284 réponses à ce sujet

[darkiddd]

She gave valid points, the real problem is that she's an ****.

[djt0nez]

I don't think any of her points are valid. They needed the krogan to beat the rachni. Now they think they can beat the reapers without a replenishing number of krogan or full krogan support?  They are worrying about the future, well there won't be a future with any of these races when the reapers roll through.  Not sure if the salarians are as dumb as the quarians for starting a war with reaper attack incoming, but they sure come close. Even if quarians took their home world back they would have zero infrastructure, zero planetary defenses easy pickings for the reapers to take it right back.

Modifié par djt0nez, 07 mars 2013 - 04:22 .

[saracen16]

I disagreed with the Dalatrass exactly for the reason Shep mentions: you can't condemn an entire race to extinction based on what might happen. To do that would be xenophobic, to say the least.

[Urdnot Amenark]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

The-Biotic-God wrote...

Aside from the racist first impression she actually does have some valid reasoning behind her judgement.

Wrex realistically can't promise that the Krogan will become a diplomatic race. Violence is a big part of their traditions.

This. She had valid points, but they demonized her as a character. The narrative could have done without the STG guys gossiping about what a witch she is. Same goes for Gerrel - they put him in front of you as a literal punching bag and sweep his motivations (the fleet's needs, along with most of the crap the Geth did over the last three centuries) under the rug. Same goes for TIM. "For Yoo-Manity" is all we get from him now.

As long as Eve is alive, you're guaranteed a stabilizing force that will ensure neither Wrex or Wreav go the same route as the Krogan did during the Rebellions, since she controls the females in the clans. So, Wrex might not be able to, but Eve can. Violence may be a significant part of their traditions, but as we learned in Tuchanka, it certainly isn't the only part.

[Vilegrim]

No. The likely outcome (another Krogan war) is worse than not having the Krogan to fight the reapers.

Plus if Wrex is in charge, the almighty arse kicking that he could deliver if he called in his allies makes sure the Krogan Civil War would be short, one sided, and bloody.

[Matthias King]

I would try to reason with her more to try to sway her to my side if I had the option, diplomacy can do a lot, but there's no valid point that would have made me deceive and betray Wrex.

[PirateMouse]

The Dalatrass is not really a character in the game; she's just a poorly disguised strawman propped up by Bioware's writers to attempt to make an irrational position more sympathetic. The angry, dismissive attitude, the way she suggests the krogan are no longer "useful" ... she could have been wearing a black top hat and twirling a pencil-thin moustache, and it wouldn't have looked out of place.

She's a symptom of what the writers pull throughout that arc, using cheap emotional tricks to manipulate and pressure the player at every turn ... and small wonder. They faced an impossible task, to present an argument that outright curing the genophage would be a good idea in spite of everything we knew (or at least could know) by then about the krogans and their horrifyingly rapid default birthrate.

Logic and reason were against them, so they resorted to the one thing they had left: emotional appeal. And don't underestimate emotional appeal! Such a powerful thing it is, so insidious and seductive. Just reading these forums, you can quickly get a sense for how easily most people are roped into terrible decisions if you tug at their emotions in the right ways. It's an excellent illustration of why the kind of power to make such enormous decisions does not belong in the hands of most people ... not so much just because power corrupts but because emotional appeal easily tempts most people into using that power in terribly short-sighted ways.

My favorite part is when people say things like, "If Wrex is in charge, it'll be fine." "I trust Wrex." "Cure if Wrex is in charge, sabotage otherwise."

In reality, Wrex being in power (yes, even with Eve there too) is a red herring.

Think about it: ONE krogan is supposed to not only change the behavior of all krogan forever but also somehow change them so much that they're able to, as a total species, self-regulate their entire population ... forever? Even though no species, including our own, has ever been able to do this as a total species? It would be an utterly ridiculous notion even if the krogan were a peaceful and enlightened species! Animals simply don't manage their reproduction in this way -- not even the sapient ones like humans.

It's moot, of course. Wrex loses power about five minutes after the war with the Reapers is won.

Or weren't you paying attention? His power base was built around control of access to fertile females. That evaporated the moment you cured the genophage, and once they no longer have a big bad enemy to fight to keep their attention, the other krogan are going to realize this. Since Wrex's ideas were hardly popular, most of them will probably abandon him overnight. Even though some may choose to remain loyal, the real force behind his unification and reformation effort is gone -- it no longer has teeth. And his relatively peaceful krogan will most likely be quickly wiped out by another more aggressive "traditional" clan.

