706 réponses à ce sujet

[CronoDragoon]

Ieldra2 wrote...
Culture exists in memory, as information. If you upload minds somewhere, everything they contain will be preserved. That isn't particularly mysterious. To get this into a Reaper, of course, requires that not just genetic data are used, but that the brains are....and here we come to the cut lines....analyzed. Yes, extracting the core of what a species has been, including culture etc, from genetic information is nonsense. It gets mystical because the word "essence" is used, implying there there is such a thing which is more than mere information.

Exactly. It becomes mystical because of the terms used. I didn't hear anywhere mentioned that the Reapers examine brains and convert that into computer data to inhabit the synthetic body. If they had, it wouldn't be mystical. It would be dubious science. Instead they use non-science, non-technical terms to describe what happens, which makes it mystical.

[CronoDragoon]

Cyberfrog81 wrote...

"I must go to them" is a technical explanation for why "copying" no longer means "copying"?

"Insufficient data. Direct dissemination of data required." (little shaky here, but it's very close to this)

That doesn't sound mystical to me.

[Ieldra]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
Tell me: why can't Legion just copy his code, his self, so to speak, which is software? Why is it necessary to eliminate the independent personality he has just gained? That is the pertinent question here, nothing else.

No, that is not the pertinent question. The event only becomes mystical if it suggests that the event is impossible to understand in technical terms. Legion's death doesn't do this. As I pointed out, Legion uses technical terms to describe why he can't just copy himself, not mystical ones.

He doesn't explain at all. He just asserts the necessity. The non-explanation implies that there is something about his code that cannot be copied. Why? It remains unanswered, and the context in which it remains answered is colored by the invocation of the sacrifice theme. That's why it suggests mysticism.

[Ieldra]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Cyberfrog81 wrote...

"I must go to them" is a technical explanation for why "copying" no longer means "copying"?

"Insufficient data. Direct dissemination of data required." (little shaky here, but it's very close to this)

That doesn't sound mystical to me.

He says "Personality dissemination is required" But that's no explanation. It's an assertion of the necessity.

[CronoDragoon]

Ieldra2 wrote...
He says "Personality dissemination is required" But that's no explanation. It's an assertion of the necessity.

Are you implying that unless a technical explanation is given in fiction we have no choice but to interpet it mystically?

Mysticism and metaphor aren't the same thing. It would be mystical if the characters in the universe had no choice but to turn to religious/divine/mystical reasoning to explain an event.

[Ieldra]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
Culture exists in memory, as information. If you upload minds somewhere, everything they contain will be preserved. That isn't particularly mysterious. To get this into a Reaper, of course, requires that not just genetic data are used, but that the brains are....and here we come to the cut lines....analyzed. Yes, extracting the core of what a species has been, including culture etc, from genetic information is nonsense. It gets mystical because the word "essence" is used, implying there there is such a thing which is more than mere information.

Exactly. It becomes mystical because of the terms used. I didn't hear anywhere mentioned that the Reapers examine brains and convert that into computer data to inhabit the synthetic body. If they had, it wouldn't be mystical. It would be dubious science. Instead they use non-science, non-technical terms to describe what happens, which makes it mystical.

The "destructive analysis" was mentioned in the cut lines, which are still in the ME2 data but have been replaced with the mystical version.

I see the point you're trying to make. In this example, mysticism is explicitly invoked by the term, in Legion's example, it's implicitly invoked through the context and the sacrifice theme. I admit it's easier to work around the latter, and I wouldn't have a problem with it could I infer a technical explanation for the impossibility of Legion just making a copy of himself and disseminating that.

[Dr_Extrem]

David7204 wrote...

Oh look. Yet another set of posts arguing that Shepard's body will burn up because 'Even smaller meteorites burn up completely' (This itself is completely untrue, although most meteoroids burn up, a significant number of them don't. We even have a name for those that survive to earth - meteorites. So the implication that meteoroids can't survive atmospheric entry is utter nonsense.)

