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[ruggly]

humes spork wrote...

ruggly wrote...

Said writer did not support it at all

I hate to burst bubbles, but Higher Paid made the right call.  The geth's "impartial curiosity" of organics directly contradicts the fact they refuse contact with organics, have so few common needs and interests the geth see no point in direct interaction, and actually go so far as to destroy organics who try to make peaceful contact. Plot-wise, that's a complete non-starter save setting up the geth as enigmatic antagonists as they were in ME1.

The geth needed "some" in-universe reason to make peaceful contact with organics for the first time in three centuries, and the implication the geth's "impartial curiosity" may be developing into the realm of the irrational typified by Legion's singular interest in Shepard did the trick. Otherwise, the character would be a flavorless token squadmate that leaves the audience wondering why they're even present in the first place other than inclusivity for its own sake -- you know, Jacob.

EDI already fills the Pinnochio role, even in ME2, after all.

None bursted.  I understand why they wrote Legion into the role he takes.  Just pointing out that the writer did not agree.

Modifié par ruggly, 20 février 2013 - 08:33 .

[GreyLycanTrope]

humes spork wrote...
I hate to burst bubbles, but Higher Paid made the right call.  The geth's "impartial curiosity" of organics directly contradicts the fact they refuse contact with organics, have so few common needs and interests the geth see no point in direct interaction, and actually go so far as to destroy organics who try to make peaceful contact. Plot-wise, that's a complete non-starter save setting up the geth as enigmatic antagonists as they were in ME1.

The geth needed "some" in-universe reason to make peaceful contact with organics for the first time in three centuries, and the implication the geth's "impartial curiosity" may be developing into the realm of the irrational typified by Legion's singular interest in Shepard did the trick. Otherwise, the character would be a flavorless token squadmate that leaves the audience wondering why they're even present in the first place other than inclusivity for its own sake -- you know, Jacob.

EDI already fills the Pinnochio role, even in ME2, after all.

I don't beleive that's accurate. When did the Geth destroy anyone trying to attempt peaceful communication?

Modifié par Greylycantrope, 20 février 2013 - 08:34 .

[o Ventus]

mvaning wrote...

Writing a good story involves writing and rewriting multiple times.

Which is all well and good.

But when the already-established story (geth in ME2) is almost completely and directly contradicted by the new story (geth in ME3), the person or people writing the story would do well to read their own material before generating more. 

Even if what is new is good, it's stupid if it renders what came before totally moot.

[nos_astra]

Greylycantrope wrote...
I don't beleive that's accurate. When did the Geth destroy anyone trying to attempt peaceful communication?

I think there's a codex entry about this or something. They did destroy any ship that came too close in an attempt to contact them.

[GreyLycanTrope]

klarabella wrote...

Greylycantrope wrote...
I don't beleive that's accurate. When did the Geth destroy anyone trying to attempt peaceful communication?

I think there's a codex entry about this or something. They did destroy any ship that came too close in an attempt to contact them.

I recall a derelict ship filled with husks that was intended as a warning, but husk creation is Reaper Tech, something unique to the Heretics not the main Geth concensus.

[CronoDragoon]

Dr_Extrem wrote...
there should not have been a call at all. rewriting characters to fit to the story is cheap.

This happens all the time in the creative process. The point of writing a story isn't to always stick to the initial vision but to make the best story you can. Now, in this case we have something slightly different wherein a character (and species) is rewritten in conflict with an earlier, already published work. But that the geth have been rewritten from their more boring, stereotypical counterparts is not the issue, it seems. If the issue is Higher Up changing the story against the wishes of the original writer, then what exactly do people think editors do?

[CronoDragoon]

o Ventus wrote...

mvaning wrote...

Writing a good story involves writing and rewriting multiple times.

Which is all well and good.

But when the already-established story (geth in ME2) is almost completely and directly contradicted by the new story (geth in ME3), the person or people writing the story would do well to read their own material before generating more. 

Even if what is new is good, it's stupid if it renders what came before totally moot.

Do you feel the same about ME1 and ME2 geth?

(edited to be less snarky)

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 20 février 2013 - 08:42 .

