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The Mass Effect trilogy and the descent from science into mysticism


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#301
fainmaca

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Ieldra2 wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...
I don't really have a problem with the Lazarus Project. I can buy a magical element that grants FTL travel, teleportation, and the ability to blast energy waves from your body, but I can't buy the regeneration of dead cells given massive resources?

Lazarus on its own was just too unexplained. It's suggestive but not really a problem. It becomes problematic retroactively with Miranda's explanation of things in ME3.


Personally, I think that Lazarus can be acceptable in a hard sci-fi setting, if you are prepared to accept that there is no such thing as a soul in the setting (real life beliefs are totally separate from this). In this case, a body could be looked at as nothing more than a complex machine. A dead one simply needs repairing and reactivation. If one believes that who we are is part of our physical structure (layout of neurons and so on), then the plot point of the project should be fairly straightforward.

Its only when the player decides to accept a level of mysticism in the setting that the Lazarus project encounters problems, as it raises the question of how the 'soul' was brought back into the body.

The only part where the LP runs into problems for me, personally, is the fact that BW had Shepard crash into the planet. Maybe the suit protected him, but I found it a lot easier to accept that his brain was frozen as he drifted in space, thereby protecting the tissue to allow regeneration. The idea that Redeption made canon of his body enduring both atmospheric re-entry and planetary impact strains my suspenders of disbelief a little too much.

#302
fainmaca

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Before my counter to your views on the LP is read into too much by the denizens of this forum, Ieldra2, I just want to point out that I think your analysis of the situation is very well thought out and I agree with many of the points within. I agree that ME lost too much of its technicality in favour of.... I guess the best way to describe it would indeed be mysticism. I do however feel that the plot of ME2 was only a slight slide in that direction, and many of the points that could have been interpreted that way possibly originally had a more technical intent behind them. ME3, on the other hand, was a downright plummet off the precipice you describe.

#303
Sejborg

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Dr_Extrem wrote...

David7204 wrote...

I think Shepard's death and revival was one of the best parts of the series, both in concept and execution.


not really imo ... it was a ****** poor tool to get shepard 2 years into the future and tp provide a reason to work for cerberus.

that could have been done far better without killing shep.


like this i.e. ... after the battle of the citadel, shep got annoying and the council and the alliance fired shep. shepard gets depressed, drinks a lot and works as a merc for shady people .. suddenly, the collectors appear and cerberus drags shep out of the gutter.

not very creative but  easier to believe than project lazarus ..


Pretty terrible suggestion. The beginning of Mass Effect 2 gives you a) the hook that catches the audience/players - an epic opening where the hero dies, and is then brought back to life (holy moly!) and B) establishes Shepard as the Messias character that he/she needs to be to fulfil the rest of the franchises themes and the ending of the trilogy. 

#304
Auld Wulf

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@MB957

Yes, but you possess an exceedingly rare quality. One known as "creativity." It's hard to be a dreamer or a romantic if you don't have any creativity whatsoever. Why do you think people like hard-sci, modern day settings, or near future ones? It's because it's what they can relate to, their imagination doesn't actually go any further than that. Anything slightly outside of that just puts them outside of their comfort zone. Push that barrier a little more, and you have people screaming about space magic.

What's really sad about this though is that any good scientist knows that science is 99% theory and imagination, you're tossing around imaginary numbers all the time. It's amazing sometimes that people don't realise why peer review is necessary; it's because science involves such large quantities of imagination. If you can't imagine, then you're not a good scientist. So the funny thing is is that a proper scientist would be more at home with ME3 than those who aren't.

I have a smart engineer friend who spends most of his time working on classified stuff, and he had no problems with ME3 at all. His favourite ending? Control or Synthesis, he sees Destroy as a waste, and just shakes his head at the ridiculousness of 'space magic.' I think the more accustomed you are to creative thinking, the less prone you are to luddite thinking. And not in absolutes, but on a sliding scale. The more you slip down into ludditism, the less creative and more conservative you become at the same time.

The issue I have is that people use magic and mysticism as a negative connotation, essentially trying to pull a Harry Potter on it. You know, the usual 'magic is bad' line of **** and bull. Somehow pretending that science doesn't have any creative thinking to it. That's why I tend to shy away from it. I still call it science, but I call it science fiction. It's creatively taking what could be a potential, and turning it into a reality within the scope of a story. What could potentially exist? Well, the mileage may vary depending on the imagination of the person viewing.

