311 réponses à ce sujet

[Miniditka77]

Najarati wrote...

stormrider1012 wrote...
Ironically, it seems the better your aim is, the harder it is to adjust to the crusader.

While funny, I think there might be a small bit of truth to this.  I know I go through a small adjustment period if I was using the Sabre (or something similar) beforehand.

I don't know... I'm horrible at aiming other guns, and I can't hit anything with the Crusader.

[BjornDaDwarf]

Miniditka77 wrote...

You know, I actually have been thinking of a good character to try the Crusader on, and I came up with the Turian Sentinel.  You could spec Overload for damage (or at least enough damage to completely strip any mook's shields) and spec the passive for maximum weapon damage and stability.  I haven't tried it yet, but I'm thinking of going 4/6/6/6/4.

Sounds like a great standard TSent build.  Use Overload for mobs, Warp to debuff bosses. 

I would skip Neural Shock on Overload and take Recharge (so mobs don't get knocked down), and go with at least one of the chain evolutions.  Overload staggers long enough to get the second stunned target as he's recovering.   And I would go with the Rank 6 recharge on Warp, it's not going to be a damage dealing power anyways.  

[Tallgeese_VII]

Think about this.

A player always have to 'figure out' how to make Crusader works on different kits.
Black Widow on the other hand, makes any kit viable in Gold.

Crusader is able to do some good work here and there.. but it`s just not something should be recommended.

[BjornDaDwarf]

Tallgeese_VII wrote...

Think about this.

A player always have to 'figure out' how to make Crusader works on different kits.
Black Widow on the other hand, makes any kit viable in Gold.

Crusader is able to do some good work here and there.. but it`s just not something should be recommended.

But you really only need to "figure out" the Crusader once, and from then on you can throw it on any kit you already use a heavy weapon on.  It's not like it works differently from one kit to another.  

[Sojiro888]

BjornDaDwarf wrote...

Sojiro888 wrote...
Geth Hint : good luck
(I do have a couple tricks, but none of them are both reliable and easy to explain/use)

Fought on Geth/Gold with it tonight, with a level 15 Krosent (no Incinerate build).  The Geth are easy with it.  They love to line up in a row and let you hit 2-4 of them with one shot.  Pyros are slow.  Hunters are slow when approaching.

I know, but predicting their movement pattern isn't some simple trick you can fully explain in a couple lines, and while they do tend to move slowly toward you, this isn't 100% guaranteed, so this isn't as reliable as the tricks I've given for the two other types of targets.

It's not like I was saying that Geths can't be handled just fine. Here are a few things against them:

If you can spot a Hunter's  haze, they'll be very easy to nail since the y move slowly in a straight line ignoring cover. But not everyone can easily keep track of them while cloaked.
Pyros are rarely the problem. They're fat targets almost always moving directly toward you.
Bombers stop after dropping bombs, and you have enough time to line up a nice shot, and fire before moving away and avoiding the grenades. Alternatively you can circle strafe to keep the bomber in your sight while moving away so that you can shoot a couple times before it starts moving.
For rocket troopers, you can often do the same as with a nemesis. However if you get close they won't flee, they'll try to melee you, so just step back while aiming at their head, first shot will stagger and second will kill.
For troopers, regular easy bodyshots should do the trick. I don't think they have obvious vulnerability spots like the rest, but then again they usually aren't the hardest to kill anyway.
And the Prime is obviously not a problem, just aim in their general direction and start emptying your clip. Since you are using sustained fire rather than a couple shot, firing 0.2s in the past is hardly a problem, and they're big enought hat the recoil won't make you miss at all.

[Sojiro888]

IIFlash wrote...

Because that was the point at which I realised any counter arguement would not be taken seriously by OP. Listing all Pro's and Con's and then basically saying the Con's don't matter.

