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The Mass Effect trilogy and the descent from science into mysticism


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#51
CronoDragoon

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Ieldra2 wrote...
There is no evidence for this interpretation in the games. There is no evidence, in fact, for its far wider implication: that a personality cannot exist without being bound by hardware. Tali's explanations about how the geth - after having gained individuality - still download into the suits of quarians to help them adapt suggests that geth personalities exist independently from their hardware.


Download doesn't imply anything except download to me. That is, the geth copy their data into the suits, not transfer it.

As for evidence that individuality comes from software remaining in platforms long enough, it's almost exactly what Shepard points out to Legion in the geth heretic mission.

#52
Ieldra

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Greylycantrope wrote...
Went form Physics Plus to Science in Genre Only.

ME1 was more in the category "One Big Lie" - everything "magical" could be linked to eezo. Very neat, actually, even if a little overdone at times.

#53
Guest_LineHolder_*

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@Wayning

Come on man, I said you write/talk like Mordin. That's a compliment.

#54
Ultranovae

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Actually Legion's sacrifice reminds me of the ending of ghost in the shell where? Having established that identity is derived form individual experiences and hardware, both the major and the puppet master combined both their "software" identities to form a new identity, losing bothy he original ones and creating one whole new.
Synthesis though relying on suspension of disbelief is justified, literary wise, with the same suspension of disbelief: we have learned that reapers are created by the upload of a species DNA and the cybernetic hardware that learns all there is to know about the species, their culture heir history, everything.
Thus we have the claim, identity of organic equals body and mind. In synthesis it is implied that both Shepard's DNA and all of his memories, basically the essence of who he is, is destructively analized in order to complete the synthesis process.

#55
Ultranovae

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Sorry for the typos, "smart" phone here

#56
Ieldra

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CronoDragoon wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
There is no evidence for this interpretation in the games. There is no evidence, in fact, for its far wider implication: that a personality cannot exist without being bound by hardware. Tali's explanations about how the geth - after having gained individuality - still download into the suits of quarians to help them adapt suggests that geth personalities exist independently from their hardware.


Download doesn't imply anything except download to me. That is, the geth copy their data into the suits, not transfer it.

If that interpretation works for you, fine, but that's not how its described in the conversation with Tali.

As for evidence that individuality comes from software remaining in platforms long enough, it's almost exactly what Shepard points out to Legion in the geth heretic mission.

No, the matter discussed in that conversation is separation from each other, not being tied to a specific platform.

#57
MegumiAzusa

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btw one of the first tears in reality was rather Ilos. Ever bothered to read it's stats? Atm. Pressure: 11.26 atm, and they leave the Normandy without even a breather.

#58
Wayning_Star

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Ieldra2 wrote...

@Auld Wulf:
You misunderstand the problem. Simply remaining unknown is not a problem. With regard to organics and synthetics: we do know what the difference is, right? A fundamental difference in design and an accidental one in "chemistry". There's nothing mystical about it. Yet, suddenly, there is such a thing as "organic energy"? How does this connect with the fictional reality of the ME universe? Yeah, it doesn't.  


http://www.colorado....em_Res_2003.pdf Image IPB

#59
ruggly

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Very well written, OP.  You already know my stance on synthesis, so I'll spare you my blabbing on that again.

The setup: Mass Effect 1
Recall ME1. We have quite a few elements of "space magic" in it. FTL, biotics,inter-species sex, to name the most noticeable. The rationalization in terms of in-world science was shoddy, sometimes nonsensical, but then,
ME was never supposed to be hard SF, and to give the writers some credit, I've seen much worse on TV. In the end, these elements were introduced as part of the setting, built into the structure of this fictional universe in a way I could suspend my disbelief for. More importantly, they were described in a way that suggested they were intrinsically comprehensible to the people of the ME universe, no matter that I couldn't make sense of them in terms of the extended real-world science I would apply to a hard-SF universe.


I think this is as you mentioned, that they were written to fit within the universe of ME.  The codex, iirc, went into pretty lengthy detail on how all of this works.  One of the original writers, Chris l'Etoile, had wanted ME to be a harder universe (and I think he wrote the Codex as well), so he managed pretty well to let me suspend my disbelief for FTL and all that.

