706 réponses à ce sujet

[Indy_S]

AlanC9 wrote...

What's the cutoff for being a forefather?

It's somewhere between a dad that plays golf and a dad that doesn't.

[78stonewobble]

ruggly wrote...

mvaning wrote...

78stonewobble wrote...

Well to be honest that is more the "fault" of the recipients of the story.

I don't agree.   Even the name "Lazarus" is an ode to a story in the bible about a man named "Lazarus" who was resurrected by Jesus.   It is not at all a stretch of the imagination to see a religious allegory.  Especially if the name, itself, alludes to a religious story.

Not to mention that you roll around with a 12 person crew as well.

Well this is where I say it is my responcibility, as the recipient, to recognize that the mind have a habit of seeing patterns where the is none and make faulty connections between things that are not connected, to entirely dismiss the allegory/connection.

Ie. I don't go around shouting hallelujah everytime a comatose patient wakes up.

Modifié par 78stonewobble, 21 février 2013 - 09:49 .

[steinvegard]

StarcloudSWG wrote...

Destroy is comprehensible. The "Intelligence" is aware of the possibility that the Reapers might go rogue on it or deviate from their purpose. The solution; install a killswitch in the Reapers, the technology they use to create monsters, and Reaper-based code.

Control is comprehensible, and is also foreshadowed; Destructive analysis to upload Shepard's consciousness (but why can't Shepard remain alive using a non-destructive analysis like in the Geth mission oh right artistic integrity) to replace/overwrite the "Intelligence".

Synthesis? "Use your organic energy (nonsense concept, e=mc2 does not care about the form the mass takes) and the essence of who you are (what the hell is that? Define please. Oh, you can't since you don't want to use the word soul? Uh huh.) and instantly (!) create organic circuitry (!!) in all life (!!!) in the galaxy. (e=mc2, and there isn't enough m or e to spontaneously generate this in the entire universe, not to mention the problems discriminating between matter that's 'alive' and matter that is not alive.)

This just helps to show how incredebly artifical and contrived the choices at the end are. Dilemmas should grow naturally from the story and the circimstances in it, not be squeezed forcibly in to it because someone mistakes making people feel bad for depht. The pseudointellectuallity about it is what offends me the most. Someone has seen other endings that have depht and then have just replicated the superficial trappings of those endings in the hope of achiveing the same. They have the look, but not the substance.

The lack of actual thought and reflection put into the endings are staggering.

[mvaning]

78stonewobble wrote...


Well this is where I say it is my responcibility, as the recipient, to recognize that the mind have a habit of seeing patterns where the is none and make faulty connections between things that are not connected, to entirely dismiss the allegory/connection.

Ie. I don't go around shouting hallelujah everytime a comatose patient wakes up.

I think Bioware made the pattern extremely clear and cut and dry.   You don't have to believe that the allegory exists but regardless of that, it does.   Do you actualy think that bioware coincidentally choose a well known name out of the bible that also reflects the namesake's exact topic?    Unlikely.   If they didn't want it to be an allegory, then they would have used a different name.   

Remember, this isn't one person writing this stuff.   This is a team of writers and ME2 was well developed (IMO).   So it is unlikely that this sort of literary reference would get published without the knowledge that this would be recieved as a reference to the namesake's origin.  (I.E--the story of Lazarus)

Modifié par mvaning, 21 février 2013 - 02:49 .

[3DandBeyond]

LineHolder wrote...

steinvegard wrote...

This just helps to show how incredebly artifical and contrived the choices at the end are. Dilemmas should grow naturally from the story and the circimstances in it, not be squeezed forcibly in to it because someone mistakes making people feel bad for depht. The pseudointellectuallity about it is what offends me the most. Someone has seen other endings that have depht and then have just replicated the superficial trappings of those endings in the hope of achiveing the same. They have the look, but not the substance.

The lack of actual thought and reflection put into the endings are staggering.

Well said.

Exactly.  In fact, it comes off as lacking in any real philosophy that exists within the story-if the idea was that synthetics truly would always either through intent or accident, rebel against their creators and then eventually destroy all organic life, then why present the geth as they did?  If it really is an intact idea that synthetics that evolve will supercede their creators (an idea that I don't think is inevitable, because the definition of supercede is really open to interpretation), then it's a real stretch to conclude that the intent will exist to destroy those beneath them.  In fact, the idea that they will somehow become more "perfect" or intelligent than their creators then it would be way more logical to assume they would see and do things better than organics have done. 

And the fact is, as imperfect as we are, we don't want to annihilate everything that is "beneath" us.  We may kill some fish, but we also have people that work hard to find ways for us to NOT kill all fish.  If synthetics supercede us, that implies certain things, knowledge being one of them, but logic also an intrinsic part of what they are.  There's no logic in synthetics just killing off all organics-self defense is one thing, but that doesn't meant they'd have to kill trees and butterflies in order to save their lives.

