284 réponses à ce sujet

[Darth_Trethon]

Jassu1979 wrote...

Darth_Trethon wrote...

***a billion facepalms***

I hate how people are completely unaware of anything relating to the Krogan Rebellions and immediately condone a cure because babies and "cuz Wrex is badass". Completely ignorant of the suffering the Krogans themselves have caused to warrant the genophage......

The Krogans who participated in the rebellion have been dead for a long time.
Judging an entire species on account of what their ancestors did?
Yeah, that's a textbook example of racism.

I agree that a species that produces a thousand individuals per clutch and has a life expectancy of a millennium can pose a threat to itself and others if they reproduce indiscriminately - but that still does not justify deliberately driving them to extinction.

Look at their extremely violent behavior as they take pride in being uneducated. They would go right back to picking up from where they left off when the genophage was first placed on them. They need to understand and accept that what they did was wrong and show genuine understanding that the council races were left no choice but to use the genophage on top of abandoning all thoughts of revenge long before the genophage is cured.

I see none of it...not even from Wrex or Eve who despite her voice is just as violent and brutish. Untill I have reason to absolutely believe they changed as a species and that the majority are peaceful the genophage stays.

Modifié par Darth_Trethon, 04 mars 2013 - 01:14 .

[iOnlySignIn]

No.

The Salarians are a much more dangerous threat to Humanity than the Krogans.

Technology and intelligence will always win over brute force.

Modifié par iOnlySignIn, 04 mars 2013 - 01:16 .

[Helios969]

Darth_Trethon wrote...

Jewlie Ghoulie wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

I'd still cure the genophage if Wrex and Eve are alive. If Wreav is in charge I'd sabotage. Simple

I feel this way too.

Remember Nyreen? More specifically the enormous ammout of time it took the Talons to completely discard and forget about all her values and morals after her passing before they went back to "hoonoring" the ways of the leader they had before Nyreen? About half of that ammout of time is what it would take the Krogan to forget about Wrex and Eve as they rally to the battle cries of the new leader after their passing....which I estimate to be about thirty seconds later. That and the fact that Wrex is completely oblivious to all the horrors the Krogan did to the council races to warrant the genophage as he plays the victim card.....they killed billions of innocents with asteroids. never at any point does he seem to understand the Krogan ever did any wrong which only shows that he too like the rest of his species have learned nothing from it.

All apart from the facts that they are as violent and uneducated as ever and billions of females each suddenly having a thousand babies per year would spell trouble for EVERY single other species as they would face only certain extinction regardless of Wrex or Eve.

Perhaps the species that would be so quick to betray an ally or attempt to "sterilize" a species is not particularly enlightened.  Putting on a plastic smile and saying all the right things doesn't mean someone isn't ruthless or inherently violent.

[Darth_Trethon]

Helios969 wrote...

Perhaps the species that would be so quick to betray an ally or attempt to "sterilize" a species is not particularly enlightened.  Putting on a plastic smile and saying all the right things doesn't mean someone isn't ruthless or inherently violent.

Hence why time would be needed until all parties involved would be confident of the krogans' sincerity.

And the council races were all but quick to inflict the genophage....the Krogan were destroying their colonies with asteroids and murdering billions as they reproduced insanely fast. The council races were driven into an absolute desperate situation where they faced certain extinction. The genophage was actually the most humane answer....they could have detonated the bomb on tuchanka too and hunted them to the last given the kind of threat they would pose if ever cured....the council races did not do this and allowed them time to learn and wisen up as a species...they did not.

[Ieldra]

@Darth_Trethon:
Thanks for another voice of reason on this subject. The genophage cure dilemma makes for a good story and the participants are too well-written to ignore that - that's why I don't sabotage the cure with every Shepard I have but only my main ones - but the writers didn't think this through and went all for empathy and emotional manipulation to send their messages with no regard for the pressure of facts, and that I resent.

