universe. There aren't nearly enough SF CRPGs out there and far too many (incredibly generic) heroic fantasy ones.


the first thing a consumer thinks of when he/she reads "mass effect" is: the ending and how it was handled.

it is a sound strategy not to build a house on sand.

#188
Auld Wulf

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Darth Brotarian wrote...
Ah, the famed "It will never catch on" trope. Haven't seen that in a while.

Yep. Don't mind Extrem, though. He has quite the hate fetish for me. I'm actually quite flattered.

#189
PainCakesx

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Dr_Extrem wrote...

The Teryn of Whatever wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

The Teryn of Whatever wrote...

Here in a Kotaku article, Chris Priestly makes vague remarks about the future of the ME franchise (they might not even call the follow-up series Mass Effect at all).


that would be a wise decision.


From a marketing stand-point, it seems like a strange decision. All of us BioWare geeks who follow the development of their games closely are going to know exactly what it is. Casual gamers aren't going to have the lure of brand-name recognition to reel them in. I get the impression that the people most butthurt by the endings were the hardcore fans. I don't think casuals cared quite as much.

It would be an interesting, possibly quite bold move to release a new game or series absent any mention of "Mass Effect" in the title, but clearly set in the same universe. Then again, it is kind of a strange name, as it does describe a technological innovation. It would be like calling a game set during the Second World War "Diesel Power".

Whatever they end up calling it, I want more games set in the ME universe. There aren't nearly enough SF CRPGs out there and far too many (incredibly generic) heroic fantasy ones.


the first thing a consumer thinks of when he/she reads "mass effect" is: the ending and how it was handled.

it is a sound strategy not to build a house on sand.


While I firmly believe that a substantial majority disliked the endings, most aren't as invested in the franchise as most of us are. I'm sure that ME3's ending has left a sour taste in the mouthes of many/most, but enough to nullify the desire to purchase another ME game? That I doubt. Even I have some degree of anticipation for ME4, and I disliked the ending of ME3 as much as the next guy.

Not using ME in the title would be an unusual and very risky businss decision - when you've built up a large franchise, it tends not to be a good idea to not advertise it as such. 

#190
Auld Wulf

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Nerevar-as wrote...

Just not for the reasons you think it will.

Depends on quantities of ludditism and space magic, oooo~ in the mind of the viewer. Your mileage may vary. It'll just take some people time to catch up. This is the very meaning of 'ahead of its time.' You'll have those who'll enjoy something, then it'll take the rest a good ten years to actually realise why they were right.

So, yeah. For the reasons I think it will.

#191
GreyLycanTrope

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Darth Brotarian wrote...
Ah, the famed "It will never catch on" trope. Haven't seen that in a while.

Seeing as it forced Bioware to pour funds into a free DLC, I actually don't see a reason for it to catch on, little buisness incentive.

Modifié par Greylycantrope, 18 février 2013 - 06:45 .


#192
Cainhurst Crow

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There have been so far, what, 5 different big games with endings fans hated so far?

I think it is indeed catching on.

#193
2484Stryker

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Definitely not dead. Far from it. It still holds that special place in my heart even though I was supremely disappointed by the lackluster effort of the ending and overall lack of polish of ME3. But ME as a series is still great in my mind. It might have been even greater had BioWare not put in less than 100% effort into ME3, but that's in the past.

#194
GreyLycanTrope

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Darth Brotarian wrote...

There have been so far, what, 5 different big games with endings fans hated so far?

I think it is indeed catching on.

Hated for different reasons though, they all tried different things. Will developers try to do different things in the future in terms of writing? Sure that's been the case for years. Will ME3 usher in a new trend and be held as a pioneer example of how to approach writing? Maybe as a what not to do guide.

#195
The Teyrn of Whatever

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Auld Wulf wrote...

 Player 1 kills off The Faceless Evil Space Empire and saves the galaxy!
Player 1 is celebrated! Player 1 marries the Galactic Princess! Player 1
becomes rich, gets a nice car, has a bunch of space babies, and engages
in similarly mundane, base desires! - The ending that most people want.
One that was suitable for arcades from 20 or so years ago. I'm ...
confused. I'd prefer an intellectual, philosophical, emotionally charged
plot.


ROFL.

That's quite amusing. That sounds like something you'd get in a Ron Gilbert or Tim Schafer parody of space opera adventures. I can picture player 1 as a overly muscular, barrel-chested, blond, big-chinned idiot hero with a tooth that "blings" when he smiles and a voice like DeathSpank or The Tick. :D

Actually come to think of it, I wouldn't mind BioWare venturing outside of their comfort zone at some point and giving us an IP, either a one-off or a series, that isn't serious at its core, but that embraces silliness and is basically a satire of the types of games they usually make while also gently (or not so gently) poking fun at fandom in general and the BSN in particular (screw us if we can't take a joke; oh wait some of us really can't).

#196
Guest_The Mad Hanar_*

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Mdoggy1214 wrote...

( ...But if you asked me what's more important, how much money a franchise makes or how good it is, i would tell you the quality is more important. And Mass Effect definitely is having an issue of quality with a lot of people.)

 



And that is why you are not the one selling these games and making the decisions about them. I'm not trying to be mean or condenscending, but that's the truth. Of course as the consumer you feel the quality is more important than the money made. That is not what matters to EA or Bioware, however.