The first tear in reality: The Lazarus Project
The first hint that this principle of rationalization in in-world terms was about to break came with ME2's Lazarus project. Shepard was dead, and if he hadn't been "clinically brain dead" as was later explained in ME3, the word "dead" wouldn't have been used. It was always clear that  Shepard was dead, not "almost dead". Also, anyone who knows the least bit about medicine knows that the brain deteriorates after a few minutes without oxygen. So where did the information come from used to reconstruct Shepard's memory and identity? There have been a few
rationalizations by players like "Shepard's brain was frozen" or "He carried a greybox which stored his identity", but anyone who noticed the symbolic significance of Shepard's resurrection would also notice the suggestion of a more mystical explanation: that the information was stored "somewhere else".


I'll admit, I didn't really blink an eyelash over this the first time I played.  But I do wish that they had given us a chance to even ask about it more, instead of getting those small video logs that you see on the station that don't really provide many answers, or just being told I was nothing more than "meat and tubes."  And what mostly bothers me is that Shepard wakes up, and then gets back to business, doesn't question it at all until Chronos Station in 3, and even then that's a real short questioning of self.

Going to skip over the suicide mission bit, you've explained my feelings pretty well there

The final descent: Legion's sacrifice
Geth are software. Even after they've gained identity, they remain software, as evidenced by Tali's explanation of how the geth are helping the quarians to adapt. So here's the question: why did Legion need to die? In which way, please, is a copy of some software not identical to its original? There is no such thing unless you assume some extradimensional element to anyone's identity which has the intrinsic property that it cannot be copied. I call BS on that one. There is an utterly pernicious aspect to this: before, certain elements were suggestive of mysticism but we could interpret our way around it using existing elements of the lore. Those elements had symbolic meaning but there could, as yet, be an interpretation in terms established by the lore or the fictional science of the ME universe. Now, Legion's sacrifice is the first time where this does not work anymore, where we are expected to take mysticism for reality. With Legion's sacrifice, the allegorical becomes real, and the ME universe ceases to be a science fiction universe.


Agreed, Legion's "sacrifice" is very forced. There is zero reason that he cannot copy himself before uploading the code.  As others have mentioned, he doesn't have a bluebox.  I kind of wish that there was an option for peace without Legion uploading the code, but alas, there wasn't, and I'm sure I'll be called names for thinking that.

Anyways, this here murdering binary thinking luddite ape who has been told to crawl back into the cave from which I came agrees that the switch from sci-fi to being hit over the head by the Space Jesus hammer is a very jarring switch.  Had synthesis been foreshadowed just a bit more, and had played out in some different manner...well, I may have chosen it.  But too little, too late, hindsight and blah blah blah and all that yazz.

edit: quotes like to mess with me.

Modifié par ruggly, 18 février 2013 - 04:54 .


#60
CronoDragoon

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Ieldra2 wrote...

If that interpretation works for you, fine, but that's not how its described in the conversation with Tali.


Well, I look forward to your counter-evidence from that conversation, because when you download something the source remains, and download is the word she used. /shrug

No, the matter discussed in that conversation is separation from each other, not being tied to a specific platform.


Being tied to a specific platform is separation. Legion's character has been based around this idea from the start, or at least from the moment they decided to have him patch his armor with a scrap of Shepard's N7 armor.

Edit: Looking back, this conversation spawned in the dispute over whether or not differences would be maintained in the software even if transferred to a different hardware, is that correct? In that case I side with the notion that once changed software remains changed even when moved to different hardware.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 18 février 2013 - 04:54 .


#61
Wayning_Star

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LineHolder wrote...

@Wayning

Come on man, I said you write/talk like Mordin. That's a compliment.


I wish..lol

all kudo's accepted!!

Image IPB

#62
Ieldra

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Ultranovae wrote...
Actually Legion's sacrifice reminds me of the ending of ghost in the shell where? Having established that identity is derived form individual experiences and hardware, both the major and the puppet master combined both their "software" identities to form a new identity, losing bothy he original ones and creating one whole new.
Synthesis though relying on suspension of disbelief is justified, literary wise, with the same suspension of disbelief: we have learned that reapers are created by the upload of a species DNA and the cybernetic hardware that learns all there is to know about the species, their culture heir history, everything.
Thus we have the claim, identity of organic equals body and mind. In synthesis it is implied that both Shepard's DNA and all of his memories, basically the essence of who he is, is destructively analized in order to complete the synthesis process.