Anyway, back to my point. Straight from Wikipedia -

"Meteoroids travel around the Sun in a variety of orbits and at various velocities. The fastest ones move at about 42 kilometers per second through space in the vicinity of Earth's orbit. The Earth travels at about 29.6 kilometers per second. Thus, when meteoroids meet Earth's atmosphere head-on (which only occurs when meteors are in a retrograde orbit such as the Eta Aquarids, which are associated with the retrograde Halley's Comet), the combined speed may reach about 71 kilometers per second. Meteoroids moving through Earth's orbital space average about 20 km/s."

20 kilometers per second. Is Shepard's body traveling at a speed of 20 kilometers per second towards the planet when the Normandy blows up? Is Shepard's body traveling at a speed of 8,000 meters per second (as the Space Shuttle does) when the Normandy blows up? No. As I've pointed out countless times, the only speed Shepard's body is going to have is going to the speed accumulated from the planet's gravity.

Obadiah wrote...
...A minute acceleration over hundred of thousands of miles to a planet...

"Hundreds of thousands of miles." Are you kidding me? The only Earth only has a radius of about 6,350 kilometers, or about 4,000 miles. The edge of space is usually considered to be 100 kilometers, or about 60 miles. We can clearly see the how close the planet is throughout the introduction.

very good point.

it is clear, that shepard would not survive the impact on the planet. but objects in orbit around earth - like satilites or the iss are very fast. this comparision does not work. 

in that hight, there are still 98% of earths gravity pulling you back to earth.you have to work with centrifugal force, to counter the garvity of earth. in the case of the iss, you need 28000 km/h to biiuld up enough centrifugal force to "immitate" zero-g - it is the sweet spot, where both forces, centrifugal and gravity are even and neutralise each other.

shepard is not that fast ... maybe only several houndred km/h. the friction caused by this reentry-speed, is not that high. the impact force would kill shepard - even if the suit was not damaged but thats all. if the angle is right, the friction is kept to a minimum.

what is really problematic, is the atmosphere of the planet ... and what i dont get ... is that snow on alchera? ... in that atmoshere and the temperatures, any water would be bound to ammonia (hygroscopic) and both would build a solution (low melting point). the water would not build snow. the melting point of 30% ammonia in water is @ arp. -84°C.


i can let this slide but its an example of sloppy research. sci-fi is not easy to write ... you need to know what you are writing about and how stuff works.

Modifié par Dr_Extrem, 20 février 2013 - 04:41 .

[Mouton_Alpha]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Cyberfrog81 wrote...

"I must go to them" is a technical explanation for why "copying" no longer means "copying"?

"Insufficient data. Direct dissemination of data required." (little shaky here, but it's very close to this)

That doesn't sound mystical to me.

The phrase itself is not mystical. What is mystical is that suddenly his software personality has gained some magical element that cannot be simply copied - aka "soul" -  despite the game asserting repeatedly that Geth are software. Now, unless software is something else in MEU than it is in real world - and there was no sign of that - it can be disseminated and analysed at will without having to destroy the source.

[Ieldra]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
He says "Personality dissemination is required" But that's no explanation. It's an assertion of the necessity.

Are you implying that unless a technical explanation is given in fiction we have no choice but to interpet it mystically?

No. I am saying that if the context contains a mystical allegory, there is no explanation offered, and no explanation can easily be inferred, the situation suggests that the mystical allegory has somehow a direct in-world relevance, that we are called to treat the allegory as the explanation.

I am considering the possibility that it's just lazy writing, but with the sacrifice theme so prevalent in the story, it's hard to believe the writers didn't see the connection.

@Mouton Alpha:
You're explaining this so much more concisely than I do. Thanks.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 20 février 2013 - 04:43 .

[CronoDragoon]

Okay, I think I have a summary that will work for everyone:

I am by no means disputing that the event occurs as it did because the writers wanted the sacrifice theme to apply. That is obvious to me and relatively uncontroversial: working to make the technical sequence of events apply to a larger theme is how many stories are crafted.

