706 réponses à ce sujet

[CronoDragoon]

Dr_Extrem wrote...

because dead brains are still dead in the meu. exept shepads off course.

Where does it say that it's scientifically impossible to bring someone back to life? Or that dead brains can never be regenerated?

[mvaning]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

because dead brains are still dead in the meu. exept shepads off course.

Where does it say that it's scientifically impossible to bring someone back to life? Or that dead brains can never be regenerated?

http://www.health.ny...brain_death.pdf


Here is a starting point.

[CronoDragoon]

mvaning wrote...
http://www.health.ny...brain_death.pdf


Here is a starting point.

We're clearly talking about Mass Effect lore, here. There is no Mass Effect lore that contradicts LP. Obviously there is real science in the real world that would contradict it, but then if we accept eezo as "part of ME lore" then we aren't talking about real science, right?

[Dr_Extrem]

CronoDragoon wrote...

mvaning wrote...
http://www.health.ny...brain_death.pdf


Here is a starting point.

We're clearly talking about Mass Effect lore, here. There is no Mass Effect lore that contradicts LP. Obviously there is real science in the real world that would contradict it, but then if we accept eezo as "part of ME lore" then we aren't talking about real science, right?

there is no mass effect lore, that supports it either.

humans are still human. this part of the meu is comparable to our rl-laws.

[Ieldra]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

because dead brains are still dead in the meu. exept shepads off course.

Where does it say that it's scientifically impossible to bring someone back to life? Or that dead brains can never be regenerated?

There is chemical deteroriation. You can theoretically rebuild the brain, but with every second that passes after brain death, information stored in it will be progressively lost. To reconstruct the person, this information has to come from somewhere.

The important question the LP left unanswered is: where did it come from in Shepard's case? Possibilities:
(1) Assume holographic memory. To a certain extent, storage is redundant. Varying aspects of any piece of information can be restored from any one part.
(2) Shepard's brain was flash-frozen, avoiding deterioration.
(3) Shepard carried a greybox without knowing it. Information can be recovered from there.

However, these are all ad-hoc rationalizations. There is nothing in the lore supporting any of these assumptions. Now reconsider the Lazarus project in the light of Legion's and Shepard's sacrifice, and you'll see how this - by accident or intention, I don't put anything past Mac Walters and Casey Hudson these days - retroactively redefines the universe in mystical terms.

If this redefinition was not intended, then it's excessively bad writing and worldbuilding. If it was intended, it's telling you that the story plays, and has always played, in a universe where an extradimensional aspect of a person - you may as well call it a soul - is an observable reality. I don't know which possibility is worse. 

Modifié par Ieldra2, 19 février 2013 - 04:45 .

[CronoDragoon]

Dr_Extrem wrote...

there is no mass effect lore, that supports it either.

That's not what you said. You said the LP either ignores or contradicts existing ME lore. It does not. I already acknowledged that no Mass Effect lore supports it in my previous post about the LP being unforeshadowed.

[Dr_Extrem]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

there is no mass effect lore, that supports it either.

That's not what you said. You said the LP either ignores or contradicts existing ME lore. It does not. I already acknowledged that no Mass Effect lore supports it in my previous post about the LP being unforeshadowed.

the second half of my post (the one you did not quote) answers your question .. not convenient enough?

if you go on like this, our exchange is over.

[mvaning]

Dr_Extrem wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

mvaning wrote...
http://www.health.ny...brain_death.pdf


Here is a starting point.

We're clearly talking about Mass Effect lore, here. There is no Mass Effect lore that contradicts LP. Obviously there is real science in the real world that would contradict it, but then if we accept eezo as "part of ME lore" then we aren't talking about real science, right?

there is no mass effect lore, that supports it either.

humans are still human. this part of the meu is comparable to our rl-laws.

Within the MEU, of course it is possible.   We view the MEU from real life, not from the MEU.  So as a person in real life viewing the topic of  'scientific rebirth', I can easily see an ode to mysticism.     As a side note, I also enjoyed that part of ME2.   