The writers took endings from other stories and then had no idea how to make them fit Mass Effect.  So, they created really abbreviated endings that could mean almost anything.  When fans said "WTF", they decided they had to figure out what the endings actually meant and created the EC, mostly based on what fans speculated that the original endings meant-mostly things they wished BW would get rid of or change.  And the things they expanded upon with the EC didn't even really address the major complaints in a real way-they used ideas fans threw out there, but did not like.

Everything about the ending(s) just comes off as super silly.  They don't fit this story because they belong to other stories.

[3DandBeyond]

mvaning wrote...

78stonewobble wrote...


Well this is where I say it is my responcibility, as the recipient, to recognize that the mind have a habit of seeing patterns where the is none and make faulty connections between things that are not connected, to entirely dismiss the allegory/connection.

Ie. I don't go around shouting hallelujah everytime a comatose patient wakes up.

I think Bioware made the pattern extremely clear and cut and dry.   You don't have to believe that the allegory exists but regardless of that, it does.   Do you actualy think that bioware coincidentally choose a well known name out of the bible that also reflects the namesake's exact topic?    Unlikely.   If they didn't want it to be an allegory, then they would have used a different name.   

Remember, this isn't one person writing this stuff.   This is a team of writers and ME2 was well developed (IMO).   So it is unlikely that this sort of literary reference would get published without the knowledge that this would be recieved as a reference to the namesake's origin.  (I.E--the story of Lazarus)

Actually, Casey Hudson (there's a video out there of it), said in one interview that they chose the name Shepard because of the astronaut Alan Shepard and because he was a hero.  It was intentional and does fit just what Shepard does.  This was a great tale until the end of ME3, even given the flaws that existed especially in ME3.  Shepard does imply two things-first American in space (ok, perhaps this has less meaning to some, but the name fits two categories so they went with Shepard and not Gagarin).  A Shepherd of course looks after his/her flock, and biblically after the lost lamb.  Shepard in Mass Effect was kind of a magnet for lost people.  Even the name of the comic book with Liara looking for Shepard's body basically tells what ME was about up until the end of ME3.  Redemption.  I half think that the last DLC (or even MP maps) will be called Redemption.

ME2 made it far more clear than the other games in that this redemption was partly about certain people, but then ME3 went even bigger and allowed for the redemption of whole races of people.  In ME2, you had all those people that Shepard did loyalty missions with who could be redeemed.  Most of them were living different lives and were not really even living.  Take Jack as a really obvious example.  She became a real person again.  But even someone like Kasumi, who was living stuck in the past and tied to her dead love, finds a new life and lives again.

In ME3, you go bigger.  Shepard can help Mordin and thus the Salarians find redemption, and in the process can also help the Krogan find it.  And the geth and quarians as well.  Then, if you do certain things, even TIM can find it when he shoots himself after realizing what he has done.  But when you get to those ending choices, that's all abandoned.  Neither of the choices have enough of an explanation, nor any really credible explanation in order to consider them to be good choices.  The fact that it comes down to a choice is ridiculous to begin with, but then the choices offered and how they are presented go counter to all the stories of people and races and worlds that could have been given a second chance. 

So you look at it and you must see there are corollaries with Greek Mythology.  The Phoenix rising From the Ashes.  Redemption. And many other such themes.  In fact there was a great show on Greek Mythology and Star Wars that is rather revealing since many of the same themes abound in ME, up until the ending.  There are also biblical ties and other things thrown in there just to be sure.  The idea of ascension by death is certainly a biblical reference, but also in its form in the game seems more like the Heaven's Gate cult mission.  I guess they thought they'd throw everything they could out there and see what would stick to the wall.

[Ieldra]

3DandBeyond wrote...
I guess they thought they'd throw everything they could out there and see what would stick to the wall.

This is the impression I get. It's like they made a list of themes that could be tenuously connected to the story, and put some reference in somewhere. I wouldn't really mind, if it didn't come at the expense of in-world logic. 

[Indy_S]

Ieldra2 wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...
I guess they thought they'd throw everything they could out there and see what would stick to the wall.

This is the impression I get. It's like they made a list of themes that could be tenuously connected to the story, and put some reference in somewhere. I wouldn't really mind, if it didn't come at the expense of in-world logic. 

I got the 'see what sticks' attitude from the series as a whole. We've got a Mako and an inventory system! Neither of those work, let's scrap them rather than fix them. Hey, for the sequel, let's bring in some badass bugs and a Reaper with a Shepard obsession! Well, they were a joke, let's scrap them too.

