303 réponses à ce sujet

[GreyLycanTrope]

Steelcan wrote...

Tali is a freaking admiral. She should not be on the Normandy or the front lines. Miranda had every reason to be on the Normandy and fighting Cerberus.

Tali is an admiral without a fleet, outside of voting and advising the other admirals(something she can do via phonecall) she has no reponsiblity, it's why she was the acting ambassador later.

Though i don't disagree about Miranda.

[o Ventus]

Greylycantrope wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Tali is a freaking admiral. She should not be on the Normandy or the front lines. Miranda had every reason to be on the Normandy and fighting Cerberus.

Tali is an admiral without a fleet, outside of voting and advising the other admirals(something she can do via phonecall) she has no reponsiblity, it's why she was the acting ambassador later.

Though i don't disagree about Miranda.

Actually, Tali as acting ambassador makes sense for her not being on the squad, hypothetically speaking. It's not like the other admirals can do it, what with their fleets.

[JamesFaith]

o Ventus wrote...

Their reaction isn't relevant. My point being Bioware's blatant disregard for their own reasoning. 

In regards to your 2nd point, way to blow my posts out of context.

And how exactly BW disregard their own reasoning?

Did they ever say that ONLY reason why they didn't used ALL ME2 squaddies is suicide mission? I personally saw this reasoning only from fans defending BW, I never hear it directly from BW.

Maybe I'm mistaken, but again it should easily be same thing like that 16 ending faus pax, which many people here are still considering real quote from BW.

 

[crimzontearz]

I liked them all minus Ash

[o Ventus]

There's the part where you cherry picked 1 quote from my entire post and ignored the context in which it was used. Did you at all read the post I was replying to? He explicitly says "excessively late fanbase that demanded it". You then used this to start a spiel about Miranda fans being equally whiny, claiming that I was insulting somebody.

If that isn't a strawman argument, I don't know what is.

[GreyLycanTrope]

o Ventus wrote...
Actually, Tali as acting ambassador makes sense for her not being on the squad, hypothetically speaking. It's not like the other admirals can do it, what with their fleets.

A task they can easily relegate to someone form the Quarian conclave. Tali has experiance running ops against the Reapers, doesn't make sense to stick her with a desk job, least not to me.

Modifié par Greylycantrope, 19 février 2013 - 02:13 .

[L2 Sentinel]

Vlk3 wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

Rauhel wrote...

Some might say it's kind of nice to work with professionals that already come loyal to the mission and don't need you to sort out their daddy issues personal problems.

God forbid somebody want to clear their head of baggage when they're about to embark on a mission with survival odds pegged as "slim to none".

I would say that Thane was already loyal to the mission when I recruited him. As were some others, for example Miranda, Jacob. It's only natural that before a suicide mission, people think about their lives and try to deal with the things that they would like to fix. And even though they want to solve these problems, they don't say - do it or I'll leave your ship. And Garrus had his loyalty mission, too. Does it make him unprofessional? I have no reason to believe that at the end of ME2 my squadmates weren't loyal to Shepard, or better - I have no reason to believe that Garrus, Liara and VS were better friends for my Shepard than some of those she met in ME2. The looks on their faces, especially Jack, after suicide mission tell a lot about the respect Shepard earned, not got immediately upon the first meeting: "Oh my god, Shepard, you're so fantastic, I love you so much, we should be bestest friends forever"

Sorry, I couldn't help that. I like Liara, Garrus and others, but in ME2 we met new people, and I'm sure as hell they would like to join Shepard again.There was no reason to throw them away in ME3 ad their excuses for not joining Shepard are far-fetched. Miranda is the best example, I'd also say that Thane wouldn't like to wait in the hospital for death, but this is not the place for such discussion.

Thane was professional from the start, but I still had to invest in him in order to keep him that way, and I didn't get the sense that it payed off when I did the Suicide Mission. There were no tasks for him to do. He was just there. Personally, he felt like a waste of time. His value was only ever realized in ME3. I know it sounds cold, but reuniting him with his son felt like a distraction. I'm trying to prevent the extinction of every advanced race in the galaxy.

Jack was a project. I always felt like she was more of a liability than an asset, but at least she had a task in the suicide mission (even if I used Samara instead). Like Thane, I didn't appreciate Jack until her appearance in ME3. She found something to care about. She became likable. Both she and Thane had perfectly good reason for not joining the crew. Thane's can no longer perform in combat effectively, and would like endanger the team. Jack is responsible for her students. Both are valid reasons not to join.