But the way I look at it is this: If there was no romanticism, no fiction, and no creativity in science, then we'd never have gotten anywhere. We'd be stagnant. Most scientific discovery is serendipity based upon someone being a little crazy and cooking up cockamamie ideas to submit for peer review. And many of those turn out to be true. Not all of them, but most of them. I just see people who embrace that lack of creativity as being behind the times, because science is progressing faster now than ever, and that's due to the open-mindedness involved.

Arthur C. Clarke said "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

Barry Gehm said "Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced."

Mark Stanley said "Any technology, no matter how primitive, is magic to those who don't understand it."

From a human psyche point of view, it's worth actually letting those sink in for a while, and realising the truth in them. Since "magic" and "science" can essentially be the same thing, but "magic" carries negative connotations, and people point, scream and use the "magic" label against forms of science that they dislike. That's the sad part; in this context, both "magic" and "mysticism" have essentially come to mean "science that I don't like, for whatever ridiculous reason."

So what the OP has essentially written there, disguised by the tag of "mysticism," is really "ME3's descent into fantastical science-fiction, which I strongly dislike."

What the OP is actually saying is that the science-fiction of ME3 became more symbolic, romantic, and fantastic, and something designed more to inspire imagination and creative thought. And the OP doesn't like that, because the OP doesn't like being challenged in that way. So thus the more fantastic science-fiction becomes "magic" because science-fiction that challenges them too much is bad.

From an anthropological standpoint, this is interesting. You essentially have people demonising science-fiction which is simply too fantastic for them to accept as a possibility. This is borne of a lack of creative thinking - the sliding scale of creativity and ludditism. I don't think you can truly be free of one or the other, we're talking about human nature here, after all. So the breaking point for people is different, and that's actually fascinating.

You have people who think that the Lazarus project amounts to being too impossible when, actually, the Lazarus project is damned close to hard sci-fi. It's something we could almost do today. And in 200 years, after all those developments, and the resources of The Illusive Man? Easy! But see, this is where the sliding scale comes into play, those people are nearer the extremes. And then you have those for whom the reapers themselves, or the Catalyst and Synthesis represent something which is impossible to believe/accept.

Going by the ludditism/creativity sliding scale, each person has a breaking point.

I once read a very interesting statement that went something like this: "To some people - anything that existed before they were born is the natural way of things, any new ideas introduced to them within their teenage years are new and interesting, and new ideas introduced to them at middle age are abhorrent and go against nature."

That's a very interesting statement. The fact of the matter is that due to the sliding scale, there will be people who're more or less prone to this, who'll just get to a point where they're physically unable to accept new ideas. But the interesting point here is, of course, at some point in the future what we see as transhumanism is going to be the norm. For those born then, that will be the natural order of things. What people are railing against now as impossible is an inevitability that they are incapable of accepting.

You have a sliding scale of variance regarding those who can and can't accept new things past a certain age. Some might get to a point where new ideas are just 'abhorrent' to them. I have to admit that 'abhorrent' is an idea I see thrown around a lot. And it makes me wonder whether they see increases in the field of medicine as 'abhorrent' too, simply because they weren't available within their period of formation, their teenage years. So, would being able to replace the eyes of a blind person, or the spine of a paralysed person be 'abhorrent?'

Would that 'go against nature?'

And that's what I see a lot of, really. Some people just... hate some scientific inevitabilities. So they call them magic, they call them abominations, they call them abhorrent, and they live in denial of their inevitability. And they're never able to admit their own limitations in that regard, it's never that their thinking is just behind the times, or that someone else is more progressive than them. It's always 'magic,' or 'abhorrent,' or 'abomination.'

Yet there are never any well reasoned responses to this, really. Ultimately, this all boils down to technophobia on some level. And they think that just because they use a computer that they're immune to technophobia. But they're not, it's a sliding scale. Give us 50 years and we'll probably have people buying eye upgrades just as a thing you do if you have the money for it, and that'll likely be seen as abhorrent, too. "What's wrong with the eyes you were born with?"

So, yeah.

Ultimately, the whole thing about decrying fantastic science-fiction as magic in a negative way is just really bloody silly. It's just a path to self-stagnation, to getting stuck in a rut, and frozen in time.