But to me, saying that the thematic importance of the scene dictated the event to such a degree that the technical explanation doesn't make sense is different than saying the event is mystical. The game still frames the event in technical terms. The way it does this just happens to not make sense. And I agree with Mouton that the technical explanation is confusing, to the point where the player becomes suspicious that the literal interpretation of the event is secondary in the minds of the writers to the thematic interpretation.

But here is the distinction for me: in order to make the Reaperization process non-mystical, you would have to completely change the explanation. For Legion, all it requires is one missing piece of technical info that explains to you why he cannot simply copy his personality. There is a piece of the puzzle missing which is why I characterize it as under-explained; contrasted with Reaperization, where there isn't any information you could give me that would demystify it unless you also discarded all the words used like "minds" and "essence" and recharacterized them as well.

Reaperization is explicitly mystical, whereas Legion's death is not. In order to convince me Legion's death was mystical, you'd have to convince me that the technical explanation was intentionally nonsensical.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 20 février 2013 - 04:58 .

[Ieldra]

Now, I think there is such a thing as being accidentally evocative of mysticism. It's quite as bad as the intentional variant because you can't see the difference. However, I possibly wouldn't have made an issue of it in Legion's case had Shepard's sacrifice in Synthesis not set a more explicit example.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 20 février 2013 - 05:12 .

[humes spork]

CronoDragoon wrote...

But to me, saying that the thematic importance of the scene dictated the event to such a degree that the technical explanation doesn't make sense is different than saying the event is mystical. The game still frames the event in technical terms. The way it does this just happens to not make sense. And I agree with Mouton that the technical explanation is confusing, to the point where the player becomes suspicious that the literal interpretation of the event is secondary in the minds of the writers to the thematic interpretation.

To this I would add, first, the use of technobabble does not necessarily imply plausibility or internal consistency, which is what you must assume to state "technical" exposition is of a higher order than "mystical" exposition. I've seen way too many episodes of Star Trek; Voyager to have any presumption otherwise. It can be, and often is, as meaningless and inconsistent as "a wizard did it".

Second, to craft any kind of objective, quantifiable argument that "mystical" exposition overshadows "technical" exposition, or that the latter is a higher order of exposition than the former, you must first assume "mystical" exposition excludes the "technical". Or, more simply put, to say that an event is exposited in "mystical" terms must be mystical, that event must be only exposited in "mystical" terms, and no "technical" exposition is possible. Otherwise, you're crafting a false dilemma. They are not exclusive, which precludes any kind of universal, objective argument on this topic and renders the entire exercise a matter of opinion, which is to say subjective.

Modifié par humes spork, 20 février 2013 - 05:22 .

[CronoDragoon]

Here is the key question for me: did the writers intend to suggest that the reason Legion had to disseminate his personality directly was because of his soul, here soul being defined in the mystical or religious way we understand it. Or did the writers intend to suggest that it was because of Legion's soul as the character arc has defined it, meaning sentience/basic rights.

If the writers wanted to suggest an actual ethereal entity representative of Legion was blocking the transfer, then no doubt it's mystical. But if they just wanted to complete his character arc and dictated technical events within the necessary framework to make that happen, then I don't think that's mystical. To me, mystical and metaphorical explanations are different, because while the former is still an attempt to explain an event within that universe, the latter is an explanation based outside of the story's universe/cosmos.

But now I've confused myself, because by identifying Legion's ethereal or religious soul as the reason why the transfer was blocked, haven't I take it out of the realm of the mystical, if we define mystical events as events that defy explanation?

At this point, I think we would need to clearly define "literal" "technical" "mystical" "metaphorical" "thematic" to progress. Sometimes we've been using some of those terms interchangeably (including myself) when they kinda aren't.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 20 février 2013 - 05:28 .