Garrus was more professional in ME3 than he was in ME2. I'm not a major fan of revenge plots, and as much as I like Garrus, derailing my mission so Garrus can try to get revenge was a pain in the ass. Same for Zaeed, but for him it was a price for his services. He's a mercenary. I think of Zaeed and Kasumi's loyalty missions as recruitment missions really, since they were promised help before they agreed to join the team.

The VS wasn't "Oh my god, Shepard, you're so fantastic, I love you so much, we should be bestest friends forever" when they first appeared in ME3, either. You earned their trust along the way. You didn't have to go out of the way in order to obtain it. I have no excuses for Liara. She was obsessed with my Shepard even though I recruited her right before Ilos, barely talked to her, and didn't do LotSB.

No one can accuse me of being a Miranda fan, but even I think that she should have joined the crew in ME3. Jacob was unecessary, but Miranda had much to offer in our fight against Cerberus. She still would have had her confrontation with her father, so the excuses for keeping her off the ship seemed weak.

People seem to be mistaking my fondness of the ME1/ME3 crew with distaste for the ME2 crew. I like the characters in ME2 just fine. I just don't agree that they are superior to the crew we had in ME3 just because they had loyalty missions.

Modifié par Rauhel, 19 février 2013 - 02:28 .

[DeinonSlayer]

Greylycantrope wrote...

o Ventus wrote...
Actually, Tali as acting ambassador makes sense for her not being on the squad, hypothetically speaking. It's not like the other admirals can do it, what with their fleets.

A task they can easily relegate to someone form the Quarian conclave. Tali has experiance running ops against the Reapers, doesn't make sense to stick her with a desk job, least not to me.

Hypothetically, it makes some sense, but I'm glad they didn't do that with Tali. Just as I'm sure Liara's fans are glad they didn't shuffle her off to act as the shadow broker for the entire game.

[Dean_the_Young]

Running ops against the Reapers? When did she do that?

She was a subordinate in someone else's op against... well, a Geth army, mercs, and some fancy husks. But she wasn't even a viable squad leader during those periods, and how they relate to the Reaper War is unclear.

[nickkcin11]

I think Mass Effect 1 did the squad mechanic best. Despite the claims that ME1 had the smallest amount of dialogue, it sure doesn't feel that way. Characters interject more frequently during story missions and they actually speak during side quests (something that almost never happened in ME2). Also, when just walking around, you can always talk to them. I loved this feature (especially since some places they actually say something really interesting), and I have no idea why they removed it. And the elevators, however infamous, provided another opportunity to hear the characters talk to each other and feel more lively. I was always confused as to why they got rid of this feature, I'd much rather sit through a slow ass elevator than watch a slow ass loading screen showing my progress up a slow ass elevator. And I feel that every time I replay ME1 (so many times now I can't remember) I get new dialogue. For instance, I always have talked to Kaiden about his BaAt training or however you spell it. But just this last playthrough did I finally hear that he knew this girl, Rahna, that he fancied. And it was her arm that got broken by the Turian, not just some random girl's. So that's why he stood up and confronted the guy. And it made me care about Kaiden more, I'll actually feel bad when I have to make the Virmire decision and leave him behind. In the other Mass Effects, I never really get a lot of dialogue I missed.

Opposite ME1, ME2 did the squad mechanic worst. There were way too many squadmembers, and only a handful of them were as interesting as the original six (Legion who you don't even get till near the end, Mordin, and Miranda). That's not to say I hated the others, I like them, but not as much as the squaddies from ME1. And then there's Samara and Jacob who are the most boring characters ever. And contrary to ME1's "less dialogue feels like more", ME2 has a lot of dialogue with all the characters onboard the Normandy, at least as much as in ME1, and then they each have a loyalty mission which is all about them. The problem is, it never feels like you really get to know them. They don't talk much after their loyalty mission (unless you romance them) which never made sense to me. Wouldn't you want to open up more with a person now that you're more loyal? And they don't really comment on any mission which pisses me off. They seem so absorbed in their own little world. But the main reason I dislike the squad mechanic is they never show any unity. It doesn't even feel like a team. The mission debriefings only have Miranda and Jacob at them. It's like Shepard sent out a memo to everyone and only the two Cerberus people showed up to offer little in terms of valuable input. It's not until the Suicide mission (which actually was handled beautifully, and to me represents the pinnacle of my Mass Effect experience right next to Virmire) that everyone joins as a group to discuss stuff. And it felt so epic! If only they had done that more often.