As I see it, a complete cure should've resulted in war and the sabotage in slow extinction. A middle option like the one suggested by simonrana above, that should've resulted in the krogan cultural renaissance.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 04 mars 2013 - 01:31 .

[Steelcan]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

No.

The Salarians are a much more dangerous threat to Humanity than the Krogans.

Technology and intelligence will always win over brute force.

. How'd that intelligence work out for the slalarians during the rebellions or against the rachni?  I don't know why you love the salarians so much, but they are not the major threat that krogan are.

Furthermore, intelligence and technology do not always win out.  See WW2, USSR vs Germany.

Modifié par Steelcan, 04 mars 2013 - 01:54 .

[Constant Motion]

simonrana wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

avenging_teabag wrote...
BECAUSE BABIES
And poor writing. Poor writing everywhere - people are touting Tuchanka as the best part of ME3 - and it is - but it, in fact, involves, and hinges on, a complete character assassination of Mordin, one of the best, i dare say NPCs in all the Mass Effect series. Mordin, without warning or any particular reason, does a complete about face on everything he stood for in the 2nd game. In ME2 he made it pretty clear that he was aware of ethical implications of the genophage solution, struggled with them, but was willing to accept them for the good of the many.

Now, in ME3, suddenly, BABIES

Poor writing.

Wrong.
1. We don't knowhowlong the war will last and with the krogan rapid growth from birth, they can quickly replenish our groud troops.

2. Mordin was alway made as a character who became upset when he sees the worst of his work. EVE and her sister were just that.

3. Wink was alway like that.

There is no poor writing here.

Actually your point 2 is wrong, or at least irrelevant. ME2 showed Mordin getting upset when faced with the results of his actions and still standing by the necessity of those actions.

Pretty much exactly what the avenging teabag said.

And ME3 showed Mordin getting upset when faced with the results of his actions and starting to deeply regret them.

Characters change. That's what a story is. Fine if you feel his motives have been brushed over. But he's been working directly with innocents, who his work has condemned to ill health and possibly death. He's been working in a facility that's been studying a cure for the genophage, with scientists who have presumably been openly discussing the pros and cons of it. And even then, he still maintains a poker face right until the very end. And even that's only if you challenge him.

This isn't a contradiction, it's a continuation. A character evolving, and growing, and learning as he meets new people and experiences new things. That's not terrible writing, that's brilliant writing. Terrible writing is when characters never change, ever. But not only do Mordin's priorities shift, but they shift in a very Mordin way.

[spirosz]

No.

[Saiyan1126]

No, but then Wrex said something in the truck that made me recoil and not spill the beans. When Wrex called me his brother and a hero to the Krogan, there was just too much feels... I couldn't sabotage the cure.

[Ykulnu]

Curing the genophage for Krogan support is akin to the US siding with the Soviets in WW2. There is simply no other option if survival is truly the goal of the war. Not doing so out of fear when you have REAPERS EVERYWHERE IN THE GALAXY, or at least siding with the Delatrass publicly, is about 20 different shades diplomatically stupid. If you have to lie and sabotage the cure later on, fine, but you don't do away with potential resources when staring down the barrel of the enemy's gun.

[Darth_Trethon]

Ieldra2 wrote...

@Darth_Trethon:
Thanks for another voice of reason on this subject. The genophage cure dilemma makes for a good story and the participants are too well-written to ignore that - that's why I don't sabotage the cure with every Shepard I have but only my main ones - but the writers didn't think this through and went all for empathy and emotional manipulation to send their messages with no regard for the pressure of facts, and that I resent.

As I see it, a complete cure should've resulted in war and the sabotage in slow extinction. A middle option like the one suggested by simonrana above, that should've resulted in the krogan cultural renaissance.