[CronoDragoon]

Dr_Extrem wrote...
humans are still human. this part of the meu is comparable to our rl-laws.

Oh, okay, so we are basically just picking and choosing what is comparable to RL laws and what isn't.

It sounds to me like the LP's only problem is that it wasn't explicitly foreshadowed. If it was, you'd have no complaint.

[Dr_Extrem]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...
humans are still human. this part of the meu is comparable to our rl-laws.

Oh, okay, so we are basically just picking and choosing what is comparable to RL laws and what isn't.

It sounds to me like the LP's only problem is that it wasn't explicitly foreshadowed. If it was, you'd have no complaint.

in fact yes. the meu uses our rl-rules of nature and´only adjusts some parts of it. like eezo and its effect on mass.

gravity and centrifugal force still work as usual and light as well .. hell they even made a codex entry on ftl and explained the doppler effect. there were no alterations to the human biology made - thus, they are still comparable to our rl-laws.

(the retroviral treatment procedures follow our rl-rules of biology as well)

Modifié par Dr_Extrem, 19 février 2013 - 04:48 .

[humes spork]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Invoking a theme badly: Legion's death. The necessity of Legion's death is just stated without giving a reason, against the very plausible objection that it shouldn't be necessary according to established in-world logic. Thus, the impression is given that sacrifice has an ontological meaning, that it changes the world because it is the giving of a life. It is suggested that the psychological effect the sacrifice has on us who read it exists in-world as a physical reality.

Okay, I have to say something about this. You're anthropomorphizing Legion, and treating its "death" as literal when it ought to not be. Literally, the 1,183 runtimes in the platform disseminate into the Consensus to execute the update. The platform shuts down. No more, no less. No entity that can be spoken of in literal terms ceases to exist; no entity that can be spoken of in literal terms ever really existed in the first place, if you want to go to the mats about it.

[AlanC9]

fainmaca wrote...


Would the phrasing 'from science to rampant mysticism' sit better?

I think it would describe the issue better. The problem is not mysticism per se, it's mysticism infecting major plot points.

[CronoDragoon]

Dr_Extrem wrote...

in fact yes. the meu uses our rl-rules of nature and´only adjusts some parts of it. like eezo and its effect on mass.

gravity and centrifugal force still work as usual and light as well .. hell they even made a codex entry on ftl and explained the doppler effect. there were no alterations to the human biology made - thus, they are still comparable to our rl-laws.

(the retroviral treatment procedures follow our rl-rules of biology as well)

CronoDragoon wrote...

It sounds to me like the LP's only problem is that it wasn't explicitly foreshadowed. If it was, you'd have no complaint.

Looks like we're done here? LP isn't supported or contradicted by explicit ME lore. It's unforeshadowed and that leads to a believability problem.

[Sejborg]

Ieldra2 wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

because dead brains are still dead in the meu. exept shepads off course.

Where does it say that it's scientifically impossible to bring someone back to life? Or that dead brains can never be regenerated?

There is chemical deteroriation. You can theoretically rebuild the brain, but with every second that passes after brain death, information stored in it will be progressively lost. To reconstruct the person, this information has to come from somewhere.

Yep. And that "somewhere" is also a part of the Lazarus project. That is why Jakob and Miranda is asking what Shepard is remembering and what not. For instance - when Jakob says in the beginning that he works for Cerberus Shepard can answer - what is Cerberus? And Jakob will answer something along the lines of: "yeah. They warned us that you might not remember everything".

[Iakus]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...
humans are still human. this part of the meu is comparable to our rl-laws.

Oh, okay, so we are basically just picking and choosing what is comparable to RL laws and what isn't.

It sounds to me like the LP's only problem is that it wasn't explicitly foreshadowed. If it was, you'd have no complaint.

If it was explicitly forshadowed, it would be part of ME lore.

As it is, without it we have nothing to go on beyond what is known about human psysiology.