Mass Effect 3 did some squad mechanics very well, stuff that I felt they fixed greatly from ME2, but they tried to fix what wasn't broken. The squad moves around, congregates and talks to each other. Sometimes they talk to each other from the intercom. Squad members frequently comment on the current war situation onboard the Normandy. They also establish their own relationships with other members (Joker/EDI, Garrus/Tali, and Ken/Gabby) which made them seem a lot more alive. They finally talk on side quests and during missions often. Heck, they even have special moments with Shepard; they come to his cabin to talk heart to heart, and they share special time on the Citadel. For the first time, you really get the impression that these are more than just Shepard's teammates. They're his dearest friends. So with all this great stuff they did, where did they go wrong? The stuff no one said to change, the conversations on the Normandy, were drastically lacking. Ashley, my romance option may have had 2 conversations with me on the Normandy, and one of those conversations happened when she was totally ****-faced. Great, 1 "meaningful" conversation. I learned nothing new about Ash. And I felt that way for the majority of ME3. Aside from the new characters, I never was able to talk with the established characters all that much (the conversations common in ME1 and 2) and as a result I hardly learned anything about them. I don't think I learned a damn thing about Ashley, Liara or Garrus tbqh. I mean sure, all those characters had great scenes but I felt that there character didn't really develop. Yes they all became something more; Garrus became a bro, Ashley didn't trust you, and Liara became a shoulder to cry on. But they should've became even more than that. And because they didn't really progress, the end result is my being disappointed about ME3. BW said they'd make the squad smaller, so that they could really focus on fleshing out the given characters. But that never happened. And I feel that Miranda could've and should've been added, they don't have an excuse because it's not like the squadmates had THAT much dialogue. I also think they forced EDI into the role of a squadmember because of the endings, they wanted you to like a synthetic. But you see, she never really felt like she should be a squadmember, she was so forced and it came out of left-field. And I doubt many people used her. I wasn't too bothered by James Vega. I'm not quite sure why he had to be so buff. He wouldn't be so bad except he seems like such a meathead. Basically, the makeup of the squad didn't ****** me off, but how they used some of the members did.

tl;dr ---> I feel that the size/makeup of the squad doesn't disappoint me, it was how that squad was handled.

Modifié par nickkcin11, 19 février 2013 - 02:28 .

[L2 Sentinel]

Steelcan wrote...

Tali is a freaking admiral. She should not be on the Normandy or the front lines. Miranda had every reason to be on the Normandy and fighting Cerberus.

Well, Tali could be exiled, in which case she probably should have been on the Normandy ages ago. Still, I agree with this. I like Tali, but I don't think her joining the Normandy was appropriate. She should have had a similar role to Wrex, and her romance should have been long distance.

[Dean_the_Young]

JamesFaith wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

Their reaction isn't relevant. My point being Bioware's blatant disregard for their own reasoning. 

In regards to your 2nd point, way to blow my posts out of context.

And how exactly BW disregard their own reasoning?

Did they ever say that ONLY reason why they didn't used ALL ME2 squaddies is suicide mission? I personally saw this reasoning only from fans defending BW, I never hear it directly from BW.

Maybe I'm mistaken, but again it should easily be same thing like that 16 ending faus pax, which many people here are still considering real quote from BW.

 

Not to mention that having a general reason against doing something isn't invalidated by the exceptions. Tali and Garrus could have been kept as squad mates because they had other things in their favor that the other killable squadmates didn't: that would just be extenuating circumstances, not a disproof.

[DeinonSlayer]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Running ops against the Reapers? When did she do that?

She was a subordinate in someone else's op against... well, a Geth army, mercs, and some fancy husks. But she wasn't even a viable squad leader during those periods, and how they relate to the Reaper War is unclear.

Honestly, if we're discounting husks and collectors, who has experience against the Reapers? Even Shepard doesn't before ME3.

[Steelcan]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Greylycantrope wrote...

o Ventus wrote...
Actually, Tali as acting ambassador makes sense for her not being on the squad, hypothetically speaking. It's not like the other admirals can do it, what with their fleets.

A task they can easily relegate to someone form the Quarian conclave. Tali has experiance running ops against the Reapers, doesn't make sense to stick her with a desk job, least not to me.