I try but logic seems irrelevant to most....and BioWare does try so very hard to vilify anyone who is against the cure....I mean who is really against the cure? Saren, the big villain of ME1, the Illusive Man, arguably the second worst villain of the trilogy after the reapers and the Dalatrass who has a harsh menacing voice, is completely unatractive and has a nasty attitude. The emotional message is there...."to support the genophage is to be evil". On the other side the only way to learn the truth about the genophage is to read and think and not only reason but to reason against emotions and "friends"....Wrex is the victimized bro trying to help his people and is made to appear quite wise on the surface unless you read and start to wonder why he ever only tells half the story and then you have Eve....the vulnerable and kind grandmothher figure who is alays at the mercy of others and plays the emotional srtings very well to the point that her shotgun bit only make her appear strong rather than for the player to actually ever question her noble and wise nature.

To me it's sickening, more when I see how much people are ignorant of as they defend the cure rather than when I play the game.

Modifié par Darth_Trethon, 04 mars 2013 - 02:18 .

[Steelcan]

Darth_Trethon wrote...

I try but logic seems irrelevant to most....and BioWare does try so very hard to vilify anyone who is against the cure....I mean who is really against the cure? Saren, the big villain of ME1, the Illusive Man, arguably the second worst villain of the trilogy after the reapers and the Dalatrass who has a harsh menacing voice, is completely unatractive and has a nasty attitude. The emotional message is there...."to support the genophage is to be evil". 

. Well you can hardly argue the genophage is good.  A necessary evil, but not "good"

[simonrana]

Steelcan wrote...
Saying that there is no way for the krogan to control their population is wrong. There is no way that has yet worked. Even the genophage isn't a permanent measure.

Care to give us even a vague of how the cured krogan are supposed to control their population then? One that accounts for their extremely long lifespans and hyper-fertility...

Constant Motion wrote...

simonrana wrote...
Actually your point 2 is wrong, or at least irrelevant. ME2 showed Mordin getting upset when faced with the results of his actions and still standing by the necessity of those actions.

Pretty much exactly what the avenging teabag said.

And ME3 showed Mordin getting upset when faced with the results of his actions and starting to deeply regret them.

Characters change. That's what a story is. Fine if you feel his motives have been brushed over. But he's been working directly with innocents, who his work has condemned to ill health and possibly death. He's been working in a facility that's been studying a cure for the genophage, with scientists who have presumably been openly discussing the pros and cons of it. And even then, he still maintains a poker face right until the very end. And even that's only if you challenge him.

This isn't a contradiction, it's a continuation. A character evolving, and growing, and learning as he meets new people and experiences new things. That's not terrible writing, that's brilliant writing. Terrible writing is when characters never change, ever. But not only do Mordin's priorities shift, but they shift in a very Mordin way.

I can see your point Constant Motion. I don't personally agree with it but I can see this is ultimately a matter of interpretation.

To me the big take away from the ME2 conversations was that Mordin looked at all the facts and recognised his genophage work was the lesser of all alternative evils (remember how he talked about considering "thousands" of different scenarios?) and ME3 gave no convincing arguments to show that a genophage cure wouldn't still lead to disaster.

Even Eve the "saviour" has some pretty big problems. She states her dedication to and belief in the importance of "preserving the ancient ways". Take her comments of wisdom coming from pain and the ME2 male shaman's insight into what shaman's reperesent and it takes you in a troubling direction.

Also remember the confrontation on Rannoch? We see Wrex completely fail to talk down the krogan from killing Mordin even when they've been told he's here to cure the genophage. Eve steps in and prevents them but think of how she succeeds, she gives them the scenarios:

1 ) Fester in old wounds like the Krogan have always done (by killing the salarian,as they seem so intent on doing, even at the cost of a genophage cure)

2 ) Fight the most terrible of foes (we know how Krogan feel about having good enemies to fight) and win a new future for our children.

Would her talk have dissauded them if it didn't include the allure of facing down the mightiest of enemies they would ever have the honor of battling? Maybe, but I for one am not convinced. If the options were "kill the salarian" or "do [something not violent] that works towards a better krogan future" I think they'd opt to kill the salarian.

Modifié par simonrana, 04 mars 2013 - 02:47 .