Edit: I have to say, though. Being fortunate as I am to know some truly intelligent people, this is why I've ended up with the mindset I have. I suppose from a sociological standpoint, part of how open-minded you are depends upon the company you keep. And if you have friends who're obsessed with science, even fringe science, then that's going to make you very open-minded. I love the conversations my friends have about some of the more weird things that tend to come up, especially the 'what ifs.' When you listen to scientifically inclined people go off on crazy what ifs, Mass Effect 3 is really not that far-fetched at all. At all.

Modifié par Auld Wulf, 19 février 2013 - 02:50 .


#305
Dr_Extrem

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EnvyTB075 wrote...

Addictress wrote...

And Star Trek teleportation is far more solid.


Yes, because it is technically possible, even if we've only achieved it at a super small scale


duplicating a quantum state is not really comparable to duplicating matter ...

photons dont have mass

#306
Auld Wulf

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@Dr_Extrem

Ahhh, but there are people working on it. Creatively minded people. And eventually, what's an impossible fiction for you will be the reality of tomorrow. That's the way of things.

#307
Dr_Extrem

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Sejborg wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

David7204 wrote...

I think Shepard's death and revival was one of the best parts of the series, both in concept and execution.


not really imo ... it was a ****** poor tool to get shepard 2 years into the future and tp provide a reason to work for cerberus.

that could have been done far better without killing shep.


like this i.e. ... after the battle of the citadel, shep got annoying and the council and the alliance fired shep. shepard gets depressed, drinks a lot and works as a merc for shady people .. suddenly, the collectors appear and cerberus drags shep out of the gutter.

not very creative but  easier to believe than project lazarus ..


Pretty terrible suggestion. The beginning of Mass Effect 2 gives you a) the hook that catches the audience/players - an epic opening where the hero dies, and is then brought back to life (holy moly!) and B) establishes Shepard as the Messias character that he/she needs to be to fulfil the rest of the franchises themes and the ending of the trilogy. 



oh ... noez .. shepard is not a human? ...



if i want to something about a messia, i go to the chruch ... they are the pros on this matter.


the hero can die at the end of a story .. not at the beginning .. its bad style and the effect looses its impact, if it happens again.

#308
ruggly

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Dr_Extrem wrote...

EnvyTB075 wrote...

Addictress wrote...

And Star Trek teleportation is far more solid.


Yes, because it is technically possible, even if we've only achieved it at a super small scale


duplicating a quantum state is not really comparable to duplicating matter ...

photons dont have mass


First things first. Hoverboards.

#309
Indy_S

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Oh hey Wulfie, I was wondering when you'd show up. Let's see... creativity... appeal to authority... ignoring the rules of the setting in favour of the possibilities of the genre... technology is magic... false assumptions about the OP... there's ludditism in there, oh good... an actually interesting statement used to support ludditism, oh dear... dismissing all arguments of a contrary point-of-view... and missing the point. Well done Wulfie, nice return to form.

#310
Dr_Extrem

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Auld Wulf wrote...

@Dr_Extrem

Ahhh, but there are people working on it. Creatively minded people. And eventually, what's an impossible fiction for you will be the reality of tomorrow. That's the way of things.


this has nothing to do with creativity ...


the laws of nature do not bend around creativity ... at least not in the real world.


prof. lesch made a rough calculation on the matter - it is not possible.

#311
Dr_Extrem

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ruggly wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

EnvyTB075 wrote...

Addictress wrote...

And Star Trek teleportation is far more solid.


Yes, because it is technically possible, even if we've only achieved it at a super small scale


duplicating a quantum state is not really comparable to duplicating matter ...

photons dont have mass


First things first. Hoverboards.


we are working on it ...

#312
Sejborg

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Dr_Extrem wrote...

Sejborg wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

David7204 wrote...

I think Shepard's death and revival was one of the best parts of the series, both in concept and execution.


not really imo ... it was a ****** poor tool to get shepard 2 years into the future and tp provide a reason to work for cerberus.

that could have been done far better without killing shep.


like this i.e. ... after the battle of the citadel, shep got annoying and the council and the alliance fired shep. shepard gets depressed, drinks a lot and works as a merc for shady people .. suddenly, the collectors appear and cerberus drags shep out of the gutter.

not very creative but  easier to believe than project lazarus ..


