706 réponses à ce sujet

[mvaning]

Yate wrote...

frankly the game crossed over from science to mysticism the moment you activated the beacon on Eden Prime so I don't see why you're all getting your panties in a twist

More paranormal than mysticism.  Paranormal themes in science fiction are part of the science fiction genre.

[Wayning_Star]

eveyone is just bummed cause the game is about to end and they don't know what to make of it.

[FlamingBoy]

Everything about mass effect 3 is so god damm vague!
its infuriating

[Indy_S]

Wayning_Star wrote...

eveyone is just bummed cause the game is about to end and they don't know what to make of it.

That's an odd conclusion. Would the discussion have stopped a long time ago if no DLC was made? I don't see anybody here as bummed.

[o Ventus]

Sejborg wrote...

But that would probably make the Lazarus project impossible, so clearly that didn't happen. To headcannon something that implements plot holes to the story; is doing it wrong imo.  

Not necessarily. Organ cloning. All they would need is a sufficient DNA sample size ("meat and tubes..."). They didn't just resurrect Shepard, they recreated his body basically from scratch except for the small recoverable tissue. 

Dr. Heart was doing something similar in ME1.

[Wayning_Star]

Indy_S wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

eveyone is just bummed cause the game is about to end and they don't know what to make of it.

That's an odd conclusion. Would the discussion have stopped a long time ago if no DLC was made? I don't see anybody here as bummed.

not really a 'conlusion' more of a fly by observation..my bad for inflicting it on you..

[Wayning_Star]

o Ventus wrote...

Sejborg wrote...

But that would probably make the Lazarus project impossible, so clearly that didn't happen. To headcannon something that implements plot holes to the story; is doing it wrong imo.  

Not necessarily. Organ cloning. All they would need is a sufficient DNA sample size ("meat and tubes..."). They didn't just resurrect Shepard, they recreated his body basically from scratch except for the small recoverable tissue. 

Dr. Heart was doing something similar in ME1.

the reinstallation of Shep software kind of threw fans tho..

[Wayning_Star]

kind of a funny thought about mysticisms.

are humans/organics born with an 'open' operating system, or is there programs running pre experience?

I bet the catalyst would know..

[Mouton_Alpha]

mvaning wrote...

Mouton_Alpha wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

Why can't Science and Mysticism mix?

Because mystical thinking asserts there are things that cannot be understood or explained, a view that science rejects.

From wikipedia . . .

Mysticism is the pursuit of communion with, identity with, or conscious awareness of an ultimate reality, divinity, spiritual truth, or God through direct experience, intuition, instinct or insight. Mysticism usually centers on practices intended to nurture those experiences. Mysticism may be dualistic, maintaining a distinction between the self and the divine, or may be nondualistic.


Mysticism and Science Fiction can mix, but depending on how it is done, it may not be recieved well.

God, divinity, spirituality are things that, by definition, cannot be understood or explained, often based on myths, feelings and hallucination. Science believes everything can be eventually explained and bases everything on strict research methods methods and facts.

Though I do agree they can do mix to some extent, but mostly in the form of legacy beliefs, like Asari religion. The problems begin when actual events are of mystical character, as shown in ME3.

[Lunch Box1912]

I agree that the narrative coherence seemed to dissipate from ME2 to ME3 to the point where you got to the end and it was just gone.

No matter how farfetched a story can get in a fictional “fantasy” universe if you lay down distinct laws of logic defining reality in that realm and non reality in that realm (lore etc) you give the reader a sense of logic to imagine and understand this realm, to accept certain concepts of the story within the realm. This allows the reader to become more familiar with concepts within the story and to ponder on how conflicts will be resolved within the story. The Story starts getting a lot less interesting when the laws of the logic used to build the realm or universe within the story begin to be broken left and right. What is there to logically think about if there is never a logical answer based off the original logic laws? It becomes pointless.

I guess what my point is I see some people pointing things out that are scientifically not possible. In a fictional story, anything is possible. However I do agree if you are going to make it possible in a Science fiction realm you better have a good goddamn explanation for it.

Modifié par Lunch Box1912, 20 février 2013 - 04:50 .

[Lunch Box1912]

ninjoroman wrote...

so in the mass effect universe I will now try to compare operation styles to synthetic lifestyles:

Geth: smartphones (connected to each other all the time, not really used outside of highly populated areas)
EDI: Wii U (exists in one form and sometimes streams to a separate body)
Reapers: PC's (old machines that can hack into other machines)

Is that right?

haha Yeah that about sums it up.

