284 réponses à ce sujet

[FlyinElk212]

EARTH-SHATTERING COUNTER-QUESTION:

What if I think she DID give valid points?

[simonrana]

WarGriffin wrote...
Logic would detect then Wrex would not be overlord since everybody would be trying to kill him since he is one of the "few" Krogan trying to get along with the universe. Except Wrex even tells us in his backstory that most of the younger Krogan left cause they didn't want to put up with the Older generations war mongering.

Also too the bolded part BS
as Wrex pretty much admits he couldn't beleive his Father would betray him, Try to kill him on sacred ground and have his men hiding in the graves of the dead. Wrex left Tunchanka cause of this betrayal.

The Codex is meant to be nice fluff and introductory material, but If you actaully went thoguh and read what is said and then what is presented in the game. The Codex is not the hard facts nor the absolute end all be all answer to the discussion.

Yes I agree that the codex is not the be-all and end-all. But going by what we see ourselves in the game confirms it further - virtually every Krogan we ever meet in the game is a thug (with Char being the exception and Wrex being half an exception).

And you've completely misremembered that story - this is what he said:

"We aren't settlers, we're warriors. We want to fight. So we leave, hire ourselves out [as mercenaries]. And most of us never go back."

It's pretty much the opposite of what you claimed, and is yet another in-game example supporting a pessimistic view of krogan culture.

Modifié par simonrana, 04 mars 2013 - 04:36 .

[DeinonSlayer]

TK514 wrote...

I sided with Wrex for the good Paragon feels, but logically the Dalatrass is correct. The Krogan have done nothing to show that they learned how to control their violent natures.

Ironically, the Genophage cure destroys Wrex's powerbase. His power was based on control of the breeding females. With all females fully fertile again, the other clans no longer have any reason to listen to his reforms. In fact, his reforms no longer have any real value, as they were conceived as cultural changes to mitigate the effects of the genophage to begin with.

All the genophage does here is hit the reset button on Krogan cultural reform while robbing the main reformer of his only effective bargaining chip.

Another very good point which was never brought up in the story.

[Steelcan]

Wrex is still the most powerful clan leader regardless. Genophage cure puts everyone on equal breeding terms, he can still put gun them all.

[Bleachrude]

simonrana wrote...

Bleachrude wrote...

simonrana wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...
Yeah, the pro-krogan bias in the genophage plotline is really annoying. It's very clear who they want you to side with.

+1. Based on everything we know curing the genophage really seemed like the wrong thing to do, but since the game was screaming "CURE THE GENOPHAGE RIGHT THE WRONGS!" I just went with it. Hell even Mordin joined in, and he was the one that made it clear how disasterous a cure would be with pretty faultless logic in ME2.

That's because you have Wrex and saved Mordin and have Maelon's data.

If you didn't have Wrex, interacting with Wreav shows that the dalatress is quite correct....

Agreed. I did a playthrough once where I got the story to go in realistic ways, rather than having Shepard miraculously fix everything with super-paragon options. It was quite good, and reverting Mordin back to his realistic self was quite gratifying (I managed to talk him down since Wreav was in charge and Eve was dead).

Sadly though I must admit that I missed the cheesy gratifying feel-good fun of paragon-God Shepard, and proceeded to do a happy happy joy joy playthrough almost immediately after the realistic one!

It's similar to a playthrough with Jack alive with Grissom Academy...

With Jack, the students are background cheerleaders for jack and it doesn't feel as "intense"

Play it again without Jack and there is much more interaction with the students and it becomes/feels a lot more harrowing...Prangley for example is night and day between the two versions....

[Darth_Trethon]

shodiswe wrote...

In a way, ships FTL drives, handguns shields, everythign pretty much.... Is reaper tech.

Also the Geth upgrade I belive is more like a drivers upgrade, like upgrading your graphics drivers which increases performacne you your platform by 40%... In other words the geth recives a sizable increase in processing power and inteligence. They also become less dependant on each other as less resources goes towards "unconcious" platform maintenance.
Also, VI Legion or its compatriots never refers to itseöf as I and the Geth prime afterwards refers to VI Legion as a Personality construct. When it's Legion then he calls himself "I" and the geth prime refers to Legion as Legion not personality construct.
So what the Reaper upgrade seems to be is a technological upgrade that improves performance, like upgrading to thanix cannons on a ship.
So in one part the geth are improved by the reaper "drivers" which saves their lives. If Legion is the one distributing the code then they get a piece of Legion and it's experiences and possibly what makes Legion a singular entity, which is a concept that's personaly develpoed by Legions experiences outside Geth space. Also the realization of how different it had become compared to the other Geth might have been a factor that made it realize it was a unique individual.

