311 réponses à ce sujet

[IIFlash]

Sojiro888 wrote...

IIFlash wrote...

Listing all Pro's and Con's and then basically saying the Con's don't matter.

He is saying that what makes this gun great is that the cons can be compensated for, 

IIFlash wrote...

By this logic I could say the Claymore beats the Crusader hands down in every aspect:

If you could actually negate the issues of the Claymore until they became negligible and then compete with the Crusader on the raw power remaining, yeah.

IIFlash wrote...

Innate armor piercing? who needs it when you have HVB[/quote]You need it because you have a HVB. Innate piercing means it doesn't lose any damage from penetrating cover with its HVB, 

IIFlash wrote...

Damage? it does more than twice that of the Crusader

lolno, it doesn't even deal as much pure dps as the Crusader, let alone twice as much.

IIFlash wrote...

Accuracy? can be compensated for with Smart Choke

No. You'd have to bring the Claymore to the level of accuracy of the Crusader for that to be an actual compensation (not to mention you are sacrificing a mod slot for that).

IIFlash wrote...

Clip & RoF? easily compensated for with reload cancel

Once again you reduce the magnitude of the problem but doesn't negate it. If you suddenly notice a threat after firing, it takes much longer to react to it with a Claymore than a Crusader (even with the Crusader's 0.2s aiming delay). The advantage the Claymore has is that you don't need the trigger discipline to refrain from firing for a quarter of a second, you can just spam the fire button until it works. But if you are a player who can keep his cool and maintain his rythme in this situation, the Crusader will be far better at responding to an emergency.

IIFlash wrote...

Weight? at level 10 they weigh the same and HVB still doesn't add additional weight to original weapons

So your point here is that there's a bug working in favor of the Claymore?

IIFlash wrote...

several maps aren't large enough that you'll be forced to choose targets beyond your effective range often at all.

But if you look at the damage tests done, you'll notice that on rw power alone it is the 6th best weapon in the game

By your response I can see you entirely missed the point of my post. To argue against the points I had made only reinforces what I said about Cons being compensated for. As I stated earlier, the Avenger's cons can be compensated for, this doesn't mean it's accurate or effective in comparison. This applies to the Crusader as well.
Ignoring this is why I stated "by this logic".

For the sake of it I will provide some counter arguments to yours:

Armor Piercing - Claymore (HVB) has enough raw damage that it can still kill most targets though cover with one shot, and even with the with the penalty it still does more damage than a Crusader shot.

Damage: Damage and DPS are not entirely the same thing, having higher DPS thanks to multiple shots doesn't mean it will kill a Phantom as fast a high damage single shot weapon, since it is more dependant on being able to shoot consistently to sustain that DPS on some targets. By the time you shoot your 2nd Crusader headshot (based on what others have said takes to kill a Phantom) that Phantom is already dead from 1 Claymore headshot.

Accuracy: The Smart Choke does not need to provide pinpoint accuracy to compensate, there are only  a few maps large enough that you can't effectively headshot enemies spawning at great distance

Weight: Bug or no bug, if a class can carry a mid-level Crusader (as most of you seem to have) then you can carry a Claymore with HVB


And my entire point from the start, in which the Crusader lacks
In-game application > Numbers on paper

Modifié par IIFlash, 20 février 2013 - 04:10 .

[IIFlash]

dr_random wrote...

Happy owner of Crusader X. If I get annoyed by bosses that's the gun I bring to the next match. I scored more Prime headshots with this than any SR I have.
It's a tough choice if you're not host and drop into a laggy game, that kills a lot of its potential.

This may also attribute to my dislike of the gun, since my internet sucks, so I can't host without the game ending up like this:
Me ---------------------------------------
P1 ---------
P2 ----
P3 ---
even with friends 

Modifié par IIFlash, 20 février 2013 - 04:18 .

[Original Twigman]

^^ if a phantom isn't close, or any non-mook enemy, a claymore won't kill it at a distance without some severe help. each bullet gets a penalty when hitting armor, the further away the enemy the less damage each pellet does. so the greater the spread, the less damage. You are just talking about headshotting low-tier enemies. you won't hit a pyro from mid-long distance and kill it in one hit. its a neglible point.

the thing that the crusader has on the claymroe, as does the raider, pirahna, reegar, & wraith, is speed. the claymore will take a long time just to kill one enemy due to the reload cancelling/one shot. And if you botch the reload cancel (happens on console) then you are screwed for a few more seconds. This is a non-numbers application where the claymore doesn't do as well vs. its counterparts.

Ultimatley, arguing for the claymore over the crusader isn't great. Its an overhyped weapon that takes little skill to use. A talon, while deals less damage, is going to be better overall than a claymore, for example.

[MurderHouse]

Awesome I appreciate the diligence, The Crusader is a very underated shotgun.

[BjornDaDwarf]

Cohen le Barbare wrote...

It's not 0.2s it's 0.02s: social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/343/index/14238183/4#14259011 It's negligible.

as long as you click when the crosshair is red, you will hit your target. Missing one or two shots with the crusader can be compared to failing a reload cancel or missing a shot with the Claymore/any other gun.