And how exactly does this facilitate Synthesis? Specifically, how the hell can Shepard's DNA be relevant at all? And if it's his personality and thoughts, like in Control, why isn't *that* said? And if, for some strange reason I can't understand, it's really Shepard's DNA *and* his thoughts and memories, why not say *that* instead of "organic energy"? The problem is that the use of the term implies that there is such a thing. And taking that at face value would redefine the universe in terms of vitalism.

#63
MegumiAzusa

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CronoDragoon wrote...

Being tied to a specific platform is separation. Legion's character has been based around this idea from the start, or at least from the moment they decided to have him patch his armor with a scrap of Shepard's N7 armor.

The thing is that the software bits that are in one Geth platform do not change. They don't evolve. Only the Platform evolves, and with that the number of different Geth is increased/decreased which results in a different personality. You can even see that in ME3. Shep has difficulties to believe the Geth VI isn't just Legion reborn as it acts the same way Legion did, which is based on the equal amount of Geth installed in this specific platform, yet it is still not Legion. Geth hardware evolves, their programs do not, until they got changed by the Reapers (first the Heretics by Nazara, later the upgrades Legion is talking about).
Geth in the same platform might look from the outside as the same personality but still are not as they are just acting as one through consensus.

#64
Wayning_Star

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Ieldra2

are we inside looking out or outside lookin in? We cannot base an entire arguement on two words 'organic and energy', can we?

what energises an organic being?

as opposed to what energises an inorganic being?

Does legion have a soul purpose? (age old question really.. I friggen hate space..lol

Modifié par Wayning_Star, 18 février 2013 - 05:02 .


#65
ruggly

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Wayning_Star wrote...
what energises an organic being?

food

as opposed to what energises an inorganic being?

batteries

go go luddite thinking.

#66
CronoDragoon

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MegumiAzusa wrote...
The thing is that the software bits that are in one Geth platform do not change. They don't evolve. Only the Platform evolves, and with that the number of different Geth is increased/decreased which results in a different personality. You can even see that in ME3. Shep has difficulties to believe the Geth VI isn't just Legion reborn as it acts the same way Legion did, which is based on the equal amount of Geth installed in this specific platform, yet it is still not Legion. Geth hardware evolves, their programs do not, until they got changed by the Reapers (first the Heretics by Nazara, later the upgrades Legion is talking about).
Geth in the same platform might look from the outside as the same personality but still are not as they are just acting as one through consensus.


Well, the way I see it, geth software can evolve in a sense: if you have geth in a platform, and that platform has certain experiences about which it must form decisions, it will then reference those earlier decisions going forward. These experiences are lacking for geth in other platforms or in the main consensus.

Now, you could argue that geth will always react the same to the same experience, but isn't this contradicted by the existence of the heretics? Was the difference in opinion regarding the Reapers platform-based?

#67
MegumiAzusa

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CronoDragoon wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...
The thing is that the software bits that are in one Geth platform do not change. They don't evolve. Only the Platform evolves, and with that the number of different Geth is increased/decreased which results in a different personality. You can even see that in ME3. Shep has difficulties to believe the Geth VI isn't just Legion reborn as it acts the same way Legion did, which is based on the equal amount of Geth installed in this specific platform, yet it is still not Legion. Geth hardware evolves, their programs do not, until they got changed by the Reapers (first the Heretics by Nazara, later the upgrades Legion is talking about).
Geth in the same platform might look from the outside as the same personality but still are not as they are just acting as one through consensus.


Well, the way I see it, geth software can evolve in a sense: if you have geth in a platform, and that platform has certain experiences about which it must form decisions, it will then reference those earlier decisions going forward. These experiences are lacking for geth in other platforms or in the main consensus.

Now, you could argue that geth will always react the same to the same experience, but isn't this contradicted by the existence of the heretics? Was the difference in opinion regarding the Reapers platform-based?

You already quoted "their programs do not, until they got changed by the Reapers (first the Heretics by Nazara, later the upgrades Legion is talking about)." you should read the whole post.

#68
Wayning_Star

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ruggly wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...
what energises an organic being?

food


as opposed to what energises an inorganic being?

batteries

go go luddite thinking.



not really.. Human Battery

#69
AlanC9

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Just a couple of observations on an an excellent post

I would add the Reapers' non-rational plan to the ME1 list; unless you don't considers this to be noticeable enough at the time, that is.