As for the Krogan, I think they deserve a chance, every species is reproducing and growing their populations, just look at Reallife humanity and "our" population increase over the past 100 years.
That figure would show an increase of about 400%..
Yes the Krogans have a history of violence, so does humanity.

The Geth realized every organic in the universe was trying to kill them off once they learned that they had gained sentience on their own, ofcourse they were slow to trust and that trust would have to come from a need.
Why would they risk exposing themselves to people that shows they wants to kill them like a zombiehorde in Racoon city.
The geth have no trust for Quarrians who tried to kill them at every turn, they are only slightly less afraid or distrustful of humans due to the limited exposure they have had of that species. But they probably put all Organics on the same side of the fence, they are all walking dead disgusting things that are trying to kill them. Or at least something similar to that, which they have problems communicating with.
I don't know how other organics liek Asari visiting Rannoch at the time reacted but most probably followed the recomendations of the Quarrian government and military.

Whatever threat Geth or Krogans pose, I coudln't care less, every species could turn bad. Who knows maybe humanity will be ruled by a future Hitler liek person who want's to cleanse the galaxy of lesser life.
Maybe he or she doesn't even edknowledge the other species as beign alive or sentiend seeing as his or her holybook tells them that only humans are special and created by the creator or god or whatever they might belive in.

But humans HAVE grown in wisdom and diplomacy. Krogans have been around a lot longer and they nuked their own civilization into oblivion. Ultimately it's about cutting the line between acceptable and unacceptable threats. The only purpose that morals and preching goodness about a threat that would wipe you out in the blink of an eye without second thoughts or remorse is to erode the will and weaken the minds of those targeted for destruction. I am not that huge of a fan of IT but look at Saren and TIM....they were manipulated into believing that they were doing the right thing when inflicting great harm upon their own people. The entire game is not just a physical and political war but a mental war as well. An all out war to erode and destroy Shepard's mind by making him doubt everything he knows to be true. Oh if you win you are no better than your enemy or trying to create similarities between actions that do not compare....humans have grown and matured, unlike the Krogan and they are NOT implanted with reaper tech like the Geth.

To me it all ties into the reaper war and seeing through the fog of lies and deception created not just by the reapers but by BioWare as well who make EVERYTHING so emotionally manipulative towards the player in the wrong way....they twist what's right and wrong to pushe the player to make decisions that are ultimately VERY bad. I don't quite understand this....it's not unlike what the reapers do to organics in the games. I would accuse them of twisting an ARG in with the trilogy....but the whole point of an ARG would be the creators are never likely toadmit it exists.

The final discussion with the catalyst is in my opinion not unlike what Saren and TIM were ultimately distorted with.....the reapers want you to esentially use the crucible against organics which is what Synthesis is....in Javik's time a race of AIs took control over the bodies of their creators and it ensued in nothing but horrors, in control you die, everything else is a lie as far as I'm concerned, destroy is what it is and the only reason they do not conceal it is because they cannot....like TIM's and Saren's mind Shepard's mind is strong too and victory IS possible but the right choice is clouded in deception and made to look as the worst one. Finally Refuse does nothing....shepard gives up and the reapers proceed to do what they do leaving everything to the next cycle.

Modifié par Darth_Trethon, 04 mars 2013 - 04:55 .

[TheWill]

the ems score detaling wrex tells of him being seen as saviour of the krogan.. along with the support of sheps allies i dont see anyone challenging wrex anytime soon.. also children are a product of their enviroment and upbringing.. entire races could change their cultures.. i was wary of giving the batarians the pillars of their faith.. because slavery was part of their way.. maybe without it they will change their culture.. become a better race..

[inko1nsiderate]

This may have been said before, but if you are in a world without Wrex and Eve, then siding with her actually makes sense. Wreav is insane and violent and will start another war as soon as he can. You can even convince Mordin of this, and he probably is the least rational about the whole endeavor. I think her making bad points just makes it easy to dismiss her view, but with Wreav around it is Wreav's actions that begin to create doubt for the player and Mordin. This is actually a good thing as they are showing us why Wreav is dangerous instead of just telling us.