Thanks for finding that.  I knew that a dev had commented on it, but couldn't remember exactly where or what was said.

[GunWraith]

In the end, it is simply going to come down to those who like it and those who don't. Both groups have their reasons, so if you like to use it, cool. Just don't expect to convince us otherwise.

I simply will never use it unless they fix the aiming method, nor do I believe that out of every single gun in the game they gave this one a special method of aiming on purpose.

[IIFlash]

GunWraith wrote...

In the end, it is simply going to come down to those who like it and those who don't. Both groups have their reasons, so if you like to use it, cool. Just don't expect to convince us otherwise.

I simply will never use it unless they fix the aiming method, nor do I believe that out of every single gun in the game they gave this one a special method of aiming on purpose.

Agreed, this is the reason I wasn't going to bother in the first place, IMO the Crusader is trash and nothing anyone says will convince me otherwise. I expect no different from anyone that likes it. It is a moot point.
I will try it again when I get it to X and make my own judgement as usual.

In the end I will just agree to disagree, I am done with this nonsense. Feel free to reply to what I have said, just don't expect me to actually read it.

[Tallgeese_VII]

Ok. Just tried Crusader on my Krogan Sentinel against Gold Geth.
Full weapon damage + Shotgun rail amp III + Incendinary ammo IV.

Good against Prime and good long range weapon. ..but its high accuracy is really its own enemy, there is no forgiveness when you aim for head and miss.
Delay definitly affects the accurate aim especially on moving target. Very very weird and tricky.

2 headshot kills all enemies... but if you miss or just aim for body.. take 4-5 shot to take down a Hunter. Must shoot at least 3-4 times to takedown a bomber.

My usual Claymore on the other hand... quite different.

This weapon probably operates very very different(convinient) for PC players.

[Ogelia]

 well i try  my Crusader IX yesterday with my  Batarian soldier and Geth Trooper and i was rly rly disapointed, y its good on long distances but on is rly hard hit any moving humanoid  target  and  without scope  is  rly hard make HS on long distances. On other side with my Wraith X  i have much better dmg output per shot  and have nearly  no problem hit moving targets. On medium/long  distances is only little harder  hit HS and on  medium its no diff betwen   this two shotguns in accuracy  and on short distances,  Wraith is far better with his bigger dmg have much better stoping pwr and much easier   hiting HS and bc lots of maps ar  smal or medium at size   its rly downgrade   bonuses which have  crusader thx  his accuracy on long distaces  and make Wraith much mor  usseful . From my Side wiev is  Crusader only crap  compare  it to the wraith its worst  in mook killing  not better boss kille , well as bos killer  are claymore still best  on medium distaces.


With this  Two chars i dont have problm score over 150k per  R/R/U gold match  butt when  i take Crusader i have problem score over  100k. Well problem is  mebe in my playstyle i am not rly camp player, bc after i start play lots of with AV  i stard play  agresive style with all other cars too  still in move  and atacking on medium short range mostly. And wheny you are moving target are moving with diferent angles and  routes is rly  big lotery hit  target with crusader but no problem with wraith. 

[Zorinho20_CRO]

I use Crusader sometimes for fun,but I just don´t click with that weapon.
I´m pretty decent TSol player,but when I played vs Cerberus(Gold) only with Crusader V,I never felt so helpless,especially against Phantom rush on wave 10.
It was great vs normal mobs and Atlases,though.

[LawShadow]

Comming from a heavy javelin, wraith, claymore user often paired with a GI or GE.
I can say the crusader is my favourite "shotgun" it came in three phases first I started to like it.
Then I hated the d@mn thing due to the firing delay.

Then I remembered my heavy javelin use how I disliked it so much in the beginning but after numerous tries I finnaly "understood" its potential. Then I tried the crusader again with the lessons learned from my javelin. And oh boy this weapon shredds! once you know how to use it. It will reward you when your aim is fair and PUNISHES hard when you srew up.

If your a javelin user who also takes out moving targets and head shot them KNOWING its delay its kind of similar with the crusader. As I recall the description of the weapon states "only used by highly trained soldiers" this means a longer learning curve then most weapons heck even longer then the javelin imo.

you can take out a phantom with two well placed headshots if you force her to bubble. This gun is a hidden treasure if you know "how to find it" it outshines the claymore Imo and vs the wraith well I love the wraith but at Long range it lacks punch unlike the crusader. Poping heads with the crusader is fun. This is not the type of weapon to pick up and expect wonders straight out of the box. You simply love it or hate it.






You can take out phantoms with 2 well aimed headshots if you force a phantom to use her bubble.

[LawShadow]

That last sentence shouldnt be there srry its a mess with posting a message with a cell phone.

[Bryan Johnson]

Have to say personally it is just about my fav gun in the game. I typically run it with a MQI since the arc can remove shields and then the cloak damage bonus.

[Tarelgeth]

I use the Crusader heavily on my melee Krogan Sentinel. Need to use a shotgun for that awesome melee mod attachment, but anything that you're close to you're going to clobber. Solution: A shotgun that you can use on things at range instead of just things up close.

