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Would you have supported the Dalatrass if she gave valid points?


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#226
simonrana

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Steelcan wrote...

simonrana wrote...
Are you being willfully ignorant?! We know a lot about krogan psychology from the game - they are naturally extremely violent. Male krogan aren't even capable of travel with their own kind in the limited spaces of a space ship unless they're knocked out with drugs. And pretty much their entire remembered cultural history is one that celebrated violence.

If this is to be changed, if Krogan society is to ever to become compatible with that of the council races (humanity included) then their culture would need to evolve towards a more peaceful ideology. Do you really see this happening whilst they retain the cultural ideology that it's okay to leave your young to fight to the death?

Also, if the parents aren't traumatised by watching their young kill each other, I can't how or why they would be traumatised by giving birth to still-borns. The only thing traumatic about the latter scenario would be that they failed to give birth to any young, which is quite a different thing.

. I never said I agreed with this idea.  I said it would work to reduce population growth, nothing more.

So then I ask you again, as "the Shepard that cured the genophage" how did you envision the Krogan overcoming their population control issue in a way that didn't make you fear for the future of every other race in the galaxy?

EDIT: If you just went with it because of the happy vibes you got from the game for making the decision then I understand (I also cure the genophage in paragon playthroughs for the same reason) but this is a discussion about making a logical in-game decision.

Modifié par simonrana, 04 mars 2013 - 03:34 .


#227
DeinonSlayer

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Steelcan wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Trav-O wrote...

You don't see enough of the Salarian troubles and life to build them a strong case. Despite wanting multiple playthroughs, I was never able to kill Wrex on Vermire. I wanted to, then when i got down to it, twice, I couldn't do it. So, no, I somehow have been taken in by Krogan bromance.

Just start a playthrough in ME2. Wrex is dead, the opposite-gender VS is alive, the Council and Rachni Queen are dead.

. Why I can't do it.

Life is so much easier with Gibbed...

#228
Darth_Trethon

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Artifex_Imperius wrote...

even if the krogans were not that violent and only defensive. they multiply too fast and they'd probably strip a planets resource in a year or two. entire systems in decades.
and then you rememeber the phrase
"We impose order on the chaos of organic evolution.." and
"You represent chaos, we represent order. Every organic civilization must be harvested in order to bring order to the chaos."
these quotes make more sense when dealing with the genophage.


Hence why organics need to learn to regulate themselves.

#229
Steelcan

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simonrana wrote...
So then I ask you again, as "the Shepard that cured the genophage" how did you envision the Krogan overcoming their population control issue in a way that didn't make you fear for the future of every other race in the galaxy?

EDIT: If you just went with it because of the happy vibes you got from the game for making the decision then I understand (I also cure the genophage in paragon playthroughs for the same reason) but this is a discussion about making a logical in-game decision.

. I cure it because I have faith that Wrex and Eve will find a way.  Not entirely grounded in logic or reason, but this is one instance where I let my Shepard be optimistic for the future.  It cleared up his scars for a day or two.

#230
Saiyan1126

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Even Wrex as a BFF can raise some alarms when he mentions "a krogan empire" and "the council can't expect us to say here forever".

#231
DeinonSlayer

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simonrana wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

I never said I agreed with this idea.  I said it would work to reduce population growth, nothing more.

So then I ask you again, as "the Shepard that cured the genophage" how did you envision the Krogan overcoming their population control issue in a way that didn't make you fear for the future of every other race in the galaxy?

It helps that they're demilitarized, and the cure is confined to Tuchanka alone. They have no ships to spread themselves around, and (for a time at least) their relay is disabled. I say, let them sort themselves out on their own planet before anyone even considers letting them spread. Any Krogan who hasn't yet received the cure is free to go where they wish. Any who goes to Tuchanka stays there until such time that the Council (or whatever replaces it) decides it's safe to open the gate.

#232
simonrana

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Steelcan wrote...

simonrana wrote...
So then I ask you again, as "the Shepard that cured the genophage" how did you envision the Krogan overcoming their population control issue in a way that didn't make you fear for the future of every other race in the galaxy?