Sort of. The cons of the weapons are not things that are just impossible to negate, like the Reegar's poor range or the Shuriken's pathetic dps. He isn't just saying "yeah, there are cons but I ignore them", he is saying that what makes this gun great is that the cons can be compensated for, which just ins't possible for all other weapons.
The big problem is the firing in the past thing, which can be negated with skill and practice (just using it a lot isn't enough, if you have the wrong sort of reflexes or don't learn to tame it that won't help you). Once that's done, it's very nearly as if the problem wasn't there at all (you are slowed by 0.2s on each opponent, a very small but not altogether inexistent problem). The recoil can also be handled by skill, and given itsRoF can be made a non issue in almost every situation (using some of the stabilization modules gathering dust in your manifest negates the issue altogether).
That leaves weight and shield gate.
Other similarly powerful weapons have a similar weight, so it's not much of an issue. It does prevent it from being even more widely useful, but as long as it compares to those other guns all's good.
Shield gate is a mixed bag. On the one hand you can entirely negate the problem at the cost of your ammo slot with some Phasic rounds, on the other hand you may not even need to do that. Given the mag size, it can afford to 2HKO shielded mooks when the Claymore only requires 1 round, that's still only 50% of the magazine to the Claymore's 100%, so it's not a crippling flaw. Also since it is so much better at taking out bosses and other tough targets, you may not even be spending any significant amount of time hunting down the targets against which shield gate matters.
So the Crusader's issue with Shield Gate (compared to Claymore, not the Sniper Rifles) will only matter when you aren't using it on the targets it is best suited for, isn't crippling even in a worst case scenario, and can be entirely negated through consumable ammo. The conclusion is that equipment and target selection can compensate for this flaw, reducing it to a non negligible but hardly deal breaking issue.

That's what being able to compensate for the cons means. Now you have to look at what you get for your trouble to see if it is worth the effort. And you have one of the very highest dps in the game combined with excellent burst damage and extreme range.

IIFlash wrote...

By this logic I could say the Claymore beats the Crusader hands down in every aspect:

If you could actually negate the issues of the Claymore until they became negligible and then compete with the Crusader on the raw power remaining, yeah. Let's see yout attempt.

IIFlash wrote...

Innate armor piercing? who needs it when you have HVB

You need it because you have a HVB. Innate piercing means it doesn't lose any damage from penetrating cover with its HVB, making it much better at killing through cover. The Claymore can't do this.

IIFlash wrote...

Damage? it does more than twice that of the Crusader

lolno, it doesn't even deal as much pure dps as the Crusader, let alone twice as much.

IIFlash wrote...

and isn't affected by shieldgate

I'll grant you that (even if it isn't about compensating for the Claymore's weakness which was your stated point). Not very impressive thus far.

IIFlash wrote...

Accuracy? can be compensated for with Smart Choke

No. You'd have to bring the Claymore to the level of accuracy of the Crusader for that to be an actual compensation (not to mention you are sacrificing a mod slot for that). Without the Smart Choke the Claymore can't use its full dps beyond point blank range. With it it can work as well at short range, and with really good aim can be very close to 100% dps at middle range. That drops dramatically beyond that while the Crusader is lining up bonus headshot damage at range where the Claymore isn't even dealing 50% of its nominal damage.
SC brings the Claymore from "cripplingly flawed for an all around weapon" to "weaker at range". hardly enough to challenge the sniper-like precision of the Crusader.

IIFlash wrote...

Clip & RoF? easily compensated for with reload cancel

Once again you reduce the magnitude of the problem but doesn't negate it. If you suddenly notice a threat after firing, it takes much longer to react to it with a Claymore than a Crusader (even with the Crusader's 0.2s aiming delay). The advantage the Claymore has is that you don't need the trigger discipline to refrain from firing for a quarter of a second, you can just spam the fire button until it works. But if you are a player who can keep his cool and maintain his rythme in this situation, the Crusader will be far better at responding to an emergency.

IIFlash wrote...

Weight? at level 10 they weigh the same and HVB still doesn't add additional weight to original weapons

So your point here is that there's a bug working in favor of the Claymore?

IIFlash wrote...

Did I miss anything important?

Making an argument that actually makes the Claymore better than the Crusader (beyond ease of use). You claimed to be able to make it "beats the Crusader hands down in every aspect" but so far you have managed :
1) Shield Gate
2) bug exploit

So yeah ...



Now I'm not saying that the Crusader is the ultimate weapon, or even clearly better than the Claymore. First, there's that "ease of use" thing, since actually compensating flawlessly for the aiming delay even under pressure isn't achievable for many players. I rarely miss because of aim delay but then again I wait closer to 0.3s than 0.2 (thus lowering my dps slightly) and I often take close to 0.4~0.5s when I can afford to take a bit more time. And I mess up about 30% of the time when I'm pressured and need to fire fast.
And the Claymore is easier to level up, so comparing at equal level isn't exactly fair (note that the link above compares a Claymore X to a Crusader V). And as far as the flaw of the Claymore goes, several maps aren't large enough that you'll be forced to chose targets beyond your effective range often at all.