[Addictress]

mvaning wrote...

Addictress wrote...

And Star Trek teleportation is far more solid.

I'm not sure what point your trying to make here.    Are you inferring that I have anywhere stated that elements of Star Trek are more or less plausible than elements of Mass Effect?    I have not so your rheteoric falls on pointless goals.

Because you didn't have any stronger goal in the post I replied to in this conversation than mine in pointing out the weakness of the LP in real-life scientific terms. You're just condescendingly pointing out what science is credible and what science is not credible. So what?

[humes spork]

Mouton_Alpha wrote...

You are basically denying what was done with Legion in ME3 and continuing to think of Legion as he was in ME2.

Yes, I am, and I'm doing it on purpose to make a point about how that scene was depicted and why. Thank you for pointing the exceedingly obvious. How about reading my other posts on the thread, now.

Modifié par humes spork, 20 février 2013 - 05:13 .

[Addictress]

At what point must something be foreshadowed in order to become part of Mass Effect lore?  Once something is introduced, it is part of the lore until otherwise contradicted. So I don't see why LP is seen as askew to the lore because it wasn't foreshadowed in ME1. 

[Addictress]

LineHolder wrote...

Addictress wrote...

mvaning wrote...

Addictress wrote...

And Star Trek teleportation is far more solid.

I'm not sure what point your trying to make here.    Are you inferring that I have anywhere stated that elements of Star Trek are more or less plausible than elements of Mass Effect?    I have not so your rheteoric falls on pointless goals.

Because you didn't have any stronger goal in the post I replied to in this conversation than mine in pointing out the weakness of the LP in real-life scientific terms. You're just condescendingly pointing out what science is credible and what science is not credible. So what?

Why are you comparing Star Trek's in-world science with Mass Effect's in-world science? Mass Effect abandons its own in-world science in favor of space magic and yuck ... allegory. That's what the thread is about. 

Why do people hate allegory?  Is this a sudden textbook idea in literature classes that actually criticizes allegory? Allegory is a common literary device that can either be executed well or not. Just because the allegories in religious texts point to myths or ideas which don't suit us because of our times doesn't mean the allegory wasn't powerfully meaningful to the people of those authors' times. An allegory can be much more powerful depending on context and audience than literal face-value methods.

I mean, if this is a new thing which I'm just not educated on in which allegory is disregarded as a poor writing device to use by some International Panel of Writers, then excuse my being out of touch. <-- horrible syntax, I know

Modifié par Addictress, 20 février 2013 - 05:21 .

[Indy_S]

Addictress wrote...

Why do people hate allegory?  Is this a sudden textbook idea in literature classes that actually criticizes allegory? Allegory is a common literary device that can either be executed well or not. Just because the allegories in religious texts point to myths or ideas which don't suit us because of our times doesn't mean the allegory wasn't powerfully meaningful to the people of those authors' times. An allegory can be much more powerful depending on context and audience than literal face-value methods.

I mean, if this is a new thing which I'm just not educated on in which allegory is disregarded as a poor writing device to use by some International Panel of Writers, then excuse my being out of touch.

I dislike allegory for the same reason I dislike contrivance. They're used poorly. They could work, but they just don't. Lazarus is both of those and more.

[eddieoctane]

Wayning_Star wrote...

eveyone is just bummed cause the game is about to end and they don't know what to make of it.

For many of us, the game ended before the 2nd week of March did. Back then, I knew exactly what to make of it:

Mac and Casey decided they wanted to produce a game intended as a piece of high art within a game universe built on fair hard science fiction. It was a foolish endevor. I applaud attempts to prove that games, as a medium, can be true art, art for art's sake. But trying to do so in a big-budget action adventure game does a true disservice to both gaming and art. ME3, as a result, is neither.

[Yate]

mvaning wrote...

Yate wrote...

frankly the game crossed over from science to mysticism the moment you activated the beacon on Eden Prime so I don't see why you're all getting your panties in a twist

More paranormal than mysticism.  Paranormal themes in science fiction are part of the science fiction genre.

potayto potahto

[Addictress]

Indy_S wrote...

Addictress wrote...