EDIT: If you just went with it because of the happy vibes you got from the game for making the decision then I understand (I also cure the genophage in paragon playthroughs for the same reason) but this is a discussion about making a logical in-game decision.

. I cure it because I have faith that Wrex and Eve will find a way.  Not entirely grounded in logic or reason, but this is one instance where I let my Shepard be optimistic for the future.  It cleared up his scars for a day or two.

As I thought.

In which case you really should've just said something like "I always cure the genophage because doing so makes me feel like an awesome hero and the bonus paragon points are handy!"

Instead you've argued against logic points, even though in your outlook you have no interest in logic.

#233
WarGriffin

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I find it funny, Some of you are making the arguement that the Dalatrass is demonized and stereotyped... and then turnaround Stereotype the Krogan -They are genetically incapable of getting along!- You are right, The Dalatrass is clearly written to be the villian, but lets be honest at that point Renegade path = Sociopath.

Wrex isn't the only Krogan who sees, that thier previous lifestyle has gotten them nothing. He wouldn't be Overlord of Tuchanka and the Krogan if he literally had to beat every clan into submission.

Yes there are Krogan who are gonna want revenge and try to take over the Galaxy... What race isn't like that? **** give it Twenty years in an AU the Alliance will be the bad guys.

But there are plenty of Krogan that just want thier lives to go on. Hell Charr is a university kid!

#234
Steelcan

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simonrana wrote...
As I thought.

In which case you really should've just said something like "I always cure the genophage because doing so makes me feel like an awesome hero and the bonus paragon points are handy!"

Instead you've argued against logic points, even though in your outlook you have no interest in logic.

. Except that's not it at all.  Optimism =\\= I cure because its he right thing to do.  I cure because I hope things will work out better this time.

#235
Darth_Trethon

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DeinonSlayer wrote...

I hear you - there is ample reason to question their trustworthiness, as there is with the Krogan. My point was about emotional manipulation. What I was referring to was the other side of the morning war. The third game makes no mention of how the Geth wiped out 99% of the entire Quarian population in the space of a year. That wasn't self-defense - they treated the entire species as a threat and acted to eliminate that threat. They spent centuries killing anyone who entered their territory without making any attempt to communicate and did nothing about the heretics until they were directly threatened by them - if Legion alone could take on the entire Heretic collective, I don't see why the Geth couldn't have acted sooner (and if the Geth Heretics were really a 5% minority, why does the Geth war asset lose 1/3rd of its value if you destroy them?). None of this is brought up in dialogue in ME3 - you have to read the codex and do the math on the casualty figures yourself or be familiar with the extended universe to even be aware of it.

Victus tells us about the last stand on Menae, the Krogan use of asteroids as weapons in the rebellions. He provides a balance to the Genophage arc which the Geth arc lacks. Really, there should have been a chance to question Gerrel, or for Raan to talk about something besides fleet composition. Get the history from both sides, even if one side or both has a distorted or biased view of events.


Yes we do lack a lot of details on the Quarian-Geth war. It is also unclear how early the reapers started infecting and changing some of the geth....the rachni seem to have been driven insane by the reapers and Sovereign was always around indoctrinating whoever it could and pulling strings and manipulating things wherever it could. It is not outside the realm of possibility that it had a hand in the morning war too....and I might be looking too much into it. Either way the situation as we face it certainly has several recipes for disaster in allowing reaper-changed geth to run around. They are free and the reapers do not mean them well so they have reason to cooperate and ally with organics against the reapers....but what happens after? Would they stay friendly? That is something very difficult to trust....ultimately it's about survival and I take no chances with reapers or reaper tech.

#236
simonrana

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Steelcan wrote...

simonrana wrote...
As I thought.

In which case you really should've just said something like "I always cure the genophage because doing so makes me feel like an awesome hero and the bonus paragon points are handy!"

Instead you've argued against logic points, even though in your outlook you have no interest in logic.

. Except that's not it at all.  Optimism == I cure because its he right thing to do.  I cure because I hope things will work out better this time.