[humes spork]

Greylycantrope wrote...

I don't beleive that's accurate. When did the Geth destroy anyone trying to attempt peaceful communication?

The ME1/2 codex entries on the geth, coupled with dialog from Tali about the species in ME1. That I can name offhand.

[o Ventus]

No, I don't.

How do the geth in ME2 contradict the geth in ME1? The geth in ME1 didn't even HAVE a story besides worshipping Sovereign and their connection to the quarians. ME2 didn't throw away these plot points, nor did it contradict them.

Edited 4 edit.

Modifié par o Ventus, 20 février 2013 - 08:44 .

[humes spork]

o Ventus wrote...

How do the geth in ME2 contradict the geth in ME1? The geth in ME1 didn't even HAVE a story besides worshipping Sovereign and their connection to the quarians. ME2 didn't throw away these plot points, nor did it contradict them.

How do the geth in ME3 contradict the geth in ME2?

[nos_astra]

humes spork wrote...

ruggly wrote...

Said writer did not support it at all

I hate to burst bubbles, but Higher Paid made the right call.  The geth's "impartial curiosity" of organics directly contradicts the fact they refuse contact with organics, have so few common needs and interests the geth see no point in direct interaction, and actually go so far as to destroy organics who try to make peaceful contact. Plot-wise, that's a complete non-starter save setting up the geth as enigmatic antagonists as they were in ME1.

The geth needed "some" in-universe reason to make peaceful contact with organics for the first time in three centuries, and the implication the geth's "impartial curiosity" may be developing into the realm of the irrational typified by Legion's singular interest in Shepard did the trick. Otherwise, the character would be a flavorless token squadmate that leaves the audience wondering why they're even present in the first place other than inclusivity for its own sake -- you know, Jacob.

I can't quite follow you.

The geth could have been written differently. They are software. They don't feel. The Reapers could have been enough of an incentive to have a faction of the geth break lose and allow contact with organics ... without randomly tacking emotions on.

And actually, every squadmate in ME2 save Miranda leaves me wondering why they're even present in the first place. 

Modifié par klarabella, 20 février 2013 - 09:03 .

[GreyLycanTrope]

humes spork wrote...

Greylycantrope wrote...

I don't beleive that's accurate. When did the Geth destroy anyone trying to attempt peaceful communication?

The ME1/2 codex entries on the geth, coupled with dialog from Tali about the species in ME1. That I can name offhand.

From the codex:

"The geth are a humanoid race of networked A.I.s. They were created by the quarians 300 years ago as tools of labor and war. When the geth showed signs of  self-evolution, the quarians attempted to exterminate them. The geth won the resulting war. This example has led to legal, systematic repression of artificial intelligences in galactic society.

The geth possess a unique distributed intelligence. An individual has rudimentary animal instincts, but as their numbers and proximity  increase, the apparent intelligence of each individual improves. In groups, they can reason, analyze situations, and use tactics as well as any organic race.

Geth space is located at the trailing end of the Perseus Arm, beyond the lawless Terminus Systems. The Perseus Veil, an obscuring "dark nebula" of opaque gas and dust, lies between their space and the Terminus Systems"

I'm seeing no mention of destroying ship who ventured into their system. Unless you had a different entry in mind.

Tali certinaly says every organic who tried to contact them was killed, but I wouldn't call her an unbiased source, even Patrick Weekes said he wrote her to have an initial prejudice.

Modifié par Greylycantrope, 20 février 2013 - 08:52 .

[o Ventus]

humes spork wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

How do the geth in ME2 contradict the geth in ME1? The geth in ME1 didn't even HAVE a story besides worshipping Sovereign and their connection to the quarians. ME2 didn't throw away these plot points, nor did it contradict them.

How do the geth in ME3 contradict the geth in ME2?

The geth (through Legion) in ME2 were shown as being perfectly comfortable with their own current status of existence, building their Dyson sphere. They utterly refuse to take advantage of foreign technologies for their own benefit (Legion be commends Shepard on blowing the base). The geth are machines. They acknowledge this and behave in a machine-like fashion. Legion shows no emotion to Shepard outside the incredibly awkward talks about the armor.