Why do people hate allegory?  Is this a sudden textbook idea in literature classes that actually criticizes allegory? Allegory is a common literary device that can either be executed well or not. Just because the allegories in religious texts point to myths or ideas which don't suit us because of our times doesn't mean the allegory wasn't powerfully meaningful to the people of those authors' times. An allegory can be much more powerful depending on context and audience than literal face-value methods.

I mean, if this is a new thing which I'm just not educated on in which allegory is disregarded as a poor writing device to use by some International Panel of Writers, then excuse my being out of touch.

I dislike allegory for the same reason I dislike contrivance. They're used poorly. They could work, but they just don't. Lazarus is both of those and more.

Lazarus was barely even an allegory. I didn't think of the phoenix myth for one second while watching the Lazarus Project montage. I thought, 'oh, this is a badass narrative event that explains the past two years both in meta-narrative (the game came out two years later) and in narrative.

Now if they had Commander Shepard in camera angles that suggested a re-birth, or a glorification of some kind, or some kind of deification lighting or terminology, that would be another story. Instead, the Illusive Man says, "See it that we don't (lose her)"

More than anything the retrieval of Shepard is like Shepard has become an objectified war asset in a larger game, rather than a Special Mystical Chose One who is aloof and unexplicably superior. Shepard's retrieval in this opening sequence gives me, the player, the viewer, the impression that a rich man is retrieving something precious.

[humes spork]

Addictress wrote...

Why do people hate allegory?

For many people, because it's "cool" to hate allegory and it gives them justification for hating ME3. 

[Addictress]

Sorry I'm so hung up on the Lazarus Project but DANGIT, that was my favorite opening sequence to my favorite installment in my favorite game ever and I don't like watching people dissing it

[Masha Potato]

I'm not sure ME ever was about SCIENCE, it's more a matter of keeping inner lore consistency

[mvaning]

Addictress wrote...

mvaning wrote...

Addictress wrote...

And Star Trek teleportation is far more solid.

I'm not sure what point your trying to make here.    Are you inferring that I have anywhere stated that elements of Star Trek are more or less plausible than elements of Mass Effect?    I have not so your rheteoric falls on pointless goals.

Because you didn't have any stronger goal in the post I replied to in this conversation than mine in pointing out the weakness of the LP in real-life scientific terms.

Okay, so first you are saying that I am making a qualitative comparison between Mass Effect and Star Trek.  I refuted that claim.  Now your saying that I made this comparison because of something I was talking about in a different topic?   That makes zero sense.

The OP states that the Lazarus Project has strong mysticism undertones, which I agree with.   Acid_Wulf said that they are not mystic undertones because the LP is possible in real life.     I responded by stating that the LP is absolutely not possible in real life.   I also asked him to show proof of his claim.    But what is the point of this?

Addictress wrote...
You're just condescendingly pointing out what science is credible and what science is not credible. So what? 

I hate to be the bearer of bad news but your the one being conescending right now.   So either make a counter arguement against something I have said that you don't agree with or don't.  This counter-arguement should be relavent to the OP's topic.   Otherwise, to me, you are just being argumentative for no reason at all. 

Modifié par mvaning, 20 février 2013 - 05:44 .

[Indy_S]

Addictress wrote...

Lazarus was barely even an allegory. I didn't think of the phoenix myth for one second while watching the Lazarus Project montage. I thought, 'oh, this is a badass narrative event that explains the past two years both in meta-narrative (the game came out two years later) and in narrative.

Now if they had Commander Shepard in camera angles that suggested a re-birth, or a glorification of some kind, or some kind of deification lighting or terminology, that would be another story. Instead, the Illusive Man says, "See it that we don't (lose her)"

More than anything the retrieval of Shepard is like Shepard has become an objectified war asset in a larger game, rather than a Special Mystical Chose One who is aloof and unexplicably superior. Shepard's retrieval in this opening sequence gives me, the player, the viewer, the impression that a rich man is retrieving something precious.

For the record it's fine to like the Lazarus Project. The scene was cool and dramatic, it provided a radical shift on the story and it explains why you can change Shepard's face.

However, the phoenix myth is still present in it. There is a rebirth, the being involved is improved and their actions that follow can be attributed to revenge. This is also tied into the "You Are Special' cliche that some people are repulsed by, made all the more jarring by the fact that what Shepard does afterwards isn't special.