Geth are software. Even after they've gained identity, they remain software, as evidenced by Tali's explanation of how the geth are helping the quarians to adapt. So here's the question: why did Legion need to die? In which way, please, is a copy of some software not identical to its original? There is no such thing unless you assume some extradimensional element to anyone's identity which has the intrinsic property that it cannot be copied.


I believe the word you're looking for there is "soul." Note that a lot of us apparently think souls exist ITRW.

And you're not implying a conceptual difference because he's software, right? Just that the ME universe can't copy matter ( no Trek transporters) but can copy software.
 
How do you interpret Synthesis? The Catalyst's using a bad metaphor, but what's the reality?

#70
CronoDragoon

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MegumiAzusa wrote...
You already quoted "their programs do not, until they got changed by the Reapers (first the Heretics by Nazara, later the upgrades Legion is talking about)." you should read the whole post.


The heretics decided on their own to follow the Reapers, though. I thought this was a change made evident in the ME2 heretic mission from ME1. Am I wrong?

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 18 février 2013 - 05:16 .


#71
MegumiAzusa

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CronoDragoon wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...
You already quoted "their programs do not, until they got changed by the Reapers (first the Heretics by Nazara, later the upgrades Legion is talking about)." you should read the whole post.


The heretics decided on their own to follow the Reapers, though.

Legion tells you otherwise in ME2. Also its mission is based on the very premise that they got a virus, which made possible by the Reapers, that would introduce the very same change in other Geth programs they had.

I thought this was a change made evident in the ME2 heretic mission from ME1. Am I wrong?

There is no direct evidence in any way to support this. Even if it was introduced only with ME2 there is nothing in ME1 that tells you otherwise.

Modifié par MegumiAzusa, 18 février 2013 - 05:19 .


#72
CronoDragoon

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MegumiAzusa wrote...

Legion tells you otherwise in ME2. Also its mission is based on the very premise that they got a virus, which made possible by the Reapers, that would introduce the very same change in other Geth programs they had.

I thought this was a change made evident in the ME2 heretic mission from ME1. Am I wrong?

There is no direct evidence in any way to support this.


I'm at work and my computer doesn't have a sound card so I can't check the scene on YT, but if you can link the scene in the heretic mission where Legion still suggests that Sovereign introduced a virus which altered the geth consensus and produced the heretics, I'd appreciate it. I was always under the impression that the heretics formed their own consensus which drove them to Sovereign, and since I played ME2 first I'm inclined to think it was info from the heretic mission which somewhat retconned ME1.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 18 février 2013 - 05:22 .


#73
Wayning_Star

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AlanC9 wrote...

Just a couple of observations on an an excellent post

I would add the Reapers' non-rational plan to the ME1 list; unless you don't considers this to be noticeable enough at the time, that is.

Geth are software. Even after they've gained identity, they remain software, as evidenced by Tali's explanation of how the geth are helping the quarians to adapt. So here's the question: why did Legion need to die? In which way, please, is a copy of some software not identical to its original? There is no such thing unless you assume some extradimensional element to anyone's identity which has the intrinsic property that it cannot be copied.


I believe the word you're looking for there is "soul." Note that a lot of us apparently think souls exist ITRW.

And you're not implying a conceptual difference because he's software, right? Just that the ME universe can't copy matter ( no Trek transporters) but can copy software.
 
How do you interpret Synthesis? The Catalyst's using a bad metaphor, but what's the reality?





when does the 'soul' become evident as programming? Essentially a question that has no answer, hense mystical?

organic enery is a bit generic term for soul as it requires equation to equalize it with Geth concensus. They live in a bubble that, in their words, contains their 'essence' or being if you'd rather call existience in general terms.

#74
ruggly

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Wayning_Star wrote...

ruggly wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...
what energises an organic being?

food


as opposed to what energises an inorganic being?

batteries

go go luddite thinking.



not really.. Human Battery


joke
___________________________
you

or you just didn't understand my grunting.

Modifié par ruggly, 18 février 2013 - 05:34 .


#75
Wayning_Star

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ruggly wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

ruggly wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...
what energises an organic being?

food



as opposed to what energises an inorganic being?

batteries

go go luddite thinking.



not really.. Human Battery


joke
___________________________
you

or you just didn't understand my grunting.


I seen what you did there..lol sooo many luddites..so little spacetime.

(differenciation, I get it ;)