[JC_aka_fps_john]

It's a nice idea, but the firing delay ruins it.


Now where's my Saber?

[BjornDaDwarf]

Tallgeese_VII wrote...

Ok. Just tried Crusader on my Krogan Sentinel against Gold Geth.
Full weapon damage + Shotgun rail amp III + Incendinary ammo IV.

Good against Prime and good long range weapon. ..but its high accuracy is really its own enemy, there is no forgiveness when you aim for head and miss.
Delay definitly affects the accurate aim especially on moving target. Very very weird and tricky.

2 headshot kills all enemies... but if you miss or just aim for body.. take 4-5 shot to take down a Hunter. Must shoot at least 3-4 times to takedown a bomber.

My usual Claymore on the other hand... quite different.

This weapon probably operates very very different(convinient) for PC players.

I'm on console, and obviously get along fine with it. 

I find that Incendiary is one of the poorer ammos to run on it. I favor Disruptor/Phasic/AP/Drill/Warp.  I think it's a gun where you want the damage up front, not as a DoT.  I've run it against Geth/Gold as a Krosent, and did fine.

Bryan Johnson wrote...

Have to say personally it is just about my fav gun in the game. I typically run it with a MQI since the arc can remove shields and then the cloak damage bonus.

Awesome!  Are there devs who play who hate it as much as some of the players do?  

[Miniditka77]

Cohen le Barbare wrote...

It's not 0.2s it's 0.02s: social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/343/index/14238183/4#14259011 It's negligible.

as long as you click when the crosshair is red, you will hit your target. Missing one or two shots with the crusader can be compared to failing a reload cancel or missing a shot with the Claymore/any other gun.

You're correct on the second part - if the crosshair is red, you'll get a hit.  The problem is that you can have the crosshair directly over the enemy's face and it won't be red... and it will miss.  So I disagree on the "it's negligible" part - unless there's something else besides the firing delay that is throwing off the Crusader's accuracy.

[KiraTsukasa]

I still remember when the Crusader first came out and everyone hated it. I got it during the second operation and loved it. Now everyone seems to love it.

[BjornDaDwarf]

KiraTsukasa wrote...

Now everyone seems to love it.

Nope, still plenty of haters around if this thread has shown anything.  But it's nice to see that there are plenty of people who have come around to liking it.  

[Bryan Johnson]

BjornDaDwarf wrote...

Bryan Johnson wrote...

Have to say personally it is just about my fav gun in the game. I typically run it with a MQI since the arc can remove shields and then the cloak damage bonus.

Awesome!  Are there devs who play who hate it as much as some of the players do?  

I play with approximately 8 devs on a semi regular basis on PC.
2 of them would list the Crusader as their favorite gun (including NPlewes)

Modifié par Bryan Johnson, 20 février 2013 - 04:56 .

[Tallgeese_VII]

BjornDaDwarf wrote...

Tallgeese_VII wrote...

Ok. Just tried Crusader on my Krogan Sentinel against Gold Geth.
Full weapon damage + Shotgun rail amp III + Incendinary ammo IV.

Good against Prime and good long range weapon. ..but its high accuracy is really its own enemy, there is no forgiveness when you aim for head and miss.
Delay definitly affects the accurate aim especially on moving target. Very very weird and tricky.

2 headshot kills all enemies... but if you miss or just aim for body.. take 4-5 shot to take down a Hunter. Must shoot at least 3-4 times to takedown a bomber.

My usual Claymore on the other hand... quite different.

This weapon probably operates very very different(convinient) for PC players.

I'm on console, and obviously get along fine with it. 

I find that Incendiary is one of the poorer ammos to run on it. I favor Disruptor/Phasic/AP/Drill/Warp.  I think it's a gun where you want the damage up front, not as a DoT.  I've run it against Geth/Gold as a Krosent, and did fine.

I used Incendiary ammo because I wanted to see how my Crusader V functions(with full damage spec + amp) and not phasic ammo.
With phasic ammo it will be much better weapon for sure.

[HolyAvenger]

Crusader is the only non-SR I use Phasics on.

[heybigmoney]

Amazing against reapers and collectors. The delay doesn't matter because the enemies all have hitboxes the size of barns.

Against cerb and geth, lots of smaller enemies, the delay really holds it back.

[BjornDaDwarf]

Bryan Johnson wrote...

BjornDaDwarf wrote...

Bryan Johnson wrote...

Have to say personally it is just about my fav gun in the game. I typically run it with a MQI since the arc can remove shields and then the cloak damage bonus.

Awesome!  Are there devs who play who hate it as much as some of the players do?  

I play with approximately 8 devs on a semi regular basis on PC.
2 of them would list the Crusader as their favorite gun (including NPlewes)

But everyone knows that NPlewes makes any gun awesome.  

[tevix]

For some reason whenever I look at it I go "egh..not right now". Then when I actually decide to run with it (I like it on the destroyer sometimes, can really pile on the damage on bosses) I end up going on crusades with it...(ha...ahh that was so bad).

It's a fun high reward weapon that makes ribbons of enemies with headshots.