706 réponses à ce sujet

[CronoDragoon]

Ieldra2 wrote...
Lazarus on its own was just too unexplained. It's suggestive but not really a problem. It becomes problematic retroactively with Miranda's explanation of things in ME3.

How so? I don't remember her explanation so I'm genuinely asking.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 18 février 2013 - 04:09 .

[Ieldra]

As for powers, ME2's Reave was the worst offender. But I could ignore that as gameplay/story segregation.

[BleedingUranium]

Ieldra2 wrote...

PsiMatrix wrote...
Actually Legion's death could be attributed to his bluebox which is unique for each AI. It's explained in an ME1 codex that even if you transfer the software that makes up an AI; the original AI is lost because of this 'quantumn bluebox' being unique in some way..

Except that it's repeatedly said that geth are pure software. They are not tied to their hardware the way EDI is.

There's no difference. Geth would develop personalities if they remained in the same plaform long enough, like Legion did. There's nothing stopping EDI from moving around in the same fashion, it's just that she'd lose what makes her, her. That's why Legion was the only Geth to develop a personality, preferences, and such.

The only "mysticism" is Mass Effect is Synthesis.

[Atekimagus]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Lazarus on its own was just too unexplained. It's suggestive but not really a problem. It becomes problematic retroactively with Miranda's explanation of things in ME3.

Well that is the main problem of the whole ME3 game isn't it? That it creates so many flaws with the previous narratives, which until then, at least made a certain kind of sense.

[Wayning_Star]

Ieldra2 wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...
I don't really have a problem with the Lazarus Project. I can buy a magical element that grants FTL travel, teleportation, and the ability to blast energy waves from your body, but I can't buy the regeneration of dead cells given massive resources?

Lazarus on its own was just too unexplained. It's suggestive but not really a problem. It becomes problematic retroactively with Miranda's explanation of things in ME3.

Yep, I often wondered where that tech went just after Shep strolls out to herodom...as if others wouldn't want to live for ever'n all. Not to mention who the lucky dogs were who actually designed the technology.

I head canoned an entire DLC just exploring those aspect/origins, but alas, I don't resemble a writer..so much for that DLC..lol

[Ieldra]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
Lazarus on its own was just too unexplained. It's suggestive but not really a problem. It becomes problematic retroactively with Miranda's explanation of things in ME3.

How so? I don't remember her explanation so I'm genuinely asking.

She says she had never had to deal with so many black boxes, suggesting that she didn't understand everything she was doing and there was some incomprehensible technology involved. This may be an artifact of less-than-stellar writing, though, rather than a genuine problem, since the Cronos logs show that Miranda suggested it was possible in the first place.    

[MegumiAzusa]

Legion hadn't developed a unified personality until the Reaper upgrades.

[d-boy15]

Ieldra2 wrote...

d-boy15 wrote...
this is... well... unexpected.

That I like the outcome of Synthesis doesn't mean I'm indifferent to the flaws in its exposition.

yeah, I understand... good analysis by the way.

[Ieldra]

BleedingUranium wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

PsiMatrix wrote...
Actually Legion's death could be attributed to his bluebox which is unique for each AI. It's explained in an ME1 codex that even if you transfer the software that makes up an AI; the original AI is lost because of this 'quantumn bluebox' being unique in some way..

Except that it's repeatedly said that geth are pure software. They are not tied to their hardware the way EDI is.

There's no difference. Geth would develop personalities if they remained in the same plaform long enough, like Legion did. There's nothing stopping EDI from moving around in the same fashion, it's just that she'd lose what makes her, her. That's why Legion was the only Geth to develop a personality, preferences, and such.

The only "mysticism" is Mass Effect is Synthesis.

There is no evidence for this interpretation in the games. There is no evidence, in fact, for its far wider implication: that a personality cannot exist without being bound by hardware. Tali's explanations about how the geth - after having gained individuality - still download into the suits of quarians to help them adapt suggests that geth personalities exist independently from their hardware.

[GiarcYekrub]

Your over thinking it.

[Ieldra]

BleedingUranium wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

PsiMatrix wrote...
Actually Legion's death could be attributed to his bluebox which is unique for each AI. It's explained in an ME1 codex that even if you transfer the software that makes up an AI; the original AI is lost because of this 'quantumn bluebox' being unique in some way..

Except that it's repeatedly said that geth are pure software. They are not tied to their hardware the way EDI is.

There's no difference. Geth would develop personalities if they remained in the same plaform long enough, like Legion did. There's nothing stopping EDI from moving around in the same fashion, it's just that she'd lose what makes her, her. That's why Legion was the only Geth to develop a personality, preferences, and such.

The only "mysticism" is Mass Effect is Synthesis.

There is no evidence for this interpretation in the games. There is no evidence, in fact, for its far wider implication: that a personality cannot exist without being bound by hardware. Tali's explanations about how the geth - after having gained individuality - still download into the suits of quarians to help them adapt suggests that geth personalities exist independently from their hardware.

[Auld Wulf]

Sigh.

"Any technology, no matter how primitive, is magic to those who don't understand it."

Show an old person set in their ways an iPhone, and they'll dismiss it as an unnecessary evil, potentially even a tool of the devil. Mass Effect doesn't 'descend into mysticism.' I see that as quasi-religious crap, to be blunt. Instead, it deals with higher level theories and future potentials. We're already well on our way towards a technological Singularity anyway.

