706 réponses à ce sujet

[Elista]

Without being meticulous, I love when a story is believable, and from that point of view I was really disappointed by the evolution of the serie. The words "life energy" and "vital essence" are the worst I could figure in a SF story. There is already enough of that magical soup in Fantasy.

[Ieldra]

78stonewobble wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Oh my. I shouldn't have mentioned the Lazarus project. Everyone going on about that totally misses the point.

@StoneWobble:
The problem is that the physical remains deteriorate fast. But as I said, leaving that unexplained, in itself, is not necessarily a problem.

My point was more and I'm sorry for not getting that across. That even a scientifically based explanation, for pretty much anything, will be based on our own still quite lacking scientific understanding of the universe.

There is plenty of room for alot of things between what we know is possible and what is really impossible (or rather very improbable if you subscribe to that line of thinking).

Oh, I'm aware of that. It's why I considered the possibility of "holographic memory" as a feasible rationalization for the LP.

The issue I have with it in this case, is that Shepard's death and resurrection has a memetic significance, it calls on cultural, namely religious memes. The endings also call strongly upon the same memes, and parts of the ending exposition are phrased in mystical terms. Take this context as a whole, and leaving Lazarus un-rationalized in terms of fictional science appears like a suggestion to rationalize it in terms of those religious memes.

If this was not intended - and I think it may not have been - this is an object lesson to be careful with the themes you introduce into your story. Context already established makes them acquire a life of their own.

PS: The normandy crash site does look cold enough to preserve biological material allmost eternally. Ie. mammoths frozen for thousands of years.

Except that orbital descent is hot. Even smaller meteorites burn up completely. What do you think happens with a human body, to say nothing of the integrity of the brain? Orbital descent is absolutely out as a part of any explanation of what happened after Shepard's air tubes broke.

[Mouton_Alpha]

humes spork wrote...

Mouton_Alpha wrote...

You are basically denying what was done with Legion in ME3 and continuing to think of Legion as he was in ME2.

Yes, I am, and I'm doing it on purpose to make a point about how that scene was depicted and why. Thank you for pointing the exceedingly obvious. How about reading my other posts on the thread, now.

I read the whole thread and all you did was cling to the ME2 idea of what Legion was, while head-canoning away the fact that in ME3 it was clearly and repeatedly proclaimed he stopped being just an avatar and became an actual individual.

Feel free to mold the game to your vision in your mind in aaaany way you desire, but don't insult others just because they don't synchronize brainwaves with you.

[Nerevar-as]

Mouton_Alpha wrote...

humes spork wrote...

Mouton_Alpha wrote...

You are basically denying what was done with Legion in ME3 and continuing to think of Legion as he was in ME2.

Yes, I am, and I'm doing it on purpose to make a point about how that scene was depicted and why. Thank you for pointing the exceedingly obvious. How about reading my other posts on the thread, now.

I read the whole thread and all you did was cling to the ME2 idea of what Legion was, while head-canoning away the fact that in ME3 it was clearly and repeatedly proclaimed he stopped being just an avatar and became an actual individual.

Feel free to mold the game to your vision in your mind in aaaany way you desire, but don't insult others just because they don't synchronize brainwaves with you.

But how? Legion is the sum of more than 1000 geth, not one piloting the platform. Did they merge? Did the Reapers upgraded one and told the others to GTFA? What? ME3 Legion at times felt like a different concept from the beginning, such as the farmer geth taking the sniper rifle. That was just one of the programs that made up Legion. It´s treated as if it were Legion itself.

And about the descent into mysticism, I have to disagree. To do that, it would have to be an intentional process, such as the mystical elements of BSG or Dune (which were more similar to the use of unknown - to us - universal laws), while in ME it just feels like pseudoscientific mumbo-jumbo. The only thing I´d call actually mystical in ME would be the asari consort.

[Sejborg]

Ieldra2 wrote...
Except that orbital descent is hot. Even smaller meteorites burn up completely. What do you think happens with a human body, to say nothing of the integrity of the brain? Orbital descent is absolutely out as a part of any explanation of what happened after Shepard's air tubes broke.