But you can't think of a single good way that the Krogan can manage their populations without the genophage. In such a case handwaving it all away and hoping for the best isn't optimism, it's literally blind faith. And you're following blind faith on a matter that logic (or pragmatism, pessimism, whatever you want to call it) suggests will doom everyone, even the Krogan in the long-term.

#237
Steelcan

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simonrana wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

simonrana wrote...
As I thought.

In which case you really should've just said something like "I always cure the genophage because doing so makes me feel like an awesome hero and the bonus paragon points are handy!"

Instead you've argued against logic points, even though in your outlook you have no interest in logic.

. Except that's not it at all.  Optimism == I cure because its he right thing to do.  I cure because I hope things will work out better this time.

But you can't think of a single good way that the Krogan can manage their populations without the genophage. In such a case handwaving it all away and hoping for the best isn't optimism, it's literally blind faith. And you're following blind faith on a matter that logic (or pragmatism, pessimism, whatever you want to call it) suggests will doom everyone, even the Krogan in the long-term.

I can't think of one right now.  I might come up with something later.  I can hope for the best without being blindly faithful.

#238
LilyasAvalon

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Possibly. Depends whose running the joint, if it's Wreav, hell yes, if it's Wrex, I'll flip a coin.

#239
DeinonSlayer

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Steelcan wrote...

simonrana wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

simonrana wrote...
As I thought.

In which case you really should've just said something like "I always cure the genophage because doing so makes me feel like an awesome hero and the bonus paragon points are handy!"

Instead you've argued against logic points, even though in your outlook you have no interest in logic.

. Except that's not it at all.  Optimism == I cure because its he right thing to do.  I cure because I hope things will work out better this time.

But you can't think of a single good way that the Krogan can manage their populations without the genophage. In such a case handwaving it all away and hoping for the best isn't optimism, it's literally blind faith. And you're following blind faith on a matter that logic (or pragmatism, pessimism, whatever you want to call it) suggests will doom everyone, even the Krogan in the long-term.

I can't think of one right now.  I might come up with something later.  I can hope for the best without being blindly faithful.

If the Genophage lowered conception rates instead of causing stillbirths, one must wonder if this situation would have come up. There would be no need for the Krogan to cull their own young.

#240
Constant Motion

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simonrana wrote...

I can see your point Constant Motion. I don't personally agree with it but I can see this is ultimately a matter of interpretation.

To me the big take away from the ME2 conversations was that Mordin looked at all the facts and recognised his genophage work was the lesser of all alternative evils (remember how he talked about considering "thousands" of different scenarios?) and ME3 gave no convincing arguments to show that a genophage cure wouldn't still lead to disaster.

Even Eve the "saviour" has some pretty big problems. She states her dedication to and belief in the importance of "preserving the ancient ways". Take her comments of wisdom coming from pain and the ME2 male shaman's insight into what shaman's reperesent and it takes you in a troubling direction.

Also remember the confrontation on Rannoch? We see Wrex completely fail to talk down the krogan from killing Mordin even when they've been told he's here to cure the genophage. Eve steps in and prevents them but think of how she succeeds, she gives them the scenarios:

1 ) Fester in old wounds like the Krogan have always done (by killing the salarian,as they seem so intent on doing, even at the cost of a genophage cure)

2 ) Fight the most terrible of foes (we know how Krogan feel about having good enemies to fight) and win a new future for our children.

Would her talk have dissauded them if it didn't include the allure of facing down the mightiest of enemies they would ever have the honor of battling? Maybe, but I for one am not convinced. If the options were "kill the salarian" or "do [something not violent] that works towards a better krogan future" I think they'd opt to kill the salarian.

That's cool - I can see your point, too!

I think the scene you describe on Tuchanka epitomises it, for me, though. The krogans, I agree, would've killed the salarian, and they're the same bloodthirsty criminals that krogans are seen to be throughout the galaxy. They don't, however, kill the salarian, and the reason they don't kill the salarian is because some krogan are better.

