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[Wayning_Star]

Overcompensation and the descent from science into mysticism...

[Auld Wulf]

This thread is ever reading more and more like: Look at me, I'm a hipster cool kid because I refuse to comprehend symbolism or science-fiction. I demand more facts in my stories about things which haven't happened yet, damn it.

You can really tell whom in this thread has and hasn't ever read a book. Honestly.

I mean, honestly. You're trying to look smart by wanting no fiction in your science-fiction, and it's making my head hurt because it's just so much bull. I'm sorry, but this is rife with hipster stench, and incredibly illogical. This might help, or it might not, I just don't know any more.

It's just... I... Are you seeing what you're saying? "Mass Effect is bad because it's science-fiction! It should have been... science-faction! Yeah!" Please. Please. Please. Stop.

Modifié par Auld Wulf, 27 février 2013 - 02:58 .

[The Night Mammoth]

The level of arrogance in this forum just spiked, something's wrong.

Oh, it's okay, just Auld Wulf and more of his ego stroking nonsense. Continue as normal. 

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 27 février 2013 - 02:58 .

[Auld Wulf]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

The level of arrogance in this forum just spiked, something's wrong.

Oh, it's okay, just Auld Wulf and more of his ego stroking nonsense. Continue as normal.

What? For being pissed at people for wanting BioWare to write fact-filled fiction about the future? And I'm arrogant? You're full of it. Get your head out of your arse already.

[Uncle Jo]

Auld Wulf wrote...

*Blahblahblahblah. People don't get it.*

 Please. Please. Please. Stop.

No.

[Ieldra]

Auld Wulf wrote...
This thread is ever reading more and more like: Look at me, I'm a hipster cool kid because I refuse to comprehend symbolism or science-fiction. I demand more facts in my stories about things which haven't happened yet, damn it.

You can really tell whom in this thread has and hasn't ever read a book. Honestly

:lol: If you only knew.

On my side, I can tell who in this thread has never engaged in any literary criticism. Or tried to understand what it's all about. Or engaged in any real debate. You consistently fail to address the points others are making, resorting instead to remarks about others' competence and merit while expounding on your own superiority. Unless you stop that practice, nobody will take you seriously.

To get back to the topic, read my last post on the previous page. Then read it again. And again. Don't come back before you've understood my points.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 27 février 2013 - 03:07 .

[DeinonSlayer]

Auld Wulf wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

The level of arrogance in this forum just spiked, something's wrong.

Oh, it's okay, just Auld Wulf and more of his ego stroking nonsense. Continue as normal.

What? For being pissed at people for wanting BioWare to write fact-filled fiction about the future? And I'm arrogant? You're full of it. Get your head out of your arse already.

Stay classy. 

I think what people are saying is they want more science-backed sci-fi and less pseudophilosophical horsecrap about "organic energy," or the "essence of a species." The term is Magic A is Magic A. Basically, if a science fiction universe is established with certain rules (like the properties of Element Zero, or how the Thanix weapon system functions), then it should do its best to adhere to those rules. You don't, say, take a weapon which is described as a stream of molten metal accelerated to near light-speed and slap it into a "thanix missile" just because you wanted the visual of a Reaper being taken down by missiles. People are willing to suspend disbelief pretty far so long as the writer follows the rules they made up in the first place.

[Cobretti ftw]

Unfortunelly, i ahve to agree with u. Im a BIG fan of sci fi's. i love star trek, Perry Rhodan and many others. ANd when i started playing ME, the story took my atention. It was a GOOD sci fi video game.

ME2 wasnt brilliant like me1. It wasnt such a good sci fi anymore, it began to become only a video game. But it was good because they made it somehow satisfactory.

ME3 has no sci fi and is not satisfactory. I think they made TERRIBLE choices in the making of me3.