You can't just say "it's science fiction, so anything and everything is on the table"

[Dr_Extrem]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

in fact yes. the meu uses our rl-rules of nature and´only adjusts some parts of it. like eezo and its effect on mass.

gravity and centrifugal force still work as usual and light as well .. hell they even made a codex entry on ftl and explained the doppler effect. there were no alterations to the human biology made - thus, they are still comparable to our rl-laws.

(the retroviral treatment procedures follow our rl-rules of biology as well)

CronoDragoon wrote...

It sounds to me like the LP's only problem is that it wasn't explicitly foreshadowed. If it was, you'd have no complaint.

Looks like we're done here? LP isn't supported or contradicted by explicit ME lore. It's unforeshadowed and that leads to a believability problem.

yes .. like i said .. i can believe it, because miranda makes it at least a bit believable. sadly, it is the beginning of the descent.

[CronoDragoon]

iakus wrote...

If it was explicitly forshadowed, it would be part of ME lore.

As it is, without it we have nothing to go on beyond what is known about human psysiology.

You can't just say "it's science fiction, so anything and everything is on the table"

That is exactly my point. I am arguing against the notion that it goes against ME lore, not that real life science supports it.

[Dr_Extrem]

Sejborg wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

because dead brains are still dead in the meu. exept shepads off course.

Where does it say that it's scientifically impossible to bring someone back to life? Or that dead brains can never be regenerated?

There is chemical deteroriation. You can theoretically rebuild the brain, but with every second that passes after brain death, information stored in it will be progressively lost. To reconstruct the person, this information has to come from somewhere.

Yep. And that "somewhere" is also a part of the Lazarus project. That is why Jakob and Miranda is asking what Shepard is remembering and what not. For instance - when Jakob says in the beginning that he works for Cerberus Shepard can answer - what is Cerberus? And Jakob will answer something along the lines of: "yeah. They warned us that you might not remember everything".

so they synthesised memories out of thin air? lost information is lost.

[CronoDragoon]

Dr_Extrem wrote...

yes .. like i said .. i can believe it, because miranda makes it at least a bit believable. sadly, it is the beginning of the descent.

Well, we just look at it differently then. It seems you assume that everything not explicitly mentioned otherwise in Mass Effect is identical to real life science (and that is a reasonable assumption, don't get me wrong). But I look at something like reviving a dead brain as possible in ME considering we already have more implausible things happening in the ME universe. In this instance I look at the ways ME stretches the boundaries of plausibility as a sort of "threshold" to measure future developments in the ME universe. LP stays within my threshold of believability, while Synthesis far surpasses any previous suspension of disbelief.

[Dr_Extrem]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

yes .. like i said .. i can believe it, because miranda makes it at least a bit believable. sadly, it is the beginning of the descent.

Well, we just look at it differently then. It seems you assume that everything not explicitly mentioned otherwise in Mass Effect is identical to real life science (and that is a reasonable assumption, don't get me wrong). But I look at something like reviving a dead brain as possible in ME considering we already have more implausible things happening in the ME universe. In this instance I look at the ways ME stretches the boundaries of plausibility as a sort of "threshold" to measure future developments in the ME universe. LP stays within my threshold of believability, while Synthesis far surpasses any previous suspension of disbelief.

yes .. we are looking at the same fence .. only from different sides.

[AnsinJung]

humes spork wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Invoking a theme badly: Legion's death. The necessity of Legion's death is just stated without giving a reason, against the very plausible objection that it shouldn't be necessary according to established in-world logic. Thus, the impression is given that sacrifice has an ontological meaning, that it changes the world because it is the giving of a life. It is suggested that the psychological effect the sacrifice has on us who read it exists in-world as a physical reality.

Okay, I have to say something about this. You're anthropomorphizing Legion, and treating its "death" as literal when it ought to not be. Literally, the 1,183 runtimes in the platform disseminate into the Consensus to execute the update. The platform shuts down. No more, no less. No entity that can be spoken of in literal terms ceases to exist; no entity that can be spoken of in literal terms ever really existed in the first place, if you want to go to the mats about it.