The krogan that confront Mordin on Tuchanka are products of their time, their planet, and to some extent, in their defence, their situation. They're not a species I'd want to trust with the run of the galaxy. But the krogans that Mordin's been living with in the time between games don't fit that bloodthirsty stereotype. The krogans he's been working with aren't the hardened war-criminals responsible for the krogan rebellions - yes, Eve can handle herself in a fight, but they're just people, and they're victims of their species' reputation. He's a doctor, and the krogan have become his patients, who he's sworn to care for - the net result of which is, he's spent six months living with and tending to concrete proof that not all krogan are hardened warriors. Many are, but does that mean all krogan have to live with the consequences?

It's a very tough dilemma, to which there's no right answer, but I think he's learnt a lot between games. He's seen more of the krogan, seen the consequences of his decisions, and woken up each day to face the innocents he's persecuted just the same as the criminals he's pragmatically helped quell. Keep in mind, too, that he's a doctor, nearing the end of his life, and that salarians, as a species, are prone to slightly rash decisions what with their short lifespans. I think a doctor like Mordin Solus would prefer the last act of his life to be one of healing.

Because Mordin's philosophy, right from the moment we first met him, is that there are lots of ways to help people: sometimes you heal patients, sometimes you execute dangerous people. The genophage, as he's increasingly being shown, doesn't fit either template as snugly as he'd have liked to believe. This is one problem he can't solve, he can't have it both ways at once. The krogan aren't all villains and the salarians, as the Dalatrass and their biological warfare projects demonstrate, aren't all heroes. Mordin's put under pressure and asked to execute the patients he's worked so hard to save for crimes other krogans committed. Because that's the choice - he can either doom patients or heal dangerous people. Of course he flips out! That's a bastard of a choice for any doctor - but for one so personally invested, I think it's completely in character that he thinks with his heart for a few minutes.

That doesn't mean his conclusion is correct. There's no right answer to the dilemma, and the scene on Tuchanka quite deftly shows the player both sides of the story. There's the fierce, bloodthirsty krogan that the galaxy might be better rid of, and there's at least one strong, diplomatic krogan that might bring about a culture the galaxy could be richer for. And Mordin himself changes depending on the circumstances - if those diplomatic krogan are no longer present, Mordin can absolutely be persuaded that the krogan don't yet deserve their second chance. But, given what he learns across his two games, I fully understand why Mordin turns out the way he does. Events change him, and he reacts to life in a way that I think is very realistic - and that, to me, is a triumph of character.

But I understand and respect that you feel differently! I'm not trying to convince anyone, I just love Mordin, love the arc, and enjoy discussing it.

Modifié par Constant Motion, 04 mars 2013 - 04:05 .


#241
TheWill

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i suspected her of telling cerberus about the female krogan... wish i could shoot that salarian boshtet.. strange we cant in game... she seems like she could have been trouble...

#242
Steelcan

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DeinonSlayer wrote...
If the Genophage lowered conception rates instead of causing stillbirths, one must wonder if this situation would have come up. There would be no need for the Krogan to cull their own young.

. No middle option, yet again

#243
Tom Lehrer

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One thing that I wanted to see was an option is kinda give both sides what they wanted. Rather then cure or sabotage why not lower the mortality rate caused by the genophage to 1 out 500 living rather then out of a thousand?

#244
simonrana

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WarGriffin wrote...
I find it funny, Some of you are making the arguement that the Dalatrass is demonized and stereotyped... and then turnaround Stereotype the Krogan -They are genetically incapable of getting along!- You are right, The Dalatrass is clearly written to be the villian, but lets be honest at that point Renegade path = Sociopath.

Wrex isn't the only Krogan who sees, that thier previous lifestyle has gotten them nothing. He wouldn't be Overlord of Tuchanka and the Krogan if he literally had to beat every clan into submission.

Yes there are Krogan who are gonna want revenge and try to take over the Galaxy... What race isn't like that? **** give it Twenty years in an AU the Alliance will be the bad guys.

But there are plenty of Krogan that just want thier lives to go on. Hell Charr is a university kid!

Believing the information in the game codex is stereotyping? I see your point about Charr but he's literally the only krogan in 3 games that doesn't conform to the "stereotype" (Wrex also breaks it a little by not being unselfish and trying to help the krogan, but even he ticks the dangerously violent boxes).