The Lazarus project was something we could almost theoretically do today. Two hundred years in the future, with all of the technological and medical advancements involved, and the amount of money and resources that The Illusive Man has? And you'd find that unbelievable?

I'm sorry, but this is base ludditism at its best. You don't want to believe that science can advance past a certain point, so you decry it as mysticism, you attach a religious element to it in the hopes that others will decry it with you.

It's ridiculous. I'm guessing you're not a Nature reader, OP.

[TurianRebel212]

It's a work of fiction, just because it's rooted in scifi doesn't mean it's solely based on science.

Some of the greatest pieces of scifi- Neuromancer, Enders Game, Blade Runner, BSG-remake, Dune, Star Wars, Hyperion, Ghost in The Shell, require a certain aspect of suspension of disbelief. It is fiction. Not exact science. Keyword. FICTION.

Modifié par TurianRebel212, 18 février 2013 - 04:20 .

[Wayning_Star]

GiarcYekrub wrote...

Your over thinking it.

space never ends.. must be magic,eh?

if that's true then we're always at the center of it all?

them old timers were right!!

[Ieldra]

GiarcYekrub wrote...
Your over thinking it.

If it's not intentional - if they really wanted to explain things in believable in-world terms but couldn't - then it's the result of incompetence and the writer responsible should've stayed away from a high profile science fiction franchise until he learned how to write better.

@TurianRebel212
"Anything goes" is not a defining characteristic of any believable fictional universe.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 18 février 2013 - 04:27 .

[ME859]

Very well written. Don't totally agree with everything but overall a well thought out analysis.

[Steelcan]

@Auld Wolf. Mystical terms are used to describe the events in ME. Vitalism, mysticism, religious parallels Re all used. Not technological terms.

[GreyLycanTrope]

Went form Physics Plus to Science in Genre Only.

Modifié par Greylycantrope, 18 février 2013 - 04:28 .

[Wayning_Star]

Auld Wulf wrote...

Sigh.

"Any technology, no matter how primitive, is magic to those who don't understand it."

Show an old person set in their ways an iPhone, and they'll dismiss it as an unnecessary evil, potentially even a tool of the devil. Mass Effect doesn't 'descend into mysticism.' I see that as quasi-religious crap, to be blunt. Instead, it deals with higher level theories and future potentials. We're already well on our way towards a technological Singularity anyway.

The Lazarus project was something we could almost theoretically do today. Two hundred years in the future, with all of the technological and medical advancements involved, and the amount of money and resources that The Illusive Man has? And you'd find that unbelievable?

I'm sorry, but this is base ludditism at its best. You don't want to believe that science can advance past a certain point, so you decry it as mysticism, you attach a religious element to it in the hopes that others will decry it with you.

It's ridiculous. I'm guessing you're not a Nature reader, OP.

actually no Wulf, the OP isn't a luddite, but is trying to be nice to them is all. Moderate. She's a synthesis waver...so.

My excuse is that I space out..so i'm not a luddite.. I never try to 'ite' stuff, or I'd become an Auld Wulfite..lol

a very little play on words there..heheh

[GreyLycanTrope]

"Sigh. Luddites, luddites everywhere" - Auld Wulf in a nutshell.

Modifié par Greylycantrope, 18 février 2013 - 04:32 .

[Wayning_Star]

LineHolder wrote...

Wayning, did you write Mordin's lines or were you his voice actor?

Why's everybody always pickin' on me?!!!

[Ieldra]

@Auld Wulf:
You misunderstand the problem. Simply remaining unknown is not a problem. With regard to organics and synthetics: we do know what the difference is, right? A fundamental difference in design and an accidental one in "chemistry". There's nothing mystical about it. Yet, suddenly, there is such a thing as "organic energy"? How does this connect with the fictional reality of the ME universe? Yeah, it doesn't.  

@Greylycanthrope:
The irony is that he's now calling *me* a luddite.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 18 février 2013 - 04:36 .

[Dieb]

[quote]Ieldra2 wrote...
The setup: Mass Effect 1
.[/quote]

Everything established in ME needs no explanation. It is pure fiction, and the first game is the creators telling you what this fiction consists of. I don't get the criticism here, it's kind of self-explanatory.

[quote]Ieldra2 wrote...
The first tear in reality: The Lazarus Project
.[/quote]

It's always surprising to me, how people accept so many things within the ME lore, yet this is the point that sets them off. Given not only what science is capable of doing on this field even today, but also projecting that 250 years in the future, and put it in the hands of a group like Cerberus, I never had the thought "Wait, how is this possible?"[/quote]

[quote]Ieldra2 wrote...
The Suicide Mission and the deliberate mystification of the Reapers' creation
[/quote]

This is simple. It was a last minute call from "someone higher up". There is no proper explanation for it, because until the end of the game, it didn't even exist. There wasn't even a boss battle planned originally at the end of ME2. Chris L'Etoile specifically adresses this in his infamous comment after his departure from BioWare.

[quote]Ieldra2 wrote...
The final descent: Legion's sacrifice
[/quote]

Legion dies because uploading the Geth on his plattform to the rest of his species will end their (meaning the geth in the platform) brief existence as a single individual. Basically I understood it as all the Geth on the platform "Legion" get fused together into the individual "Legion", only to have to split up again -thus ending the individual again- in order to make it work for the others.
I neither understand what's tragic about this "death", not what's mystical about it. Except the reaper tech thingy giving machines a personality... I agree that's, like, totally science fiction.

Modifié par Baelrahn, 18 février 2013 - 04:44 .