Pretty terrible suggestion. The beginning of Mass Effect 2 gives you a) the hook that catches the audience/players - an epic opening where the hero dies, and is then brought back to life (holy moly!) and B) establishes Shepard as the Messias character that he/she needs to be to fulfil the rest of the franchises themes and the ending of the trilogy. 



oh ... noez .. shepard is not a human? ...



if i want to something about a messia, i go to the chruch ... they are the pros on this matter.


the hero can die at the end of a story .. not at the beginning .. its bad style and the effect looses its impact, if it happens again.


Why do you ask the first question?

The rest of your points are also weird. Can you rephrase?

Modifié par Sejborg, 19 février 2013 - 03:01 .


#313
ruggly

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Dr_Extrem wrote...

ruggly wrote...

First things first. Hoverboards.


we are working on it ...


Let me know when you finish it, I'm tired of paying for premium gas.

#314
Indy_S

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Sejborg wrote...

Why do you ask the first question?

The rest of the your points are also weird. Can you rephrase?


I believe he wants to express that he did not appreciate the Messiah allegory present within the narrative. I'm a tad curious about the first question but I think it's about Shepard's zombie nature.

#315
Dr_Extrem

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Sejborg wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

Sejborg wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

David7204 wrote...

I think Shepard's death and revival was one of the best parts of the series, both in concept and execution.


not really imo ... it was a ****** poor tool to get shepard 2 years into the future and tp provide a reason to work for cerberus.

that could have been done far better without killing shep.


like this i.e. ... after the battle of the citadel, shep got annoying and the council and the alliance fired shep. shepard gets depressed, drinks a lot and works as a merc for shady people .. suddenly, the collectors appear and cerberus drags shep out of the gutter.

not very creative but  easier to believe than project lazarus ..


Pretty terrible suggestion. The beginning of Mass Effect 2 gives you a) the hook that catches the audience/players - an epic opening where the hero dies, and is then brought back to life (holy moly!) and B) establishes Shepard as the Messias character that he/she needs to be to fulfil the rest of the franchises themes and the ending of the trilogy. 



oh ... noez .. shepard is not a human? ...



if i want to something about a messia, i go to the chruch ... they are the pros on this matter.


the hero can die at the end of a story .. not at the beginning .. its bad style and the effect looses its impact, if it happens again.


Why do you ask the first question?

The rest of your points are also weird. Can you rephrase?


rhetorical questions are not your strong side ...

shepard is not a messia ... implecating this IS a descent into mysticism.

#316
Sejborg

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Dr_Extrem wrote...
rhetorical questions are not your strong side ...

shepard is not a messia ... implecating this IS a descent into mysticism.


LOL. 

Not a descent since mysticism was established in the first game. It is rather a continuation of the mysticism. :innocent:

#317
Ieldra

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fainmaca wrote...
Before my counter to your views on the LP is read into too much by the denizens of this forum, Ieldra2, I just want to point out that I think your analysis of the situation is very well thought out and I agree with many of the points within. I agree that ME lost too much of its technicality in favour of.... I guess the best way to describe it would indeed be mysticism. I do however feel that the plot of ME2 was only a slight slide in that direction, and many of the points that could have been interpreted that way possibly originally had a more technical intent behind them. ME3, on the other hand, was a downright plummet off the precipice you describe.

Oh, I agree. ME2 has taken baby steps in that direction. I've called it "comic book science", and that only in the part with the human Reaper. The LP isn't really a big problem on its own, but only becomes attached to the more general one retroactively.

So I won't defend my points on the Lazarus Project with a lot of dedication. As I said in the OP, it's a first step, and it wouldn't be meaningful if ME3 didn't follow up with taking the plunge.  

#318
chemiclord

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Auld Wulf wrote...

@MB957

Yes, but you possess an exceedingly rare quality. One known as "creativity." It's hard to be a dreamer or a romantic if you don't have any creativity whatsoever. Why do you think people like hard-sci, modern day settings, or near future ones? It's because it's what they can relate to, their imagination doesn't actually go any further than that. Anything slightly outside of that just puts them outside of their comfort zone. Push that barrier a little more, and you have people screaming about space magic... *SNIP*


I do believe you underestimate the creative thinking of the OP and others who reject the "space magic."

It's not that, for example, the concept of Synthesis just isn't understood... it's that it rejects any attempts for it to make ANY sense within the setting created.  What is even the THEORY behind a wave of energy turning organic matter into synthetic?  The suspension of disbelief stretches farther for some people than others... but this simply goes beyond what a lot of people can absorb without going, "WTF?"