[WarGriffin]

simonrana wrote...

WarGriffin wrote...
Logic would detect then Wrex would not be overlord since everybody would be trying to kill him since he is one of the "few" Krogan trying to get along with the universe. Except Wrex even tells us in his backstory that most of the younger Krogan left cause they didn't want to put up with the Older generations war mongering.

Also too the bolded part BS
as Wrex pretty much admits he couldn't beleive his Father would betray him, Try to kill him on sacred ground and have his men hiding in the graves of the dead. Wrex left Tunchanka cause of this betrayal.

The Codex is meant to be nice fluff and introductory material, but If you actaully went thoguh and read what is said and then what is presented in the game. The Codex is not the hard facts nor the absolute end all be all answer to the discussion.

Yes I agree that the codex is not the be-all and end-all. But going by what we see ourselves in the game confirms it further - virtually every Krogan we ever meet in the game is a thug (with Char being the exception and Wrex being half an exception).

And you've completely misremembered that story - this is what he said:

"We aren't settlers, we're warriors. We want to fight. So we leave, hire ourselves out [as mercenaries]. And most of us never go back."

It's pretty much the opposite of what you claimed, and is yet another in-game example supporting a pessimistic view of krogan culture.

Except Wrex states that wasn't his reason for leaving

[Darth_Trethon]

WarGriffin wrote...

Except Wrex states that wasn't his reason for leaving

But you're not curing just Wrex....you're curing all Krogan, and they cannot survive unless they prey on others. He can't change the nature of the Krogan....I mean do you seriously think he'll teach them to farm or something? I hope not....that would be foolish at best. His people would kill him in minutes....they'd receive the idea as fast and as well as they wanted to receive Mordin...and they didn't even care he was there to cure them, they just wanted to kill him. Oh and Wrex wouldn't have been able to control them without Eve who only did so with promises of great wars and vengeance on those who placed the genophage on them. The Krogan are beyond any help.

[TheWill]

a galaxy full of krogan.. part of me wonders how the reapers would have done against them... makes you think.. was the genophage a reaper suggestion..as was their uplift to fight the rachni...? its hinted the rachni were controlled by leviathan... maybe reapers influenced krogan to become as they are.. then used them as tools..then used genphage to keep species alive for harvest without letting their numbers become a threat.. sounds vaguely reaperish right? if they have been influencing civilizations for 50.000 years can anyone truly be blamed for how they are now? and now that we are aware of this..the choices we all make now are the only real choices ever made without manipulation... what it gives you is hope.. the very thing the krogan have lost... thats what makes this decision so huge ...

[Zkyire]

Honestly, if she wasn't such a ****; I'd have sided with her. 'Cause, well, she's right.

[jumpingkaede]

Zkyire wrote...

Honestly, if she wasn't such a ****; I'd have sided with her. 'Cause, well, she's right.

I'd have sided with her if the alternative wasn't death by Reaper.

It's really a choice between: (A) Possible, even probable, krogan uprising in the future vs. ( Immediate Reaper death now.

[shodiswe]

In this clip that Krogan at 3:30 clearly shows how it feels about things.... Humans are dangerous and agressive!



Damn Humans!

[Shad Croly]

Her words and perception remind me a lot of a few key conversations from ME1 and ME2, specifically the elevator conversation where Wrex critisizes Kaiden for assuming that all Krogan are the same and Mordin's comment in his Loyalty mission where you can kinda make an accurate guess as to how a member of a race will act (except humans), but that there still do exist outliers. I always got the feeling that the Dalatras is completely missing (or does see it but can't grasp) the idea that Wrex IS one of those outliers.

If Wreav is in charge of the Krogan, her viewpoints would have merit, because Wreav is a bastard. However, if Wrex is the leader of the Krogan, I trust him enough that he'd be able to keep the Krogan in check, rather than let them repeat the mistakes of the past (with support from Eve, naturally).

[shodiswe]

Also a much younger and less populated galaxy with fewer concil worlds and other species put the Krogans down. If they do something like they did in the past they would be in serious trouble.

It doesn't really matter, the past is a known that can be studdied and analysed, the present can be debated but the future is what ever people make of it!

Modifié par shodiswe, 04 mars 2013 - 06:08 .