Depends on the atmosphere and gravity. I don't know the numbers for that specific planet(?) Shepard may or may not have entered, but if you have the numbers then it should be possible for someone to do the math. 

Modifié par Sejborg, 20 février 2013 - 01:33 .

[ZLurps]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Perhaps, but it doesn't matter whether this dipping into mystical memes was accidental or intentional, except that it may reflect differently on the writer. The work stands as it is.

Yes, but how it's perceived by audience varies.

I for one was very surprised how some 12-13 year old could tear ME:Deception to apart in minutes. Then I stopped thinking about it for a while and of course someone who is very engaged and exited about ME universe and wanted to experience more of it could notice drop in quality. IIRC they didn't even stop thinking that "this is fantasy content there" but being brutally honest people at that age can be, simply thought it's crap and went on to see if there is actually anything good in that novel.

Similar thing applies to Sheps death in the beginning of ME2, except that there universe was able to maintain enough integrity to keep people invested. Many of us didn't really stop to analyse resurrection but instead just thought: "Oh, this is crap, but probably game will deliver as whole and unlike ME: Deception, in general it did.

It's easy to underestimate peoples abilites to read and understand media. For larger consumer groups the thing is that people are willing to accept certain amount of "space magic" if that's required to make scenario work to begin with, or if rest of the content is interesting enough to keep us wanting to handwave nonsense away "Oh this was plain marketing, but let's see where it goes from here" for example in the case of ME2. People are far more aware of what and why some things happen than some like to think and it really is that simple.

[Obadiah]

Sejborg wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
Except that orbital descent is hot. Even smaller meteorites burn up completely. What do you think happens with a human body, to say nothing of the integrity of the brain? Orbital descent is absolutely out as a part of any explanation of what happened after Shepard's air tubes broke.

Depends on the atmosphere and gravity. I don't know the numbers for that specific planet(?) Shepard may or may not have entered, but if you have the numbers then it should be possible for someone to do the math. 

It almost doesn't matter. A minute acceleration over hundred of thousands of miles to a planet - there's the heat, the unstable spin, and the impact to consider. The easiest explanation is that an orbital decent didn't happen, the trail we see in the ME2 intro movie is *shrug* some kind of optical effect, and Shep was found in orbit.

This are the stats on Alchera from the wikia:
Orbital Distance: 9.5 AU
Orbital Period: 29.4 Earth Years
Keplerian Ratio: 0.992
Radius: 9,229 km
Day Length: 59.2 Earth Hours
Atm. Pressure: 0.83 atm
Surface Temp: −22 °C
Surface Gravity: 0.85 g
Mass: 1.767 Earth Masses
Satellites: 3
[EDITED]

Modifié par Obadiah, 20 février 2013 - 02:13 .

[Sejborg]

Obadiah wrote...

Sejborg wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
Except that orbital descent is hot. Even smaller meteorites burn up completely. What do you think happens with a human body, to say nothing of the integrity of the brain? Orbital descent is absolutely out as a part of any explanation of what happened after Shepard's air tubes broke.

Depends on the atmosphere and gravity. I don't know the numbers for that specific planet(?) Shepard may or may not have entered, but if you have the numbers then it should be possible for someone to do the math. 

It almost doesn't matter. A minute acceleration over hundred of thousands of miles to a planet. There's the heat, the unstable spin, the impact - easiest explanation is that orbital decent didn't happen, the trail we see in the ME2 intro movie is some kind of optical effect, and Shep was found in orbit.

This is from the wikia:
Orbital Distance: 9.5 AU
Orbital Period: 29.4 Earth Years
Keplerian Ratio: 0.992
Radius: 9,229 km
Day Length: 59.2 Earth Hours
Atm. Pressure: 0.83 atm
Surface Temp: −22 °C
Surface Gravity: 0.85 g
Mass: 1.767 Earth Masses
Satellites: 3

There it was. I was looking for it but I couldn't find it. Yeah- So either Shepard's armor is one hell of a beast, or something else must have happened. Like she was picked up by the shadowbroker agents while in orbit or something.