The geth in ME3 (ESPECIALLY through Legion) want to repent for their actions in the Morning War. The geth (again, especially through Legion) are more than happy to use Reaper technology, even after the fighting stops. The geth (through Legion) also exhibit sins of emotion and autonomy, which was never present in ME2.

Modifié par o Ventus, 20 février 2013 - 08:55 .

[CronoDragoon]

klarabella wrote...
The geth could have been written differently without tacking some sort of emotion on them for reasons. The geth are software. They don't feel. The Reapers could have been enough of an incentive to have a faction of the geth break lose and allow contact ... without randomly tacking emotions on.

And acutally, every squadmate in ME2 save Miranda leaves me wondering why they're even present in the first place. 

I'm not sure I agree with E'toile that obsession must mean emotion. All I got from Legion in ME2 was that the geth were especially interested in Shepard and how he functions. I see the N7 shoulder armor as being indicative of ME3's claim (supported by geth philosophy, by the way) that synthetics strive towards perfect understanding. The N7 armor is representative of Legion and the geth's interest in understanding Shepard.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 20 février 2013 - 08:56 .

[CronoDragoon]

o Ventus wrote...

How do the geth in ME2 contradict the geth in ME1? The geth in ME1 didn't even HAVE a story besides worshipping Sovereign and their connection to the quarians. 

It is a big deal that in Mass Effect 2 you are told that only 5% of the geth chose to worship Sovereign and kill organics for tech gifts. In Mass Effect 1 there is no notion, as you say, of anything about the geth except they are servants of Sovereign. Unless you know for a fact that they had the geth of ME2 in mind while designing ME1, I am inclined to believe this is a significant rewrite of the race, similar to the significant rewrite of Cerberus.

[nos_astra]

CronoDragoon wrote...
I'm not sure I agree with E'toile that obsession must mean emotion. All I got from Legion in ME2 was that the geth were especially interested in Shepard and how he functions. I see the N7 shoulder armor as being indicative of ME3's claim (supported by geth philosophy, by the way) that synthetics strive towards perfect understanding. The N7 armor is representative of Legion and the geth's interest in understanding Shepard.

Why would they suddenly strive towards perfect understanding? They used to be quite content not to understand them.

I feel that's exactly the hard to grasp line the writing has crossed. From specific reasons for their actions (technical reasons to follow the Reapers --> code/virus) to vague ideas (perfect understanding of organics for the sake of it) fueled by ... what? It ultimately leads to the idea that AIs aren't truly alive unless they have this special something that isn't really part of programming and can't be copied or preserved. 

[RedBeardJim]

CronoDragoon wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

How do the geth in ME2 contradict the geth in ME1? The geth in ME1 didn't even HAVE a story besides worshipping Sovereign and their connection to the quarians. 

It is a big deal that in Mass Effect 2 you are told that only 5% of the geth chose to worship Sovereign and kill organics for tech gifts. In Mass Effect 1 there is no notion, as you say, of anything about the geth except they are servants of Sovereign. Unless you know for a fact that they had the geth of ME2 in mind while designing ME1, I am inclined to believe this is a significant rewrite of the race, similar to the significant rewrite of Cerberus.

The ME1 --> ME2 change is not, to my mind, so much a "rewrite" or "contradiction" as it is an *expansion*. As Ventus says, we get very little real information on the geth in ME1, apart from their origins and the fact that we see them fighting for Saren/Sovereign. Nothing presented in ME2 changes any of that, just adds to it in a way that I at least found plausible.

Cerberus, by contrast, is more of a rewrite as we are presented with them in ME1 as a "rogue Alliance black-ops group" which then changes to a "human-centric terrorist organization" with deep financial and organizational backing in ME2. You can handwave the change in lore (as the wiki does) by saying that Admiral Kahoku was simply wrong about them, but there was a definite *change* there.

[Reorte]

The whole problem with emotionless geth is that they simply won't do anything that they're not actively forced into (by being reprogrammed). With no emotion there's not even a self preservation instinct; lack of emotion and intelligence simply don't work together. Even a hardwired self preservation mechanism is not really any different from how it works in organics.