This post of mine isn't to say that all Mass Effect players should bow down before the almighty Crusader because it is the ultimate slayer of all that is. It is simply in response to your post ... poorly thought out arguments.


Let's go back to the root of the problem. You dismiss out of hand the entire thing because of the claim that once you manage to compensate for the Crusader's faults (which isn't described as trivial) it is one of the best 5 weapns in the game.
But if you look at the damage tests done, you'll notice that on rw power alone it is the 6th best weapon in the game, very nearly tied with the Talon X holding the 5th place. And that's for a Crusader V. So if you take into account the difference in level, it is the 5th best already! (hardly surprising given the weight of the Talon)
Let's look at the remaining weapons : PPR& Typhoon on one hand, and Piranha&Raider on the other. Note that this is for when every single bullet/pellet hits the target, which requires to be very close to the target with those shotguns, while the Crusader can snipe from the other side of the map. And the ARs both have a ramp up mechanic as well as continuous fire, which seriously hampers their burst damage capability. So for every gun that does outperform the Crusader on raw damage, it has a significant advantage over them.

Of course, having slightly more damage than the guns ranked 7th to 12th dosn't mean that the Crusader is better than those. Wraith, Black Widow, Hurricane, Claymore, Paladin and Harrier are all very good guns in their own right. My point was that ranking the Crusader 5th isn't an absurd statement that merits complete dismissal of the entire post without even paying attention to what it says. Especially since this is tied to the condition of managing to overcome its multiple flaws (including weight, so either don't rely too much on your power or expect them to be slow).

[Original Twigman]

^^^omg dude, so much text. I think you can condense your points a little bit...

[capn233]

Original Stikman wrote...

^^^omg dude, so much text. I think you can condense your points a little bit...

Then it wouldn't merit the title "Second Treatise on the Crusader Shotgun."

[Original Twigman]

capn233 wrote...

Original Stikman wrote...

^^^omg dude, so much text. I think you can condense your points a little bit...

Then it wouldn't merit the title "Second Treatise on the Crusader Shotgun."

Hahahahaha, good one.

[SavagelyEpic]

stormrider1012 wrote...

Ironically, it seems the better your aim is, the harder it is to adjust to the crusader.

This is essentially true - the better shooters are usually the more twitchy kind, twitchy enough for 0.2s of a difference to wildly throw the shot off.

[SavagelyEpic]

capn233 wrote...

Original Stikman wrote...

^^^omg dude, so much text. I think you can condense your points a little bit...

Then it wouldn't merit the title "Second Treatise on the Crusader Shotgun."

lolololol

[N7-RedFox]

I would you use this gun a lot more often but since Bioware refuse to patch the shot delay, for me it will remain a useless piece of sh**

[Original Twigman]

In all honesty, i think the claymore is easily one of the most overhyped weapons on this forum.

I would probably put it with the Pirahna as the 4th best shotgun. The pirahna is a lot lighter, but not as accurate, yet still very powerful up close. The claymore is deadly upclose, can kill mooks at a distance, but is heavy and overkill.

Raider is a good blend between the two.

wraith is #1 in my opinion

[Original Twigman]

^^omg forgot about the reegar.

I would put the reegar slightly under the crusader.... so making it #3. So claymore is around the 5th best.

[SneakyDuc]

Personal opinion I freaking love the Crusader. Awesome name looks cools and I get a kick out of missing four shots and blowing their brains out with a hipfire on the next shot.

[BjornDaDwarf]

capn233 wrote...

Original Stikman wrote...

^^^omg dude, so much text. I think you can condense your points a little bit...

Then it wouldn't merit the title "Second Treatise on the Crusader Shotgun."

Since I wrote the First Treatise, it's not like I can criticize  

And here's the tl;dr summary:

Sojiro888 wrote...

So for every gun that does outperform the Crusader on raw damage, it has a significant advantage over them.

[Miniditka77]

BjornDaDwarf wrote...

Miniditka77 wrote...

You know, I actually have been thinking of a good character to try the Crusader on, and I came up with the Turian Sentinel.  You could spec Overload for damage (or at least enough damage to completely strip any mook's shields) and spec the passive for maximum weapon damage and stability.  I haven't tried it yet, but I'm thinking of going 4/6/6/6/4.

Sounds like a great standard TSent build.  Use Overload for mobs, Warp to debuff bosses. 