Modifié par Sejborg, 20 février 2013 - 02:12 .

[mvaning]

Sejborg wrote...

Obadiah wrote...

Sejborg wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
Except that orbital descent is hot. Even smaller meteorites burn up completely. What do you think happens with a human body, to say nothing of the integrity of the brain? Orbital descent is absolutely out as a part of any explanation of what happened after Shepard's air tubes broke.

Depends on the atmosphere and gravity. I don't know the numbers for that specific planet(?) Shepard may or may not have entered, but if you have the numbers then it should be possible for someone to do the math. 

It almost doesn't matter. A minute acceleration over hundred of thousands of miles to a planet. There's the heat, the unstable spin, the impact - easiest explanation is that orbital decent didn't happen, the trail we see in the ME2 intro movie is some kind of optical effect, and Shep was found in orbit.

This is from the wikia:
Orbital Distance: 9.5 AU
Orbital Period: 29.4 Earth Years
Keplerian Ratio: 0.992
Radius: 9,229 km
Day Length: 59.2 Earth Hours
Atm. Pressure: 0.83 atm
Surface Temp: −22 °C
Surface Gravity: 0.85 g
Mass: 1.767 Earth Masses
Satellites: 3

There it was. I was looking for it but I couldn't find it. Yeah- So either Shepard's armor is one hell of a beast, or something else must have happened. Like she was picked up by the shadowbroker agents while in orbit or something.

There was an oxygen leak in his armor.   It would be hard to argue that any heat shielding provided from his armor could negate the large amounts of heat taken from re-entry if the suit can't even hold air.

[mvaning]

Ieldra2 wrote...

(2) This thread was not intended as a criticism of the use of "impossible" technologies in general, nor of the practice of leaving them unexplained.  --[1]

I am criticizing (a) the use of mystical terms in the in-world rationalization of a technology--[2], and ( leaving things unexplained in situations where leaving them unexplained suggests that an allegorical or mystical explanation hinted at through context is meant to be taken as the literal truth.--[3] The reason I am criticizing this is that these practices suggest that mystical explanations are somehow more technically appropriate than technical ones in describing the world, redefining the universe in mystical terms.

[1] Some people think that the mystical allegories, that are impossible in real life, are not mysticism because they actually can happen in real life.    Thus, derailment.  

[2] I have no problem with the use of this, as long as it is used sparringly.

[3] This is subjective.    Some people will like it, some people will not.   As a story telling tool, I don't think that this technique is bad.  If the majority of your fans hate the mystical allegory that the unexplained is alluding to, then the use of that technique was done in poor taste.

Paranormal themes are part of the Science Fiction genre.    What I don't like in ME is that there are so many of these unexplained phenoma that it basically overrides the Science Fiction genre that it presents itself as.    For a Science Fiction genre, somethings have to be explained in ways that are more or less plausible.  Otherwise, as you said, the "mystical explanations are somehow more technically appropriate than
technical ones in describing the world, redefining the universe in
mystical terms."

Also, and in general, the use of leaving things unexplained as a writing tool is over-used in Mass Effect. To me, the game turned into a Fantasy game.    I don't mind playing a Fantasy game.  If the (game) story presents itself as a Science Fiction work and turns out to be Fantasy, then I am going to be disappointed. 

Now I guess you could say, "Well there is nothing wrong with a game changing its genre."   This is a mistake and I believe a very poor writing style     Why?   Because as a writer, you attract a specific audience when you engage a theme such as science fiction.    If you change the theme, then the audience that enjoys your work specifically for the old theme's appeal, is suddenly turned off.     

The game started as Science Fiction, but at the end, it's theme changed into more of a mystical/fantasy theme.    The theme's change may attract people who enjoy the mystical/fantasy themes, but at the same time, it will disown the people who enjoy Science Fiction.     This is a poor writing style IMO.     A story shouldn't change themes like this.   

Modifié par mvaning, 20 février 2013 - 03:28 .