Control suffers not a science problem, but a logical narrative one.  We spend 30+ hours watching Shepard outright reject the Illusive Man's insistence that the Reapers can be controlled... then in those last fifteen minutes we're told, oh yeah, it actually IS a legitimate option and you can totally take it.

Even worse, when pressed with why it suddenly IS a valid option despite the narrative rejecting it the entire time, the Catalyst offers what amounts to "because you're you."  Oooooookay.

Destroy suffers a logical inconsistency.  If Destroy obliterates all synthetic life... why doesn't Control give you CONTROL of all synthetic life?  And how does it target "just" Reaper sentience?  No attempt to give it ANY context is provided.  

Yes, fans can certainly make up a reason for any given option that fits their "headcanon"... but frankly that's NOT their role.

Yes, "space magic" is used far too often and haphazardly as a buzzword to sum up what is wrong with any given option.  But that misuse doesn't mean the criticism isn't valid.

The ending "options" provided don't grow organically from the narrative.  They feel like someone from Bioware thought, "Okay... that's cool, let's do it" but didn't actually attempt to make them fit the narrative, then tried to "balance" the options against each other.  The ending feels like a game mechanic, not a story element.  And that's hard to accept.

Modifié par chemiclord, 19 février 2013 - 03:11 .


#319
Indy_S

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Sejborg wrote...
Not a descent since mysticism was established in the first game. It is rather a continuation of the mysticism. :innocent:


This mysticism in the first game, are you talking about the eternal god machines?

#320
mvaning

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Addictress wrote...

And Star Trek teleportation is far more solid.



I'm not sure what point your trying to make here.    Are you inferring that I have anywhere stated that elements of Star Trek are more or less plausible than elements of Mass Effect?    I have not so your rheteoric falls on pointless goals.

#321
Indy_S

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chemiclord wrote...
*snip*


Arguments with the Wulf get you nowhere. Many have tried. The beast will not stay down.

#322
CronoDragoon

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Ieldra2 wrote...

BTW, I do like Lazarus as a plot element, and I treat it as a technological achievement. It's certainly not the element most pertinent to this topic. It was, however, badly executed, as outlined by Indy_S above.


Well, I would argue that, as a plot element, it is actually well executed insofar as it is a tool for Shepard to be separated from the Normandy, for the reintroduction of a squad, for separation from the Alliance, etc.

I would see Lazarus being more problematic for me if it remained totally unexplained while still being a central part of the story. But it's pretty obviously a plot device in order to set up ME2's plot, and in that respect I think it succeeded.

In other words, one important distinction between Lazarus and, say, Synthesis or Reaperization is that the latter two are key components of the story, insofar as they represent respectively the resolution of the conflict and the MO of the villain, which ties to the motivation of the villain. In these cases I think it's not really acceptable to leave things completely unexplained.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 19 février 2013 - 03:21 .


#323
Dr_Extrem

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Sejborg wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...
rhetorical questions are not your strong side ...

shepard is not a messia ... implecating this IS a descent into mysticism.


LOL. 

Not a descent since mysticism was established in the first game. It is rather a continuation of the mysticism. :innocent:


what mysticism? ..

the reapers are not a myth - they are the cold, deadly truth, the council dismissed as a myth. 


the altered laws of nature are a part of the meu - like the force is a part of star wars and transportation is  one of star trek.

#324
Sejborg

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Indy_S wrote...

Sejborg wrote...
Not a descent since mysticism was established in the first game. It is rather a continuation of the mysticism. :innocent:


This mysticism in the first game, are you talking about the eternal god machines?

It have been established I am not good with rhetorical questions, but I will go ahead and say yes anyways. 

#325
Sejborg

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Dr_Extrem wrote...

Sejborg wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...
rhetorical questions are not your strong side ...

shepard is not a messia ... implecating this IS a descent into mysticism.


LOL. 

Not a descent since mysticism was established in the first game. It is rather a continuation of the mysticism. :innocent:


what mysticism? ..

the reapers are not a myth - they are the cold, deadly truth, the council dismissed as a myth. 


the altered laws of nature are a part of the meu - like the force is a part of star wars and transportation is  one of star trek.

The f***? Why don't that same logic fit into the project Lazarus situation then? It's part of the MEU.

I also fear that you have a narrow view and understanding of stories, since you seem to only be able to understand stories at face value - incapable of picking up any deeper meaning.  

Modifié par Sejborg, 19 février 2013 - 03:20 .