Despite the endings, Mass Effect 3 sold 4.48 million copies worldwide across all platforms. Mass Effect 2 sold 4.49 million copies. That means that despite all the controversy surrounding this game, despite fans saying that the quality of the games went down, the same amount of money is made.

Still don't think this is relevant? Call of Duty, a series that is constantly ripped on even by it's fans, sold 11.50 million copies, just on the Xbox 360 alone. Year in and year out people complain about the lack of innovation this series displays and yet they still buy it year in and year out.

As for the quality of the games being an issue to a lot of people, the Child's Play donation pool done by Retake a year ago made about $80,000. That translates to about 1,333 sales, if your base price is $60. One of the original polls about the ending had 68,177 people saying that they completely disliked the original ending to Mass Effect 3, that is 1.5% of the total sales of the game. That's a 1.5% loss in sales, assuming that those who were unsatisfied really wouldn't buy another Mass Effect game. In the grand scheme of things, that is not a lot.

This series still has a great earning potential. I don't see it going anywhere any time soon.

#197
Cainhurst Crow

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Greylycantrope wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

There have been so far, what, 5 different big games with endings fans hated so far?

I think it is indeed catching on.

Hated for different reasons though, they all tried different things. Will developers try to do different things in the future in terms of writing? Sure that's been the case for years. Will ME3 usher in a new trend and be held as a pioneer example of how to approach writing? Maybe as a what not to do guide.


I think it's a precursor to games trying to buck the trend of the traditional video game ending, which the fans will hate becasue it alters the formula. This will lead to a decline until someone does a neo-classical game in which all innovative ideas are scalled back to 2009 levels, and will make video games popular again.

These sort of ebs and flows tend to happen over the span of a few decades.

#198
GreyLycanTrope

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It's not bucking any trends though, the Deus Ex comparison is not made lightly. We've litarelly seen this sort three option set up before.

The Walking Dead bucks the traitional storyline, yet it doesn't suffer from the same backlash ME3 did. There's a certainly level of comeptance attached to execution of either game's finale and ME3 falls woesfully short as a formula to be emulated by others.

Modifié par Greylycantrope, 18 février 2013 - 07:30 .


#199
Tron Mega

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Brovikk Rasputin wrote...

Of course not. Most people on here will pre-order the next ME game after a few trailers and screen shots. They just don't want to admit it yet.


Your more delusional then dreman9999. 

Congrats. 

#200
Atekimagus

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The Mad Hanar wrote...

Mdoggy1214 wrote...

( ...But if you asked me what's more important, how much money a franchise makes or how good it is, i would tell you the quality is more important. And Mass Effect definitely is having an issue of quality with a lot of people.)

 



And that is why you are not the one selling these games and making the decisions about them. I'm not trying to be mean or condenscending, but that's the truth. Of course as the consumer you feel the quality is more important than the money made. That is not what matters to EA or Bioware, however.

Despite the endings, Mass Effect 3 sold 4.48 million copies worldwide across all platforms. Mass Effect 2 sold 4.49 million copies. That means that despite all the controversy surrounding this game, despite fans saying that the quality of the games went down, the same amount of money is made.

Still don't think this is relevant? Call of Duty, a series that is constantly ripped on even by it's fans, sold 11.50 million copies, just on the Xbox 360 alone. Year in and year out people complain about the lack of innovation this series displays and yet they still buy it year in and year out.

As for the quality of the games being an issue to a lot of people, the Child's Play donation pool done by Retake a year ago made about $80,000. That translates to about 1,333 sales, if your base price is $60. One of the original polls about the ending had 68,177 people saying that they completely disliked the original ending to Mass Effect 3, that is 1.5% of the total sales of the game. That's a 1.5% loss in sales, assuming that those who were unsatisfied really wouldn't buy another Mass Effect game. In the grand scheme of things, that is not a lot.

This series still has a great earning potential. I don't see it going anywhere any time soon.


Just a few things though.

1. The sales for ME2 and ME3 are almost identical. Now that is no surprise and makes sense, if you played ME2 you probably want to know how it continues, so this can be expected. Even if you read that the ending isn't great you probably would have bought ME3 anyhow to judge for yourself. Since noone was even remotely pissed at the ending of ME2 this is not an indicator as to how well a ME4 would do.

2. Just using the total amount of people voting in the poll and comparing it to total sales doesn'T work, since only a small percentage votes in the first place. Almost 70k people seems significant to me. So to get an indicator you must compare it to how many people voted, not bought it. For example (I don't have the numbers) if 80k people participated in the poll, and 70k were pissed at the endings.......that would have me worried if I plan to sell a ME4 in the near future.


My point is, as long as you are not a huge disappointment customers tend to be very loyal to products they know and like, even if there is sometimes a weaker installment, see your call of duty example. Yeah, it lacks innovation.....but still....people like it, people know it, people buy it.

However, if you are burned badly once, and let us not pretend that didn't happen here, customers are very unforgiving and it is almost impossible to win him/her back again. It takes years to build levels of trust and loyalty....it takes only one misstep to loose all that, and imho that happened here.


So, a far better indicator would probably be ME3 DLC sales compared to ME2 DLC sales (and those might still be off, considering how many are probably buy DLCs just in hopes the story will make more sense).

Modifié par Atekimagus, 18 février 2013 - 07:31 .