Here's what the codex has for Krogan Culture:

"The harsh krogan homeworld conditioned the krogan psychology for toughness just as it did the body. Krogan have always had a tendency to be selfish, unsympathetic, and blunt. They respect strength and self-reliance and are neither surprised nor offended by treachery.
The weak and selfless do not live long. In their culture, "looking out for number one" is simply a matter of course. Krogan have powerful territorial instincts which serve them well in combat, but can create problems; when traveling on starships, for example, krogan find sharing quarters nearly impossible."

And we were reminded about the travelling issue by EDI in ME3 too.

Step away from the game fun for a minute (e.g. the fact that we don't have to try and survive in a room with Wrex) and try to actually imagine a race with the Krogan's genetic predisposition and culture. And then try to imagine how that culture would develop. It's not impossible for the Krogan to eventually develop into a peaceful society but it really seems like a stretch, practically everything points in opposite direction.

Modifié par simonrana, 04 mars 2013 - 04:21 .


#245
Bleachrude

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simonrana wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...
Yeah, the pro-krogan bias in the genophage plotline is really annoying. It's very clear who they want you to side with.

+1. Based on everything we know curing the genophage really seemed like the wrong thing to do, but since the game was screaming "CURE THE GENOPHAGE RIGHT THE WRONGS!" I just went with it. Hell even Mordin joined in, and he was the one that made it clear how disasterous a cure would be with pretty faultless logic in ME2.


That's because you have Wrex and saved Mordin and have Maelon's data.

If you didn't have Wrex, interacting with Wreav shows that the dalatress is quite correct....

#246
DeinonSlayer

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TheWill wrote...

i suspected her of telling cerberus about the female krogan... wish i could shoot that salarian boshtet.. strange we cant in game... she seems like she could have been trouble...

Nah, that was Lt. Ganto Imness who told them - he was the "control group" in Saren's indoctrination research who, like Rana Thanoptis, seemed healthy. Shepard released him from his cell on Virmire. That was a mistake.

That's my headcanon, anyway. :P

#247
shodiswe

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In a way, ships FTL drives, handguns shields, everythign pretty much.... Is reaper tech.

Also the Geth upgrade I belive is more like a drivers upgrade, like upgrading your graphics drivers which increases performacne you your platform by 40%... In other words the geth recives a sizable increase in processing power and inteligence. They also become less dependant on each other as less resources goes towards "unconcious" platform maintenance.
Also, VI Legion or its compatriots never refers to itseöf as I and the Geth prime afterwards refers to VI Legion as a Personality construct. When it's Legion then he calls himself "I" and the geth prime refers to Legion as Legion not personality construct.
So what the Reaper upgrade seems to be is a technological upgrade that improves performance, like upgrading to thanix cannons on a ship.
So in one part the geth are improved by the reaper "drivers" which saves their lives. If Legion is the one distributing the code then they get a piece of Legion and it's experiences and possibly what makes Legion a singular entity, which is a concept that's personaly develpoed by Legions experiences outside Geth space. Also the realization of how different it had become compared to the other Geth might have been a factor that made it realize it was a unique individual.

As for the Krogan, I think they deserve a chance, every species is reproducing and growing their populations, just look at Reallife humanity and "our" population increase over the past 100 years.
That figure would show an increase of about 400%..
Yes the Krogans have a history of violence, so does humanity.

The Geth realized every organic in the universe was trying to kill them off once they learned that they had gained sentience on their own, ofcourse they were slow to trust and that trust would have to come from a need.
Why would they risk exposing themselves to people that shows they wants to kill them like a zombiehorde in Racoon city.
The geth have no trust for Quarrians who tried to kill them at every turn, they are only slightly less afraid or distrustful of humans due to the limited exposure they have had of that species. But they probably put all Organics on the same side of the fence, they are all walking dead disgusting things that are trying to kill them. Or at least something similar to that, which they have problems communicating with.
I don't know how other organics liek Asari visiting Rannoch at the time reacted but most probably followed the recomendations of the Quarrian government and military.