[CronoDragoon]

Ieldra2 wrote...
While I'm at it: that Bioware hasn't done a SF universe before is no excuse (SW is fantasy in space, not SF). As storytellers, they should be aware of what can be done with impunity in an SF universe and what needs more grounding before it can be applied. Until this point, mysticism in the ME universe - like "embrace eternity" - has always been mysticism in-world. As appropriate, no statement about any factual truths behind the asari belief system has ever been made, and Shiala's way to connect to Shepard has the feel of ritual. Having the arguably most knowledgeable entity of the ME universe using mystical terms to explain things in the last five minutes of a story (the SM in ME2, the Citadel scene in ME3). that - if you take it at face value - retroactively breaks the universe established through the other 99% of the story. Thus, I don't take it at face value but as the nonsense it is.  

I don't quite see the differentiation between mind-melding and Shepard's visions in ME1, and Synthesis in ME3 beyond the obvious scope difference. In all 3 cases scientific explanation takes a backseat to mystical explanations, and I would argue that Synthesis in some ways even attempts to explain how it works MORE scientifically than the other two, since it's still working within the language of science (changing DNA). It may still be ridiculous, but doesn't a ridiculous scientific explanation still make something more scientific than NO scientific explanation?

[DeinonSlayer]

I go with "synchronizing brain waves" for Asari melding. It's about as credible as "organic QEC."

[The Night Mammoth]

Auld Wulf wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

The level of arrogance in this forum just spiked, something's wrong.

Oh, it's okay, just Auld Wulf and more of his ego stroking nonsense. Continue as normal.

What? For being pissed at people for wanting BioWare to write fact-filled fiction about the future? And I'm arrogant? You're full of it. Get your head out of your arse already.

When you post anything that doesn't basically call most of the forum lesser than you, I might start caring.

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 27 février 2013 - 03:24 .

[CronoDragoon]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

I go with "synchronizing brain waves" for Asari melding. It's about as credible as "organic QEC."

Does the game say that or is it an implicit assumption about the science that we're making? In other words, are we talking about the ability to explain something scientifically (scientific plausibility) or the game's efforts to frame something scientifically vs. mystically?

[Obadiah]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

I go with "synchronizing brain waves" for Asari melding. It's about as credible as "organic QEC."

I'm thinking something similar: pheromone induced QEC that synchonizes brain-waves

[EDIT]*Looks below at explanation* Oh I see. Never mind. So, referencing how Asari have sex, their telepathic ability is sort of like being mind-******.

Modifié par Obadiah, 27 février 2013 - 03:33 .

[DeinonSlayer]

CronoDragoon wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

I go with "synchronizing brain waves" for Asari melding. It's about as credible as "organic QEC."

Does the game say that or is it an implicit assumption about the science that we're making? In other words, are we talking about the ability to explain something scientifically (scientific plausibility) or the game's efforts to frame something scientifically vs. mystically?

From the Wikia: "During melding, an asari consciously attunes her nervous system to her partner's, sending and receiving electrical impulses directly through the skin. A common phrase used before melding is "embrace eternity," presumably to help focus the partner's mind. Effectively, the asari and her partner briefly become one unified nervous system."

The brainwave thing was my own extrapolation, given that actual, physical contact isn't a requirement.

[ruggly]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

I go with "synchronizing brain waves" for Asari melding. It's about as credible as "organic QEC."

It's been a while since I've played Leviathan, but isn't that how they describe how the Rachni communicate as well in that DLC?

[Chaotic-Fusion]

It's not the mystique or bad science that bothers me, but the ever present sinking into comic-book aesthetic or logic which ME2 started, descent which I attribute to Walters' - comic-book writer - promotion to lead writer. Stuff like Lazarus, catsuits in space, overall tone shift - from exploration, into the unknown, well grounded and atmospheric sci-fi to the over the top mannerism present in the sequels.

Now don't get me wrong, I love ME2 to bits, but it's difficult not to see how it has laid the groundwork for everything that was wrong in ME3. Plot devices like the crucible, synthesis etc.