[humes spork]

...you mean "what if the Dalatrass spent fifteen minutes expositing **** you already knew if you'd been paying the least attention to the trilogy thus far at all"?

[Doctor_Jackstraw]

my renegade shepard sided with her cause he thought wreave sucked.

my other renegade shepard sided with her despite wrex being alive because he likes having his cake and eating it too

[Bad King]

She does give valid points. She's pretty much the only sane character in that entire arc. Why do you think that her comments aren't valid?

Paragon Shepard: You can't condemn an entire race to extinction based on what might happen.
Dalatrass: What will happen is that the krogan will reproduce out of control.

And that's exactly how the krogan rebellions happened. Remember- the council were on very good terms with the krogan before the rebellion- it was their high birth rate which forced them to annex planets. The genophage fixed this problem. For this reason I sabotage regardless of which person leads the krogan.

Modifié par Bad King, 04 mars 2013 - 06:46 .

[matt-bassist]

curing the genophage should be based on your logical thinking: if Wrex is alive, the Krogan wont be a problem. if Wreav is in charge, obviously you wont cure the genophage. the first thing wreav says is hes gonna kill all the turians and salarians, i mean come on. why would you agree to go along with that.... right? Right?

[FlyingSquirrel]

Paragon Shepard: You can't condemn an entire race to extinction based on what might happen.
Dalatrass: What will happen is that the krogan will reproduce out of control.

And that's exactly how the krogan rebellions happened. Remember- the council were on very good terms with the krogan before the rebellion- it was their high birth rate which forced them to annex planets. The genophage fixed this problem. For this reason I sabotage regardless of which person leads the krogan.

Wreav: "Just wait until you see how fast we can pop 'em out now."
Eve: "The *females* will decide that, Wreav."
Wreav: [grumbles]

I think it's a mistake to assume that just because the krogan *can* reproduce in massive numbers, they necessarily *will*. Assuming that the Council does give them the right to colonize some additional planets after the war, they have an obvious incentive not to have their population growth strain their resource limits. The genophage does seem to have injected a strain of despair and pessimism into krogan culture. Without that, they are more likely to be invested in making their new arrangements work, rather than picking another fight and risking getting themselves killed in pursuit of something that they can achieve without violence, i.e. room to expand and equal footing with other races.

The violent strain of krogan culture may be worrisome, but if Wrex was able to see that it was leading them down the road to disaster, others can recognize that too. He had apparently gathered followers on Tuchanka in the conflict with his father, when he (Wrex) was arguing that they had to focus on something other than fighting.

[knightnblu]

No

[Arppis]

If Wrex isn't around, Dalatrass HAS valid points. Because then Krogans will go on rampage with the idiot leading them.

But Wrex is around in my game, so why bother stabbing him to the back when he is clearly making progress with Krogan? If he isn't around, Dalatrass would have stronger case.

But really, it boils down to me wanting a big army... Krogan will give me that.

Modifié par Arppis, 04 mars 2013 - 09:27 .

[Bad King]

FlyingSquirrel wrote...

Wreav: "Just wait until you see how fast we can pop 'em out now."
Eve: "The *females* will decide that, Wreav."
Wreav: [grumbles]

I think it's a mistake to assume that just because the krogan *can* reproduce in massive numbers, they necessarily *will*. Assuming that the Council does give them the right to colonize some additional planets after the war, they have an obvious incentive not to have their population growth strain their resource limits. The genophage does seem to have injected a strain of despair and pessimism into krogan culture. Without that, they are more likely to be invested in making their new arrangements work, rather than picking another fight and risking getting themselves killed in pursuit of something that they can achieve without violence, i.e. room to expand and equal footing with other races.

The violent strain of krogan culture may be worrisome, but if Wrex was able to see that it was leading them down the road to disaster, others can recognize that too. He had apparently gathered followers on Tuchanka in the conflict with his father, when he (Wrex) was arguing that they had to focus on something other than fighting.

The Council gifted them numerous worlds following the rachni wars and even turned a blind eye to the occasions when the krogan illegally seized planets. But all of these planets weren't enough in the face of the rocketing reproductive rate of the krogan. I fail to see how Wrex and Eve can control the birth rate of an entire race of highly individualistic, instinctive and aggressive space lizards who live for centuries and are biologically adapted to produce as many offspring as possible. The genophage is the best option.


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