But he's dead to the characters in the game.  Additionally, we, the audience, don't get to see his goofy expressions at Shepard anymore.  I loved when his flashlight head thing would flare out when he was acting awkward or embarrassed, like when explaining his N7 armor to Shepard.

[Vinny]

Ieldra2 wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

because dead brains are still dead in the meu. exept shepads off course.

Where does it say that it's scientifically impossible to bring someone back to life? Or that dead brains can never be regenerated?

There is chemical deteroriation. You can theoretically rebuild the brain, but with every second that passes after brain death, information stored in it will be progressively lost. To reconstruct the person, this information has to come from somewhere.

I tend to agree, the only other evidence we have is the Huerta v. Ford case : 

The nations of Earth are in suspense tonight as the Systems Alliance hears Ford v. Huerta, the first case of a human leader using reconstructive data storage to prolong his brain functions and stay physically capable to perform his duties. Speaker of the House Lisa Ford has led the charge against Huerta, saying that the last year of his term was illegitimate. A stroke left the President legally dead and in cryocool for an hour and a half before his brain functions were fully transferred to a computer. The amount of memory degradation was never fully revealed. According to the United North American States' line of succession, if Huerta was considered dead, then power would transfer to the Vice President and Speaker Ford would have held the position of Vice President for the last year.

The rest of the storyline is here : masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Cerberus_Daily_News_-_March_2010#03.2F04.2F2010_-_Earth_Nations_in_Suspense_as_Systems_Alliance_Hears_Ford_v._Huerta


It's not impossible, but you'll automatically lose something in the process.
To me, Shepard's death has always been here to add somekind of mysticism to the character. It was intended to be like that, and I don't think they'll explain it in the future. 

Modifié par Epök, 19 février 2013 - 05:03 .

[Sejborg]

Dr_Extrem wrote...

Sejborg wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

because dead brains are still dead in the meu. exept shepads off course.

Where does it say that it's scientifically impossible to bring someone back to life? Or that dead brains can never be regenerated?

There is chemical deteroriation. You can theoretically rebuild the brain, but with every second that passes after brain death, information stored in it will be progressively lost. To reconstruct the person, this information has to come from somewhere.

Yep. And that "somewhere" is also a part of the Lazarus project. That is why Jakob and Miranda is asking what Shepard is remembering and what not. For instance - when Jakob says in the beginning that he works for Cerberus Shepard can answer - what is Cerberus? And Jakob will answer something along the lines of: "yeah. They warned us that you might not remember everything".

so they synthesised memories out of thin air? lost information is lost.

Correct. That's why Jakob may have to explain what Cerberus is, even though Shepard have experience with them in the past. 

[CronoDragoon]

Sejborg wrote...

Correct. That's why Jakob may have to explain what Cerberus is, even though Shepard have experience with them in the past. 

Right, but the important part of Ieldra's post is that every second that passes more info is lost. Based on the Liara comic, we aren't talking about seconds after Shepard's death so much as hours and days before the revival process begins. In order then for the LP to be considered scientifically feasible, we'd have to assume that the brain can somehow retain the information in other ways unmeasurable by our current RL technology.

Now, that's not impossible, considering no one in current science can really claim to know the brain, but it does posit something other than what we currently know about the brain.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 19 février 2013 - 05:07 .

[humes spork]

AnsinJung wrote...

But he's dead to the characters in the game.

An interesting point in a discussion about whether or not metaphor can (or should) have literal impact, and whether metaphor alone is viable means of storytelling in science-fiction, isn't it.

It's interesting that after fifteen pages of this thread discussing Legion's death, and using it as example to argue metaphor and allegory has no apparent place in science-fiction, nobody before me even thought for a second to mention Legion's identity itself is a metaphor.

Modifié par humes spork, 19 février 2013 - 05:24 .