Hypothetically, it makes some sense, but I'm glad they didn't do that with Tali. Just as I'm sure Liara's fans are glad they didn't shuffle her off to act as the shadow broker for the entire game.

. Not entirely successful on that.  She leaves the Normandy twice.  Once for Eden Prime, again for Thessia.

[Steelcan]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Running ops against the Reapers? When did she do that?

She was a subordinate in someone else's op against... well, a Geth army, mercs, and some fancy husks. But she wasn't even a viable squad leader during those periods, and how they relate to the Reaper War is unclear.

Honestly, if we're discounting husks and collectors, who has experience against the Reapers? Even Shepard doesn't before ME3.

. JavikB)

[Dean_the_Young]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Running ops against the Reapers? When did she do that?

She was a subordinate in someone else's op against... well, a Geth army, mercs, and some fancy husks. But she wasn't even a viable squad leader during those periods, and how they relate to the Reaper War is unclear.

Honestly, if we're discounting husks and collectors, who has experience against the Reapers? Even Shepard doesn't before ME3.

I was referring to her running ops, as in being command, but what you said seems pretty much correct to me. Nothing Shepard did in ME1 or ME2 was analogous to the total war situation of the Reaper War... part of what makes the whole 'you've been in the trenches' claim by Anderson so eye-roll worthy.

The closest analog the living galaxy has seen to the Reaper invasion style is, well, the Turian military, and the Geth Invasion. And Javik, of course. Shepard's crew, though... not so much.

[Steelcan]

This is actually one of things Cerberus really did right. They know that the **** is going to hit the fan, so TIM upgrades his troops and starts arming Cerberus for galactic war. Sadly they directed that against the Alliance, not the Reapers.

[DeinonSlayer]

Steelcan wrote...

This is actually one of things Cerberus really did right. They know that the **** is going to hit the fan, so TIM upgrades his troops and starts arming Cerberus for galactic war. Sadly they directed that against the Alliance, not the Reapers.

I liked Dean's idea of a balance between Cerberus and Alliance legitimacy... replaying the Benning mission is so much more disappointing now that I've read his version.

[Aaleel]

I liked the ME1 crew the most anyway, so I was happy, if they had given Wrex back to I would have been ecstatic. Only one I wish would have come along other than that is Kasumi.

Modifié par Aaleel, 19 février 2013 - 02:37 .

[Steelcan]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

This is actually one of things Cerberus really did right. They know that the **** is going to hit the fan, so TIM upgrades his troops and starts arming Cerberus for galactic war. Sadly they directed that against the Alliance, not the Reapers.

I liked Dean's idea of a balance between Cerberus and Alliance legitimacy... replaying the Benning mission is so much more disappointing now that I've read his version.

. Given Cerberus' treatment in ME3 I've just resorted to a head canon.  The Reaper are gradually co-opting the signal Cerberus is using to control its soldiers.  On Benning they have successfully turned a large number and so they carry out the Reaper's goals.  Fits evidence

[DeinonSlayer]

Steelcan wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

This is actually one of things Cerberus really did right. They know that the **** is going to hit the fan, so TIM upgrades his troops and starts arming Cerberus for galactic war. Sadly they directed that against the Alliance, not the Reapers.

I liked Dean's idea of a balance between Cerberus and Alliance legitimacy... replaying the Benning mission is so much more disappointing now that I've read his version.

. Given Cerberus' treatment in ME3 I've just resorted to a head canon.  The Reaper are gradually co-opting the signal Cerberus is using to control its soldiers.  On Benning they have successfully turned a large number and so they carry out the Reaper's goals.  Fits evidence

That's what I tell myself too, but "lolindoctrination" gets tiresome however it manifests itself.

[ElementL09]

I would have liked a good mix of squadmates from both Mass Effect and Mass Effect 2 with the addition of EDI and Javik as sqaudmates as well. I don't really see why James is there in the first place. Like instead of a Krogan Squadmate, we get him. More options for players who played the other games in the trilogy as for as squadmates were concerend would have been great.

[GreyLycanTrope]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Running ops against the Reapers? When did she do that?

She was a subordinate in someone else's op against... well, a Geth army, mercs, and some fancy husks. But she wasn't even a viable squad leader during those periods, and how they relate to the Reaper War is unclear.

Would you prefer participating in ops? She has experiance fighting their ground forces, they still use fancy husks in ME3 which is basically what the Collector are in ME2 so she at least has some idea of what she's up against, as much as anyone including Shep does at least.