[DeinonSlayer]

ruggly wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

I go with "synchronizing brain waves" for Asari melding. It's about as credible as "organic QEC."

It's been a while since I've played Leviathan, but isn't that how they describe how the Rachni communicate as well in that DLC?

Rachni use pheremones at close range, organic QEC long-distance. Which, if they have organic QEC, there's really no need for the pheremones in the first place. 

[GimmeDaGun]

Auld Wulf wrote...

This thread is ever reading more and more like: Look at me, I'm a hipster cool kid because I refuse to comprehend symbolism or science-fiction. I demand more facts in my stories about things which haven't happened yet, damn it.

You can really tell whom in this thread has and hasn't ever read a book. Honestly.

I mean, honestly. You're trying to look smart by wanting no fiction in your science-fiction, and it's making my head hurt because it's just so much bull. I'm sorry, but this is rife with hipster stench, and incredibly illogical. This might help, or it might not, I just don't know any more.

It's just... I... Are you seeing what you're saying? "Mass Effect is bad because it's science-fiction! It should have been... science-faction! Yeah!" Please. Please. Please. Stop.

 Couldn't put it better myself...

[ruggly]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

ruggly wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

I go with "synchronizing brain waves" for Asari melding. It's about as credible as "organic QEC."

It's been a while since I've played Leviathan, but isn't that how they describe how the Rachni communicate as well in that DLC?

Rachni use pheremones at close range, organic QEC long-distance. Which, if they have organic QEC, there's really no need for the pheremones in the first place. 

Got it

[Dean_the_Young]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

ruggly wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

I go with "synchronizing brain waves" for Asari melding. It's about as credible as "organic QEC."

It's been a while since I've played Leviathan, but isn't that how they describe how the Rachni communicate as well in that DLC?

Rachni use pheremones at close range, organic QEC long-distance. Which, if they have organic QEC, there's really no need for the pheremones in the first place. 

Sure there is: effort and utility. Just because something can be done at long range doesn't mean it's ideal at all ranges.

[Wayning_Star]

Auld Wulf wrote...

This thread is ever reading more and more like: Look at me, I'm a hipster cool kid because I refuse to comprehend symbolism or science-fiction. I demand more facts in my stories about things which haven't happened yet, damn it.

You can really tell whom in this thread has and hasn't ever read a book. Honestly.

I mean, honestly. You're trying to look smart by wanting no fiction in your science-fiction, and it's making my head hurt because it's just so much bull. I'm sorry, but this is rife with hipster stench, and incredibly illogical. This might help, or it might not, I just don't know any more.

It's just... I... Are you seeing what you're saying? "Mass Effect is bad because it's science-fiction! It should have been... science-faction! Yeah!" Please. Please. Please. Stop.

Here within is the apparent quandery Wulf. From your link.

Symbolism
Symbolism is the applied use of symbols: iconic representations that carry particular conventional meanings.
The term "symbolism" is limited to use in contrast to "representationalism"; defining the general directions of a linear spectrum – where in all symbolic concepts can be viewed in relation, and where changes in context may imply systemic changes to individual and collective definitions of symbols. "Symbolism" may refer to a way of choosing representative symbols in line with abstract rather than literal properties, allowing for the broader interpretation of a carried meaning than more literal concept-representations allow. A religion can be described as a language of concepts related to human spirituality. Symbolism hence is an important aspect of most religions.
The interpretation of abstract symbols has had an important role in religion and psychoanalysis. As envisioned by Sigmund Freud and Carl Jung, symbols are not the creations of mind, but rather are distinct capacities within the mind to hold a distinct piece of information. In the mind, the symbol can find free association with any number of other symbols, can be organized in any number of ways, and can hold the connected meanings between symbols as symbols in themselves. Jung and Freud diverged on the issue of common cognitive symbol systems and whether they could exist only within the individual mind or among other minds; whether any cognitive symbolism was defined by innate symbolism or by the influence of the environment around them.
[edit] Metaphor
Metaphor (from the Greek language: Meaning "apply", literally, "carry across") is language that directly compares seemingly unrelated subjects. It is a figure of speech that compares two or more things not using like or as. In the simplest case, this takes the form: "The [first subject] is a [second subject]." More generally, a metaphor is a rhetorical trope that describes a first subject as being or equal to a second object in some way. Thus, the first subject can be economically described because implicit and explicit attributes from the second subject are used to enhance the description of the first. This (is commonly known as jupiters genitals) is known for usage in literature, especially in poetry, where with few words, emotions and associations from one context are associated with objects and entities in a different context. A simpler definition is the comparison of two unrelated things without using the words "like" or "as".
The term derives from Greek μεταφορά (metaphora), or "transference",[5] from μεταφέρω (metaphero) "to carry over, to transfer"[6] and that from μετά (meta), "between"[7] + φέρω (phero), "to bear, to carry".