[Helios969]

Humans are the most inherently warlike and self destructive species we know of...so, if an alien species suddenly discovers us and predicts that we will one day threaten galactic peace and stability, it'll be okay for them to sterilize 90% of the woman on the planet so we can never rival them...right?

[Steelcan]

simonrana wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Saying that there is no way for the krogan to control their population is wrong. There is no way that has yet worked. Even the genophage isn't a permanent measure.

Care to give us even a vague of how the cured krogan are supposed to control their population then? One that accounts for their extremely long lifespans and hyper-fertility...

. First and foremost strict laws on breeding.  Maybe a female can give birth once in her life.  This would reign in growth a little bit.  Other factors would also be in play, how do Krogan fertilize?  Internal or external?

[Steelcan]

Helios969 wrote...

Humans are the most inherently warlike and self destructive species we know of...so, if an alien species suddenly discovers us and predicts that we will one day threaten galactic peace and stability, it'll be okay for them to sterilize 90% of the woman on the planet so we can never rival them...right?

. Humans don't have 1000 kids at once.

[Ice Cold J]

 If she gave valid points and Wrev was calling the shots? Yes.
Wrex? No.

I trust the old man.

[Darth_Trethon]

Steelcan wrote...

Darth_Trethon wrote...

I try but logic seems irrelevant to most....and BioWare does try so very hard to vilify anyone who is against the cure....I mean who is really against the cure? Saren, the big villain of ME1, the Illusive Man, arguably the second worst villain of the trilogy after the reapers and the Dalatrass who has a harsh menacing voice, is completely unatractive and has a nasty attitude. The emotional message is there...."to support the genophage is to be evil". 

. Well you can hardly argue the genophage is good.  A necessary evil, but not "good"

About as necessary as a vaccine against a virus that would wipe out all life. BioWare played A LOT of emotional strings to make sabotage appear as absolutely evil as they could as all the ugly and nasty realities of what the Krogan did and how they fight wars are mostly swept under the rug and only mentioned in relatively obscure codex entries. Then they force you to shoot a friend in the back and kill a bro who puts up quite a dramatic show of how you "betrayed" him. It is deliberately made to be as emotionally exhausting for the player as possible....this is realistic as even in real life to do what is vitally necesssary is insanely difficult if it involves the lives of others no matter how bad or damaging they may be. But ultimately if you look through all that and see things for what they are rather than what they want you to see them as yes I would argue that sabotage of the cure is about as "evil" or "bad" as wiping out a virus.

[DeinonSlayer]

Steelcan wrote...

simonrana wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Saying that there is no way for the krogan to control their population is wrong. There is no way that has yet worked. Even the genophage isn't a permanent measure.

Care to give us even a vague of how the cured krogan are supposed to control their population then? One that accounts for their extremely long lifespans and hyper-fertility...

. First and foremost strict laws on breeding.  Maybe a female can give birth once in her life.  This would reign in growth a little bit.  Other factors would also be in play, how do Krogan fertilize?  Internal or external?

If you stand back and listen to what Patriarch says, he suggests infanticide was widely practiced before the Genophage - specifically, that hatchlings killed each other. After listening to Okeer, I could easily see the Krogan practicing eugenic infanticide - cull the weakest of their young in favor of those capable of surviving an environment like Tuchanka; those who make the best warriors for inter-clan warfare.

[Steelcan]

Darth_Trethon wrote...
About as necessary as a vaccine against a virus that would wipe out all life. BioWare played A LOT of emotional strings to make sabotage appear as absolutely evil as they could as all the ugly and nasty realities of what the Krogan did and how they fight wars are mostly swept under the rug and only mentioned in relatively obscure codex entries. Then they force you to shoot a friend in the back and kill a bro who puts up quite a dramatic show of how you "betrayed" him. It is deliberately made to be as emotionally exhausting for the player as possible....this is realistic as even in real life to do what is vitally necesssary is insanely difficult if it involves the lives of others no matter how bad or damaging they may be. But ultimately if you look through all that and see things for what they are rather than what they want you to see them as yes I would argue that sabotage of the cure is about as "evil" or "bad" as wiping out a virus.