[DoomsdayDevice]

In response to OP, several things:

1. Nowhere does the "catalyst" mention synthetic DNA. He literally says: "Organics will be perfected by integrating fully with synthetic technology. Synthetics, in turn, will finally have full understanding of organics." Nowhere does he say that synthetic and organic DNA will be combined, or that synthetics will become partly organic. He says organics will be upgraded with tech, and therefore synthetics will be able to understand them.

2. As for harvesting 'organic essence', I see it this way:

Humans use things that grow in nature to produce medicine. For example, we use a plant's genetic ability to disinfect.

In much the same way, Reapers harvest organics in order to harness their unique genetic capabilities.

When the intelligence harvested the Leviathans, it harnessed their genetic ability to enthrall organics. Through genetic manipulation, the Reapers were then able to improve and perfect the ability. That's how Harbinger got the ability to assume direct control of the Collectors, as well as the power to indoctrinate.

Modifié par DoomsdayDevice, 20 février 2013 - 03:04 .

[Fixers0]

While there certainly has been a decent in the Mass Effect series I wouldn't say it was from science to mysticism. In fact mysticism has been part of the Mass Effect fiction from the beggining, and because of that is was acceptable and didn't break the suspension of disbelief. The existance of the Prothean beacons, the Thorian, etc is all clear because they are right in front of us as part of the univerese' fiction. The Problem with Project: Lazarus is that there isn't any kind of reasonable literary or fictional explanation, instead they present it as a medical miracle, primarly relaying on contemporary medical convenstions, as such there needs to be sufficient scientific evidence as to how this is possible, which  they can't. Because there's no such thing as contemporary science that revives people. In the End all the narrative does is providing a Hand wave.

[78stonewobble]

Ieldra2 wrote...
Oh, I'm aware of that. It's why I considered the possibility of "holographic memory" as a feasible rationalization for the LP.

The issue I have with it in this case, is that Shepard's death and resurrection has a memetic significance, it calls on cultural, namely religious memes. The endings also call strongly upon the same memes, and parts of the ending exposition are phrased in mystical terms. Take this context as a whole, and leaving Lazarus un-rationalized in terms of fictional science appears like a suggestion to rationalize it in terms of those religious memes.

If this was not intended - and I think it may not have been - this is an object lesson to be careful with the themes you introduce into your story. Context already established makes them acquire a life of their own.

PS: The normandy crash site does look cold enough to preserve biological material allmost eternally. Ie. mammoths frozen for thousands of years.

Except that orbital descent is hot. Even smaller meteorites burn up completely. What do you think happens with a human body, to say nothing of the integrity of the brain? Orbital descent is absolutely out as a part of any explanation of what happened after Shepard's air tubes broke.

Well to be honest that is more the "fault" of the recipients of the story.

Sure you can make certain connections to eg. messiah shep, but ... To me it's kinda forced... To me thats just from an old book o fairytales that was too boring to read through.

Atleast for me the thing has very little to no connection to religion. Simply because religion is an infinitely small and irrelevant part of me and my life.

But I can see your point.

At the last part. Easily explained by: Future body armor is just that good. Else it can be explained by the body never reentering. There's really no concrete evidence for and against either.

Personally I can accept pretty fantastic stuff. Heck... FTL travel is much more impossible than good armor.

Modifié par 78stonewobble, 20 février 2013 - 03:25 .

[humes spork]

Mouton_Alpha wrote...

I read the whole thread and all you did was cling to the ME2 idea of what Legion was, while head-canoning away the fact that in ME3 it was clearly and repeatedly proclaimed he stopped being just an avatar and became an actual individual.

It takes a very interesting, unique, and selective reading of my posts to assume that's what I'm doing, especially when I make posts such as,

Because Legion was then capable of understanding its own gestalt as unique, does not mean it was necessarily a higher order, or more literal, existence. Do minds exist in the physical world? There was still nothing in fact lost when Legion disseminated its runtimes into the consensus. We simply take it on faith what we (and Legion, obviously) know as Legion had intrinsic value beyond the sum of its runtimes, platform, and experiences.

What in fact happens at that point is not interpretation, by the way. It disseminates its runtimes into the consensus to push the update, and its platform shuts down. That's what Legion tells you needs to happen, what does happen, and is corroborated by the geth prime that speaks to you after the fact even as it seems to impart intrinsic value to Legion's "identity".