Whatever threat Geth or Krogans pose, I coudln't care less, every species could turn bad. Who knows maybe humanity will be ruled by a future Hitler liek person who want's to cleanse the galaxy of lesser life.
Maybe he or she doesn't even edknowledge the other species as beign alive or sentiend seeing as his or her holybook tells them that only humans are special and created by the creator or god or whatever they might belive in.

#248
WarGriffin

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simonrana wrote...

WarGriffin wrote...
I find it funny, Some of you are making the arguement that the Dalatrass is demonized and stereotyped... and then turnaround Stereotype the Krogan -They are genetically incapable of getting along!- You are right, The Dalatrass is clearly written to be the villian, but lets be honest at that point Renegade path = Sociopath.

Wrex isn't the only Krogan who sees, that thier previous lifestyle has gotten them nothing. He wouldn't be Overlord of Tuchanka and the Krogan if he literally had to beat every clan into submission.

Yes there are Krogan who are gonna want revenge and try to take over the Galaxy... What race isn't like that? **** give it Twenty years in an AU the Alliance will be the bad guys.

But there are plenty of Krogan that just want thier lives to go on. Hell Charr is a university kid!

Believing the information in the game codex is stereotyping? I see your point about Charr but he's literally the only krogan in 3 games that doesn't conform to the "stereotype" (Wrex also breaks it a little by not being unselfish and trying to help the krogan, but even he ticks the dangerously violent boxes).

Here's what the codex has for Krogan Culture:

"The harsh krogan homeworld conditioned the krogan psychology for toughness just as it did the body. Krogan have always had a tendency to be selfish, unsympathetic, and blunt. They respect strength and self-reliance and are neither surprised nor offended by treachery.
The weak and selfless do not live long. In their culture, "looking out for number one" is simply a matter of course. Krogan have powerful territorial instincts which serve them well in combat, but can create problems; when traveling on starships, for example, krogan find sharing quarters nearly impossible."



Logic would detect then Wrex would not be overlord since everybody would be trying to kill him since he is one of the "few" Krogan trying to get along with the universe. Except Wrex even tells us in his backstory that most of the younger Krogan left cause they didn't want to put up with the Older generations war mongering.

Also too the bolded part BS
as Wrex pretty much admits he couldn't beleive his Father would betray him, Try to kill him on sacred ground and have his men hiding in the graves of the dead. Wrex left Tunchanka cause of this betrayal.

The Codex is meant to be nice fluff and introductory material, but If you actaully went thoguh and read what is said and then what is presented in the game. The Codex is not the hard facts nor the absolute end all be all answer to the discussion.

#249
simonrana

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Bleachrude wrote...

simonrana wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...
Yeah, the pro-krogan bias in the genophage plotline is really annoying. It's very clear who they want you to side with.

+1. Based on everything we know curing the genophage really seemed like the wrong thing to do, but since the game was screaming "CURE THE GENOPHAGE RIGHT THE WRONGS!" I just went with it. Hell even Mordin joined in, and he was the one that made it clear how disasterous a cure would be with pretty faultless logic in ME2.


That's because you have Wrex and saved Mordin and have Maelon's data.

If you didn't have Wrex, interacting with Wreav shows that the dalatress is quite correct....

Agreed. I did a playthrough once where I got the story to go in realistic ways, rather than having Shepard miraculously fix everything with super-paragon options. It was quite good, and reverting Mordin back to his realistic self was quite gratifying (I managed to talk him down since Wreav was in charge and Eve was dead).

Sadly though I must admit that I missed the cheesy gratifying feel-good fun of paragon-God Shepard, and proceeded to do a happy happy joy joy playthrough almost immediately after the realistic one!

#250
TK514

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I sided with Wrex for the good Paragon feels, but logically the Dalatrass is correct. The Krogan have done nothing to show that they learned how to control their violent natures.

Ironically, the Genophage cure destroys Wrex's powerbase. His power was based on control of the breeding females. With all females fully fertile again, the other clans no longer have any reason to listen to his reforms. In fact, his reforms no longer have any real value, as they were conceived as cultural changes to mitigate the effects of the genophage to begin with.

All the genophage does here is hit the reset button on Krogan cultural reform while robbing the main reformer of his only effective bargaining chip.