[Obadiah]

Just found this nugget from Mass Effect on Feros. This is Shaila's speech before she gives the Protehan Cipher to Commander Shepard:

Shaila...

Try to relax, Commander. Slow, deep breaths. Let go of your physical shell. Reach out to grasp the threads that bind us, one to another. Every action sends ripples across the galaxy. Each idea must touch another mind to live. Each emotion must mark another's spirit. We are all connected. Every living being united in a single, glorious existence. Open yourself to the universe, Commander.

Embrace eternity!

Sounds pretty mystical to me. Wonder if this could be factored in to the explanation for Synthesis?

Modifié par Obadiah, 02 mars 2013 - 03:56 .

[StarcloudSWG]

Yes, it's a philosophical explanation of the Asari's abilities, a memetic trigger to get both partners into the right state of mind for melding to happen, not a scientific explanation of how it actually works; that is something you can induce from the in-DLC explanation of Rachni communication and the explanation of the Leviathan's 'fragments'.

[BSpud]

Awesome OP.

[Obadiah]

@StarcloudSWG
You're probably correct that the description is philosophical. I suspect this is part of Asari religion or the teachings of Matriarch Benezia.

However, I don't think the explanation for Rachni or Leviathan applies to this description. Rachni and Leviathan communication explanations describe point to point communication across the galaxy. What Shaila is speaking of appears to be literally more a another state of existence we are at once ignorant and yet a part of: the "single, glorious existence" which we can open our minds to. Zero proof of this given in game though.

Modifié par Obadiah, 25 février 2013 - 02:41 .

[CronoDragoon]

StarcloudSWG wrote...

Yes, it's a philosophical explanation of the Asari's abilities, a memetic trigger to get both partners into the right state of mind for melding to happen, not a scientific explanation of how it actually works; that is something you can induce from the in-DLC explanation of Rachni communication and the explanation of the Leviathan's 'fragments'.

But the point is that the scientific explanation was clearly not important in ME1. We didn't even find out how Prothean beacons worked until ME3. It was largely magical.

[Yate]

Obadiah wrote...

Just found this nugget from Mass Effect on Feros. This is Shaila's speech before she gives the Protehan Cipher to Commander Shepard:

Shaila...

Try to relax, Commander. Slow, deep breaths. Let go of your physical shell. Reach out to grasp the threads that bind us, one to another. Every action sends ripples across the galaxy. Each idea must touch another mind to live. Each emotion must mark another's spirit. We are all connected. Every living being united in a single, glorious existence. Open yourself to the universe, Commander.

Embrace eternity!

Sounds pretty mystical to me. Wonder if this could be factored in to the explanation for Synthesis?

pretty much this

really ME1 was the most mystical of the series

if the Cipher was introduced in ME3 fans would throw a huuuuge fit over it

[StarcloudSWG]

Obadiah wrote...

@StarcloudSWG
You're probably correct that the description is philosophical. I suspect this is part of Asari religion or the teachings of Matriarch Benezia.

However, I don't think the explanation for Rachni or Leviathan applies to this description. Rachni and Leviathan communication explanations describe point to point communication across the galaxy. What Shaila is speaking of appears to be literally more a another state of existence we are at once ignorant and yet a part of: the "single, glorious existence" which we can open our minds to. Zero proof of this given in game though.

"We think of what the Rachni Queen does as telepathy, but there's really no such thing."

What other species do we know of that has "telepathic" powers?

And wouldn't such a power look like, to the user, as evidence for a connection to a 'greater existence?'

Finally; "Why does this happen" and "How does this happen" are two different questions. The "How" can be answered scientifically. The "Why" can be answered philosophically. It's when you conflate/confuse an answer for "Why" as an answer for "How" that explanations of physical phenomenon become mystical.

'Why" answers usually come long before "How" answers, and are usually ascribed to "beings you can't see." They become ingrained in a developing culture *long* before people ask "How".

Modifié par StarcloudSWG, 25 février 2013 - 04:06 .

[DeinonSlayer]

I've created a poll asking the tone you all would wish to see future Mass Effect titles take. Lean towards scientific or mystical explanations?

I for one never want to hear the words "organic energy" or "essence of a species" or any of that transcendental horsecrap ever again...

[Reorte]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

I've created a poll asking the tone you all would wish to see future Mass Effect titles take. Lean towards scientific or mystical explanations?

I for one never want to hear the words "organic energy" or "essence of a species" or any of that transcendental horsecrap ever again...

The depressing thing is that the more time goes by the more likely it is that I feel that those words were written by someone who actually felt that it was some sort of scientific explanation.

[Abreu Road]

Mass Effect is an rpg made by the people who gave us KOTOR and Baldur's Gate (D&D), two franchises that features lots of mysticism and religion themes. Actually, lots of Science Fiction works end up touching this topic eventually. I was watching Babylon 5 recently and probably every episode that I watched shows something about religion or mysticism (only saw half of the first season).