[CronoDragoon]

klarabella wrote...
Why would they suddenly strive towards perfect understanding? They used to be quite content not to understand them.

As early as when? Certainly as early as Mass Effect 2 they are interested in Shepard; at this point Legion says that the interest is due to the fact that Shepard is the first organic to contact them, or some such.

I feel that's exactly the hard to grasp line the writing has crossed. From specific reasons for their actions (technical reasons to follow the Reapers --> code/virus) to vague ideas (perfect understanding of organics for the sake of it) fueled by ... what? It ultimately leads to the idea that AIs aren't truly alive unless they have this special something that isn't really part of programming and can't be copied or preserved. 

The understanding of organics is an outgrowth of their own personal quest to perfect themselves. Perhaps they realized that for perfect understanding of themselves to be possible, they would have to analyze any connection that they themselves had in relation to the rest of the universe. I don't buy the argument that in ME3 the geth are transformed into wanting perfect understanding of organics and nothing else.

[humes spork]

Greylycantrope wrote...

humes spork wrote...

Greylycantrope wrote...

I don't beleive that's accurate. When did the Geth destroy anyone trying to attempt peaceful communication?

The ME1/2 codex entries on the geth, coupled with dialog from Tali about the species in ME1. That I can name offhand.

From the codex:

If you're pulling that from the wiki, that's the ME3 codex entry.

They did that, and it's rather frustrating.

[CronoDragoon]

RedBeardJim wrote...

The ME1 --> ME2 change is not, to my mind, so much a "rewrite" or "contradiction" as it is an *expansion*. 

I can say that about the ME2 --> ME3 change as well, since it disregards notions of intent. There is nothing in Mass Effect 1 that suggests they had the true geth vs. heretic geth distinction in mind.

[humes spork]

o Ventus wrote...

The geth (through Legion) in ME2 were shown as being perfectly comfortable with their own current status of existence, building their Dyson sphere. They utterly refuse to take advantage of foreign technologies for their own benefit (Legion be commends Shepard on blowing the base). The geth are machines. They acknowledge this and behave in a machine-like fashion. Legion shows no emotion to Shepard outside the incredibly awkward talks about the armor.

The geth in ME3 (ESPECIALLY through Legion) want to repent for their actions in the Morning War. The geth (again, especially through Legion) are more than happy to use Reaper technology, even after the fighting stops. The geth (through Legion) also exhibit sins of emotion and autonomy, which was never present in ME2.

The geth are explicitly exposited by Legion in ME2 of having extreme curiosity of organics and organic behavior, going so far as to screw with them to see what they do (the entire point of the geth's little "joke" on the salarians, that Legion recalls). This is not rational, and contradictory, to their extreme isolationist nature and little reason to interact with organics.

Neither is Legion's characterization in ME2 of having an irrational interest in Shepard.  Nor is their explicitly exposited caretaking of, and reverence for, Rannoch and other quarian colony worlds that Legion rationalizes (another irrational behavior) as memorializing and respect for the dead (both irrational behaviors).

That characterization is already there as of ME2. That does not contradict ME3; in fact, it sets the stage and foreshadows the events of ME3. Now, if ME2's characterization of the geth doesn't contradict ME1's, and ME3's doesn't actually contradict ME2's, then what's the problem?

[Sejborg]

Obviously the geth evolved some sort of curiosity or sapience. It was that curiosity that started the morning war after all. Is it impossible to believe that the geth could evolve further?

Modifié par Sejborg, 20 février 2013 - 09:36 .

[GreyLycanTrope]

humes spork wrote...
If you're pulling that from the wiki, that's the ME3 codex entry.

They did that, and it's rather frustrating.

Actually it's the same codex we have in ME1

[humes spork]

Greylycantrope wrote...

humes spork wrote...
If you're pulling that from the wiki, that's the ME3 codex entry.

They did that, and it's rather frustrating.

Actually it's the same codex we have in ME1

Ah, then it's the secondary codex entries then. Geth: Culture, to wit.