Basically, Wrex has always been doomed. He dies on Virmire if you can't talk him down (and this is actually the best possible outcome since it makes it possible to talk Mordin down later), he dies on the Citadel if you sabotage the genophage cure, and he most likely dies later amidst the shattered remnants of his no-longer-relevant clan if you cure the genophage. Viewed from that perspective, his death can be seen as an unfortunate but inevitable consequence of his blind obsession.

I sabotaged the cure ... not because the Dalatrass was convincing but because it's simply the right thing to do. I was there to protect the galaxy, not doom it.

Modifié par PirateMouse, 30 mars 2013 - 05:03 .

[Supergamingginger]

Even if the Delatrass had given valid points, I wouldn't have supported her. I believe that the Krogan deserve a second chance and I wouldn't betray Wrex's trust like that.
Also, I'll take an army of Krogan any day.

[robertthebard]

No.  She is only concerned about what may happen, while I'm looking at what is happening.  Of course, it's easy to pretend there is no Reaper threat when they aren't attacking your planet yet.  I wonder what kind of song she would have sung had they been knocking on their door at the time.

[Fixers0]

PirateMouse wrote...

The Dalatrass is not really a character in the game; she's just a poorly disguised strawman propped up by Bioware's writers to attempt to make an irrational position more sympathetic. The angry, dismissive attitude, the way she suggests the krogan are no longer "useful" ... she could have been wearing a black top hat and twirling a pencil-thin moustache, and it wouldn't have looked out of place.

She's a symptom of what the writers pull throughout that arc, using cheap emotional tricks to manipulate and pressure the player at every turn ... and small wonder. They faced an impossible task, to present an argument that outright curing the genophage would be a good idea in spite of everything we knew (or at least could know) by then about the krogans and their horrifyingly rapid default birthrate.

Logic and reason were against them, so they resorted to the one thing they had left: emotional appeal. And don't underestimate emotional appeal! Such a powerful thing it is, so insidious and seductive. Just reading these forums, you can quickly get a sense for how easily most people are roped into terrible decisions if you tug at their emotions in the right ways. It's an excellent illustration of why the kind of power to make such enormous decisions does not belong in the hands of most people ... not so much just because power corrupts but because emotional appeal easily tempts most people into using that power in terribly short-sighted ways.

My favorite part is when people say things like, "If Wrex is in charge, it'll be fine." "I trust Wrex." "Cure if Wrex is in charge, sabotage otherwise."

In reality, Wrex being in power (yes, even with Eve there too) is a red herring.

Think about it: ONE krogan is supposed to not only change the behavior of all krogan forever but also somehow change them so much that they're able to, as a total species, self-regulate their entire population ... forever? Even though no species, including our own, has ever been able to do this as a total species? It would be an utterly ridiculous notion even if the krogan were a peaceful and enlightened species! Animals simply don't manage their reproduction in this way -- not even the sapient ones like humans.

It's moot, of course. Wrex loses power about five minutes after the war with the Reapers is won.

Or weren't you paying attention? His power base was built around control of access to fertile females. That evaporated the moment you cured the genophage, and once they no longer have a big bad enemy to fight to keep their attention, the other krogan are going to realize this. Since Wrex's ideas were hardly popular, most of them will probably abandon him overnight. Even though some may choose to remain loyal, the real force behind his unification and reformation effort is gone -- it no longer has teeth. And his relatively peaceful krogan will most likely be quickly wiped out by another more aggressive "traditional" clan.

Basically, Wrex has always been doomed. He dies on Virmire if you can't talk him down (and this is actually the best possible outcome since it makes it possible to talk Mordin down later), he dies on the Citadel if you sabotage the genophage cure, and he most likely dies later amidst the shattered remnants of his no-longer-relevant clan if you cure the genophage. Viewed from that perspective, his death can be seen as an unfortunate but inevitable consequence of his blind obsession.

I sabotaged the cure ... not because the Dalatrass was convincing but because it's simply the right thing to do. I was there to protect the galaxy, not doom it.

You sir, Deserve a Medal.