[mvaning]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

In response to OP, several things:

1. Nowhere does the "catalyst" mention synthetic DNA. He literally says: "Organics will be perfected by integrating fully with synthetic technology. Synthetics, in turn, will finally have full understanding of organics." Nowhere does he say that synthetic and organic DNA will be combined, or that synthetics will become partly organic. He says organics will be upgraded with tech, and therefore synthetics will be able to understand them.

Actually, the catalyst does state that there will be a new synthetic DNA.

Catalyst:  "The chain reaction will combine all synthetic and organic life into a new framework.  A new ... DNA. "

www.youtube.com/watch    @9:48

[mvaning]

78stonewobble wrote...

Well to be honest that is more the "fault" of the recipients of the story.

I don't agree.   Even the name "Lazarus" is an ode to a story in the bible about a man named "Lazarus" who was resurrected by Jesus.   It is not at all a stretch of the imagination to see a religious allegory.  Especially if the name, itself, alludes to a religious story.

[CronoDragoon]

Ieldra2 wrote...
 and ( leaving things unexplained in situations where leaving them unexplained suggests that an allegorical or mystical explanation hinted at through context is meant to be taken as the literal truth. The reason I am criticizing this is that these practices suggest that mystical explanations are somehow more technically appropriate than technical ones in describing the world, redefining the universe in mystical terms.

You'd have a better point if Legion's "death" were explained through mystical or metaphorical terms, but it's not. It may be underexplained, but it's clear prior to that moment that Legion wants to upload his Reaper-enhanced code to the other geth. It turns out he can't, and the reason why he can't isn't explained as "the soul of our species does not desire it" or some such, he says something dealing with insufficient data and that he can't overwrite them. Then he says he needs to disseminate his personality among the other geth directly, meaning his Reaper code.

I don't really see how any of that's mystical. It may be a vague and crappy technical explanation of what happens, but it still occurs and is explained through technical terms.

[ruggly]

mvaning wrote...

78stonewobble wrote...

Well to be honest that is more the "fault" of the recipients of the story.

I don't agree.   Even the name "Lazarus" is an ode to a story in the bible about a man named "Lazarus" who was resurrected by Jesus.   It is not at all a stretch of the imagination to see a religious allegory.  Especially if the name, itself, alludes to a religious story.

Not to mention that you roll around with a 12 person crew as well.

[CronoDragoon]

On the other hand, I do find the explanation for the MO of Reapers mystical. While the game attempts to relate the construction of a Reaper to the liquification of genetic data, when it comes time to actually explain how Reapers work the words take on a primarily mystical form. Reapers are a race consciousness formed by combining a bunch of minds into one mind that somehow preserves culture, etc.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 20 février 2013 - 04:03 .

[David7204]

Oh look. Yet another set of posts arguing that Shepard's body will burn up because 'Even smaller meteorites burn up completely' (This itself is completely untrue, although most meteoroids burn up, a significant number of them don't. We even have a name for those that survive to earth - meteorites. So the implication that meteoroids can't survive atmospheric entry is utter nonsense.)

Anyway, back to my point. Straight from Wikipedia -

"Meteoroids travel around the Sun in a variety of orbits and at various velocities. The fastest ones move at about 42 kilometers per second through space in the vicinity of Earth's orbit. The Earth travels at about 29.6 kilometers per second. Thus, when meteoroids meet Earth's atmosphere head-on (which only occurs when meteors are in a retrograde orbit such as the Eta Aquarids, which are associated with the retrograde Halley's Comet), the combined speed may reach about 71 kilometers per second. Meteoroids moving through Earth's orbital space average about 20 km/s."

20 kilometers per second. Is Shepard's body traveling at a speed of 20 kilometers per second towards the planet when the Normandy blows up? Is Shepard's body traveling at a speed of 8,000 meters per second (as the Space Shuttle does) when the Normandy blows up? No. As I've pointed out countless times, the only speed Shepard's body is going to have is going to the speed accumulated from the planet's gravity.