I would skip Neural Shock on Overload and take Recharge (so mobs don't get knocked down), and go with at least one of the chain evolutions.  Overload staggers long enough to get the second stunned target as he's recovering.   And I would go with the Rank 6 recharge on Warp, it's not going to be a damage dealing power anyways.  

Yes, I was thinking Recharge for R5 Overload might be helpful, especially because the heavy weapon and Tech Armor are going to slow down your power usage a lot.  Same goes for R6 Warp.

Also, I like the idea of taking one chain evolution on Overload, but I would have to be certain that it would do sufficient damage to completely strip the shield on a shielded mook.  If not, then I'd rather have no chain shocking then have to deal with shield gate.

[Catastrophy]

Happy owner of Crusader X. If I get annoyed by bosses that's the gun I bring to the next match. I scored more Prime headshots with this than any SR I have.
It's a tough choice if you're not host and drop into a laggy game, that kills a lot of its potential.

[BjornDaDwarf]

dr_random wrote...

Happy owner of Crusader X. If I get annoyed by bosses that's the gun I bring to the next match. I scored more Prime headshots with this than any SR I have.
It's a tough choice if you're not host and drop into a laggy game, that kills a lot of its potential.

I wish I had it at X.  I've missed maybe 5 or 6 events.  I'm hoping they give out another extra Promotional when the year anniversary hits.  I've had surprisingly consistent distribution in my N7 weapons.  

[Original Twigman]

BjornDaDwarf wrote...

dr_random wrote...

Happy owner of Crusader X. If I get annoyed by bosses that's the gun I bring to the next match. I scored more Prime headshots with this than any SR I have.
It's a tough choice if you're not host and drop into a laggy game, that kills a lot of its potential.

I wish I had it at X.  I've missed maybe 5 or 6 events.  I'm hoping they give out another extra Promotional when the year anniversary hits.  I've had surprisingly consistent distribution in my N7 weapons.  

Same

Valkyrie - III
Valiant - V
Eagle - VI
Hurrican - VI
Crusader - VII

[GunWraith]

TheKillerAngel wrote...

There are no sniper rifles which deal ~1000 damage per shot and have 4 rounds.

There are ones that do more damage with one shot. There is one specific one that does 67 points less damage, has 3 shots, and is far easier to use.


The main problem with the gun is the aiming. Make it act like every other weapon in the game and it becomes a super elite weapon that can act as a sniper replacement. Bioware took the other option, claim that the aiming method is supposed to be that way and keep adding damage to it in an attempt to get people to use it.

Modifié par GunWraith, 19 février 2013 - 10:01 .

[Aerowind]

He said "and".

That's a whole 1000 damage more per clip.

I freaking love my crusader. I honestly didn't even notice it had a firing delay until I came to BSN. Now that I do have that knowledge, I'm wrecking more than ever.

[BjornDaDwarf]

Aerowind wrote...

He said "and".

That's a whole 1000 damage more per clip.

I freaking love my crusader. I honestly didn't even notice it had a firing delay until I came to BSN. Now that I do have that knowledge, I'm wrecking more than ever.

Plus it's regular reload almost matches the BW when Reload Canceled.  If you RC the Crusader, it's very close to the fastest reload in the game.  Though I like the fact that RCing isn't strictly necessary on it.

Original Stikman wrote...

Valkyrie - III
Valiant - V
Eagle - VI
Hurrican - VI
Crusader - VII

Valkyrie - III
Valiant - VII
Eagle - IV
Hurricane - V
Crusader - VI

My wife, for better or worse, has:

Valkyrie - II
Valiant - I
Eagle - VI
Hurricane - III
Crusader - VII

Store loves giving her Eagles and Crusaders.  Does not want her to ever enjoy a Valiant.   

[Cyonan]

Aerowind wrote...

He said "and".

That's a whole 1000 damage more per clip.

I freaking love my crusader. I honestly didn't even notice it had a firing delay until I came to BSN. Now that I do have that knowledge, I'm wrecking more than ever.

Unfortunately the argument relies on the Crusader actually doing 1000 damage per shot, but a Crusader X only does 788.4 base damage.

That's not really close to 1000. The Black Widow is close to 1000 at 923.8 per shot.

[Cohen le Barbare]

It's not 0.2s it's 0.02s: social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/343/index/14238183/4#14259011 It's negligible.

as long as you click when the crosshair is red, you will hit your target. Missing one or two shots with the crusader can be compared to failing a reload cancel or missing a shot with the Claymore/any other gun.