[8]



Im thinking that many detractors over compensate with ostentatious displays. Often the criterion is necessitated with misunderstanding, it's a learning process,un beknownst to/by the observers. Speaking tentatively , of course.

[Obadiah]

How about in Arrival, when Shep wakes up after being defeating at object Rho, he sees Dr. Kenson with glowing eyes, indicating she is indoctrinated, really for no good reason. That's kind of literally mystical.

[Obadiah]

Shaila...

Try to relax, Commander. Slow, deep breaths. Let go of your physical shell. Reach out to grasp the threads that bind us, one to another. Every action sends ripples across the galaxy. Each idea must touch another mind to live. Each emotion must mark another's spirit. We are all connected. Every living being united in a single, glorious existence. Open yourself to the universe, Commander.

Embrace eternity!

Just FYI on this quote, this is a more flowery way of stating an Asari philosophy. Liara flatly states, "My people believe we are all part of a single galactic community. Each species contributes something to the greater whole."

[StarcloudSWG]

 And about Asari telepathy... It's not too far fetched given recently released information. All that needs to be done is to say they have a short-range ability to synchronize brain activity:

Electrical implant enables 'telepathy'.

[SurfaceBeneath]

I'd disagree with the OP purely because the mystical has always existed in the ME series, though I think ME1 kept it on the backburner a bit more whereas ME2 and 3 brought it a little more to the forefront. I'd say indoctrination is the biggest constant of mysticism in the series as it never is attempted to be explained through any kind of logic and while I understand that Indoctrination was supposed to be mysterious, there's not really any scientific explanation for the ways indoctrination changes a person in game and it's incredibly inconsistent, most notably in the fact that Shepard and her crew seem immune to it outright. No one ever attempts to explain it, it's just this universal constant like the Force that everyone accepts.

Additionally I don't think that the Lazarus Program steers into mysticism at all. Yes, Shepard was brain-dead and the brain decays after death but it's not impossible to believe that the proteins and neurons in the brain couldn't be rebuilt. Especially if Shepard has had their brain mapped out to a cellular level in the past. Mapping a brain in that detail is probably not outside of the realm of what we will actually be able to achieve in the next 50 years or so, so imagining that technology to exist in the Mass Effect series wouldn't be a stretch and moreover might be a part of simple medical examination in that world. I always imagined that the Lazerus Project was more a matter of money and finesse rather than any technological restriction.

Also I don't agree that the Reapers methods of being built are mystical, though there certainly is a totemic aspect of the Catalyst's design. Essentially it's making each Reaper a library of the species that created it, pumping it full of genetic data and housing it in a form similar in appearance to the race that made it. The wording was a bit unfortunate in explaining it, however I think the Catalyst's explanation of what Reapers actually are fills that all in adequately.

EDIT: Rereading the OP, I'm thinking I may have misunderstood the real topic here. Are we arguing whether Mass Effect reverted more to mystical explanations for its fiction as time went on or that it tried to present things in a mystical way? 

Modifié par SurfaceBeneath, 02 mars 2013 - 08:24 .