Obadiah wrote...
...A minute acceleration over hundred of thousands of miles to a planet...

"Hundreds of thousands of miles." Are you kidding me? The only Earth only has a radius of about 6,350 kilometers, or about 4,000 miles. The edge of space is usually considered to be 100 kilometers, or about 60 miles. We can clearly see the how close the planet is throughout the introduction.

Modifié par David7204, 20 février 2013 - 04:23 .

[Ieldra]

CronoDragoon wrote...
You'd have a better point if Legion's "death" were explained through mystical or metaphorical terms, but it's not. It may be underexplained, but it's clear prior to that moment that Legion wants to upload his Reaper-enhanced code to the other geth. It turns out he can't, and the reason why he can't isn't explained as "the soul of our species does not desire it" or some such, he says something dealing with insufficient data and that he can't overwrite them. Then he says he needs to disseminate his personality among the other geth directly, meaning his Reaper code.

I don't really see how any of that's mystical. It may be a vague and crappy technical explanation of what happens, but it still occurs and is explained through technical terms.

Tell me: why can't Legion just copy his code, his self, so to speak, which is software? Why is it necessary to eliminate the independent personality he has just gained? That is the pertinent question here, nothing else.

[Ieldra]

CronoDragoon wrote...
On the other hand, I do find the explanation for the MO of Reapers mystical. While the game attempts to relate the construction of a Reaper to the liquification of genetic data, when it comes time to actually explain how Reapers work the words take on a primarily mystical form. Reapers are a race consciousness formed by combining a bunch of minds into one mind that somehow preserves culture, etc.

Culture exists in memory, as information. If you upload minds somewhere, everything they contain will be preserved. That isn't particularly mysterious. To get this into a Reaper, of course, requires that not just genetic data are used, but that the brains are....and here we come to the cut lines....analyzed. Yes, extracting the core of what a species has been, including culture etc, from genetic information is nonsense. It gets mystical because the word "essence" is used, implying there there is such a thing which is more than mere information.
 

[CronoDragoon]

Ieldra2 wrote...
Tell me: why can't Legion just copy his code, his self, so to speak, which is software? Why is it necessary to eliminate the independent personality he has just gained? That is the pertinent question here, nothing else.

No, that is not the pertinent question. The event only becomes mystical if it suggests that the event is impossible to understand in technical terms. Legion's death doesn't do this. As I pointed out, Legion uses technical terms to describe why he can't just copy himself, not mystical ones.

The pertinent question is, does the game suggest that the event can only be understood outside of technical terms? Or are you merely confusing a poor technical explanation with a mystical one? Because those two things ain't the same.

[Cyberfrog81]

"I must go to them" is a technical explanation for why "copying" no longer means "copying"?

[Ieldra]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...
In response to OP, several things:

1. Nowhere does the "catalyst" mention synthetic DNA. He literally says: "Organics will be perfected by integrating fully with synthetic technology. Synthetics, in turn, will finally have full understanding of organics." Nowhere does he say that synthetic and organic DNA will be combined, or that synthetics will become partly organic. He says organics will be upgraded with tech, and therefore synthetics will be able to understand them.

Quote the Catalyst: Synthesis will "cast all organic and synthetic life into a new framework. A new.....DNA" This is almost certainly an attempt to use familiar terms to explain the function of something more complicated, an analogy, but it does imply that something like a hybrid DNA analogue could exist, ignoring that synthetics are based on a design principle that is fundamentally incompatible with the way genes work in organics. It is a failed metaphor..

2. As for harvesting 'organic essence', I see it this way:

Humans use things that grow in nature to produce medicine. For example, we use a plant's genetic ability to disinfect.

In much the same way, Reapers harvest organics in order to harness their unique genetic capabilities.

When the intelligence harvested the Leviathans, it harnessed their genetic ability to enthrall organics. Through genetic manipulation, the Reapers were then able to improve and perfect the ability. That's how Harbinger got the ability to assume direct control of the Collectors, as well as the power to indoctrinate.

I do not think using the term "essence" for this is appropriate.