[humes spork]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Here is the key question for me: did the writers intend to suggest that the reason Legion had to disseminate his personality directly was because of his soul, here soul being defined in the mystical or religious way we understand it. Or did the writers intend to suggest that it was because of Legion's soul as the character arc has defined it, meaning sentience/basic rights.

Neither was how I interpreted it.

I interpreted Legion's "problem" was that it attempted to simply upload the relevant code into the consensus, but it failed to execute. To execute it, Legion had to disseminate its runtimes into the consensus, thanks to "the geth consensus standardizes all geth runtimes in real time at light speed", whatever the hell that means, that we were told about back in ME2 that nobody really questions. Legion was just talking in shorthand because Admiral Kilgore'Ripper vas YeeHaw! was up in space having himself a grand old geth turkey shoot and there wasn't exactly time to have a lengthy, technical conversation about the subject. 'Cause you know, a crapload of dead geth are totally worth five minutes' worth of technobabble.

And God knows, considering the tenor and content of BSN right now, half the people griping about this plot point as-is had that happen instead would be on BSN griping about "Y LEGUN N SHIPURD HAB BIG LONG TALK WHILE QUEERUNS BLOWED UP ALL GETH! PLOT HOLE RETCON ARTISM INEGRY!".

Modifié par humes spork, 20 février 2013 - 05:49 .

[CronoDragoon]

humes spork wrote...
Neither was how I interpreted it.

I interpreted Legion's "problem" was that it attempted to simply upload the relevant code into the consensus, but it failed to execute. To execute it, Legion had to disseminate its runtimes into the consensus, thanks to "the geth consensus standardizes all geth runtimes in real time at light speed", whatever the hell that means, that we were told about back in ME2 that nobody really questions. Legion was just talking in shorthand because Admiral Kilgore'Ripper vas YeeHaw! was up in space having himself a grand old geth turkey shoot and there wasn't exactly time to have a lengthy, technical conversation about the subject.

So, originally, he was only trying to copy and integrate the Reaper code into existing geth runtimes, which failed?

In that case, the relevant piece of info missing would be "you cannot copy geth runtimes"? Because otherwise why wouldn't be just copy his runtimes and disseminate the copies?

[Renmiri1]

crimzontearz wrote...

Well then....the sad part is that this will lead to a halt in the progression of the MEU....or worse a retcon/handwave/reboot

Why mac and Casey? Goddamn WHY go from a pretty had Sci Fi scale setting to a borderline Eternia setting

Ok I am bitter this morning

same -.-

[humes spork]

CronoDragoon wrote...

In that case, the relevant piece of info missing would be "you cannot copy geth runtimes"? Because otherwise why wouldn't be just copy his runtimes and disseminate the copies?

That would be the most parsimonious inference from what Legion says and does during that scene. He's not exactly uploading the code upgrades first and foremost, then talks about how copying the code is insufficient after the fact, for craps and giggles.

How, or even if, geth guntimes replicate is never exposited, that I know of. One would assume they either do not, or cannot, but that's just an assumption. That certainly explains why Legion is in a hurry to upload and execute the code, circumstances considered.

Modifié par humes spork, 20 février 2013 - 05:56 .

[Sejborg]

Why is it problem that Legion gains something as mystical as a soul? Clearly that is the point of the geth storyline, that they gain true sentient understanding and become more than just machines.

Legion can't be copied because a copy wouldn't be Legion but a just copy of Legion.

Just as a clone you, won't be you, but a just clone of you.

Modifié par Sejborg, 20 février 2013 - 06:15 .

[Dr_Extrem]

Sejborg wrote...

Why is it problem that Legion gains something as mystical as a soul? Clearly that is the point of the geth storyline, that they gain true sentient understanding and become than just machines.

Legion can't be copied because a copy wouldn't be Legion but a just copy of Legion.

Just as a clone you, won't be you, but a just clone of you.

because legion is still geth and geth are still software? 

or does a geth loose its soul if it transefers itself into a quariens suit or mobile platform?