It was natural for Mass Effect to inherit these kind of themes. Since ME1 they were always present. For example, Asari are a deeply mystical and spiritual race, even being the most technologically advanced. The entire Prothean/Reaper plot can be seen as that "old gods" **** we saw in lots of fantasy/scifi works.

And Mass Effect 2 pretty much estabilished that Shepard was kind of a Jesus. Ressurrection, the only hope, the one who will guide humans (and the galaxy) for victory. Javik says in 3 at Earth something like "you are the embodiment of hope this civilization and every other has ever had". Shepard is tempted many times in the course of 3 games. Also, the 12 followers in ME2. I actually played the game expecting one of them to betray Shepard, lol.

That fits well in the series so far. The difference between ME and other fantasy work is that almost everything in the ME universe can be scientifically explained, thus, a science fiction game. Wasn't this heavily sci-fi concepts be an important part of the universe, Mass Effect would pretty much look like an Star Wars, a science fantasy or a fantasy only.

Vanilla endings really were mysical only with science and the lore itself being completely forgot for the sake of art. Extended fixed pretty much that adding logic and lore to that atrocity.

Oh, and let's not forget the choices: Destroy, cleansing the galaxy from evil; Control, Jesus Shep dies and becomes God/Goddess Shep; and Synthesis was a deeply spiritual ending. EDI lines shows that.

Shepard was always a Jesus or at least a very monomythical figure like many other prophets and heroes from our civilization. Nothing wrong or unexpected from that. It was not mystic who ****ed up the series. Bad game design and bad writing who ****ed up the end. Well, at least in my opinion.

Modifié par Abreu Road, 26 février 2013 - 07:37 .

[Obadiah]

@StarcloudSWG
Shaila never actually says "why", she just described a "what" in fairly mystical terms.

Pretty much I agree with everything you said, except that a scientific explanation for point-to-point communication would not describe a "single glorious existence." And "yes", in my quote when I said "zero proof of this is given," by implication I was saying Shaila might be describing a philosophy that assumes "a single glorious existence" simply from the ability to achieve a point-to-point telepathic connection.

In-game there is another implied source for a scientific explanation for telepathy, the Prothean beacons. These use telepathic communication, but are purely technological devices.

I'm still kind of curious as to what evidence Shaila and the Asari have for "a single glorious existence." The Asari can live to be a 1000 years old, and would probably have figured out that their telepathic abilities alone do not imply such an existence.

[JShepppp]

Great post, Ieldra2.

[Ieldra]

DeinonSlayer wrote...
I for one never want to hear the words "organic energy" or "essence of a species" or any of that transcendental horsecrap ever again...

Indeed. To add insult to injury, the writers used these terms as if they actually explained anything. 

Note that I have nothing against allusions to transcendence in an allegorical way. For instance at the end of the Reaper Base mission:

(1) The Reapers' minds are said to be beyond our understanding.
(2) Reaper code gives the geth individuality.

Considering the fact that the roots of our individuality are considered to be beyond our understanding, I found this poetically appropriate. 

Other symbolism is fine as well, for instance that you get the Reaper heart if you destroyed the Collector base and the Reaper brain if you saved it.

Things like this don't attempt to say anything about the world, it's rather an attempt to make the story connect with cultural memes we carry in our minds in specific ways. In-world, which parts of the proto-Reaper survives the explosion is accidental, and the source of the geth's newfound individuality is a cause for concern. There is no attempt to use the symbolic connection as an explanation for what happens in-world. In a similar way, "Does this unit have a soul" and its affirmative answer doesn't imply there really is anything like that, but it's a metaphor for "geth have certain attributes we consider fundamental for intelligent life equal to ourselves".   

"Organic energy" and "essence of a species" are different. They're offered as explanations, implying there really is such a thing for which "organic energy" is an appropriate term. And poof, we're in fantasyland. Or back in the early Renaissance.

While I'm at it: that Bioware hasn't done a SF universe before is no excuse (SW is fantasy in space, not SF). As storytellers, they should be aware of what can be done with impunity in an SF universe and what needs more grounding before it can be applied. Until this point, mysticism in the ME universe - like "embrace eternity" - has always been mysticism in-world. As appropriate, no statement about any factual truths behind the asari belief system has ever been made, and Shiala's way to connect to Shepard has the feel of ritual. Having the arguably most knowledgeable entity of the ME universe using mystical terms to explain things in the last five minutes of a story (the SM in ME2, the Citadel scene in ME3). that - if you take it at face value - retroactively breaks the universe established through the other 99% of the story. Thus, I don't take it at face value but as the nonsense it is.