[Sejborg]

Dr_Extrem wrote...

Sejborg wrote...

Why is it problem that Legion gains something as mystical as a soul? Clearly that is the point of the geth storyline, that they gain true sentient understanding and become than just machines.

Legion can't be copied because a copy wouldn't be Legion but a just copy of Legion.

Just as a clone you, won't be you, but a just clone of you.

because legion is still geth and geth are still software? 

or does a geth loose its soul if it transefers itself into a quariens suit or mobile platform?

Clearly the geth are more than just software by the end of their storyline. "Does this unit have a soul?" and all that supernatural stuff.

The second question. I would put it this way. The point is you can't copy a soul.

[Dr_Extrem]

Sejborg wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

Sejborg wrote...

Why is it problem that Legion gains something as mystical as a soul? Clearly that is the point of the geth storyline, that they gain true sentient understanding and become than just machines.

Legion can't be copied because a copy wouldn't be Legion but a just copy of Legion.

Just as a clone you, won't be you, but a just clone of you.

because legion is still geth and geth are still software? 

or does a geth loose its soul if it transefers itself into a quariens suit or mobile platform?

Clearly the geth are more than just software by the end of their storyline. "Does this unit have a soul?" and all that supernatural stuff.

The second question. I would put it this way. The point is you can't copy a soul.

but tranfer it? ... you are contradicting yourself.


the geth are still software - thats a fact. what changed is, that they are now unique and different outside of their perspective.

[CronoDragoon]

Sejborg wrote...

Why is it problem that Legion gains something as mystical as a soul? Clearly that is the point of the geth storyline, that they gain true sentient understanding and become more than just machines.

I made a point to differentiate a "mystical" soul as one understood religiously: an ethereal unit that, for example, goes to heaven or is located in a non-corporeal "mind". To suggest that is different than the soul you are talking about.

[Sejborg]

Dr_Extrem wrote...

Sejborg wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

Sejborg wrote...

Why is it problem that Legion gains something as mystical as a soul? Clearly that is the point of the geth storyline, that they gain true sentient understanding and become than just machines.

Legion can't be copied because a copy wouldn't be Legion but a just copy of Legion.

Just as a clone you, won't be you, but a just clone of you.

because legion is still geth and geth are still software? 

or does a geth loose its soul if it transefers itself into a quariens suit or mobile platform?

Clearly the geth are more than just software by the end of their storyline. "Does this unit have a soul?" and all that supernatural stuff.

The second question. I would put it this way. The point is you can't copy a soul.

but tranfer it? ... you are contradicting yourself.


the geth are still software - thats a fact. what changed is, that they are now unique and different outside of their perspective.

I am not contradicting myself. You must have trouble understanding my point I think. 

[Dr_Extrem]

Sejborg wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

Sejborg wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

Sejborg wrote...

Why is it problem that Legion gains something as mystical as a soul? Clearly that is the point of the geth storyline, that they gain true sentient understanding and become than just machines.

Legion can't be copied because a copy wouldn't be Legion but a just copy of Legion.

Just as a clone you, won't be you, but a just clone of you.

because legion is still geth and geth are still software? 

or does a geth loose its soul if it transefers itself into a quariens suit or mobile platform?

Clearly the geth are more than just software by the end of their storyline. "Does this unit have a soul?" and all that supernatural stuff.

The second question. I would put it this way. The point is you can't copy a soul.

but tranfer it? ... you are contradicting yourself.


the geth are still software - thats a fact. what changed is, that they are now unique and different outside of their perspective.

I am not contradicting myself. You must have trouble understanding my point I think. 

and you have trouble accepting the nature of the geth and the events before and after the geth were updated.

[humes spork]

CronoDragoon wrote...

To suggest that is different than the soul you are talking about.

To add to that, it's the same sense of "soul" to which Shepard refers at the end of ME2, when choosing to destroy the Collector base, by the way.