. I agree that the genophage was the right call at the time.  But things have changed.  I'm willing to give the krogan a chance.  If they squander it, I will personally oversee a new genophage project.

[Steelcan]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

simonrana wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Saying that there is no way for the krogan to control their population is wrong. There is no way that has yet worked. Even the genophage isn't a permanent measure.

Care to give us even a vague of how the cured krogan are supposed to control their population then? One that accounts for their extremely long lifespans and hyper-fertility...

. First and foremost strict laws on breeding.  Maybe a female can give birth once in her life.  This would reign in growth a little bit.  Other factors would also be in play, how do Krogan fertilize?  Internal or external?

If you stand back and listen to what Patriarch says, he suggests infanticide was widely practiced before the Genophage - specifically, that hatchlings killed each other. After listening to Okeer, I could easily see the Krogan practicing eugenic infanticide - cull the weakest of their young in favor of those capable of surviving an environment like Tuchanka; those who make the best warriors for inter-clan warfare.

. Brutal, but it would definitely work.  Also Tuchanka would do a fair amount of culling itself.  It is not a hospitable environment.

[Helios969]

Steelcan wrote...

Helios969 wrote...

Humans are the most inherently warlike and self destructive species we know of...so, if an alien species suddenly discovers us and predicts that we will one day threaten galactic peace and stability, it'll be okay for them to sterilize 90% of the woman on the planet so we can never rival them...right?

. Humans don't have 1000 kids at once.

Doesn't matter, the point still stands.  If it's okay in one instance, then it's okay in all instances.  Of course, if the Salarians hadn't interfered in the first place, there would have been no Krogan rebellions.  Perhaps, they deserve their fate.  Besides if the Krogan get uppity again, I'm sure the Salarians will have another similar course of action to keep them in their place.  Can't have the brutes threatening the power structure, can we now?

[Darth_Trethon]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

simonrana wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Saying that there is no way for the krogan to control their population is wrong. There is no way that has yet worked. Even the genophage isn't a permanent measure.

Care to give us even a vague of how the cured krogan are supposed to control their population then? One that accounts for their extremely long lifespans and hyper-fertility...

. First and foremost strict laws on breeding.  Maybe a female can give birth once in her life.  This would reign in growth a little bit.  Other factors would also be in play, how do Krogan fertilize?  Internal or external?

If you stand back and listen to what Patriarch says, he suggests infanticide was widely practiced before the Genophage - specifically, that hatchlings killed each other. After listening to Okeer, I could easily see the Krogan practicing eugenic infanticide - cull the weakest of their young in favor of those capable of surviving an environment like Tuchanka; those who make the best warriors for inter-clan warfare.

And a race of people that know only violence, murder and destruction since birth are then supposed to be "peaceful" to everyone else.....did you actually give any thought to this and how stupid it sounds?

[DeinonSlayer]

Darth_Trethon wrote...

About as necessary as a vaccine against a virus that would wipe out all life. BioWare played A LOT of emotional strings to make sabotage appear as absolutely evil as they could as all the ugly and nasty realities of what the Krogan did and how they fight wars are mostly swept under the rug and only mentioned in relatively obscure codex entries. Then they force you to shoot a friend in the back and kill a bro who puts up quite a dramatic show of how you "betrayed" him. It is deliberately made to be as emotionally exhausting for the player as possible....this is realistic as even in real life to do what is vitally necesssary is insanely difficult if it involves the lives of others no matter how bad or damaging they may be. But ultimately if you look through all that and see things for what they are rather than what they want you to see them as yes I would argue that sabotage of the cure is about as "evil" or "bad" as wiping out a virus.

Same damn thing with the Geth Consensus mission.

Genocide? Isolationism? Letting the Heretics attack? No, you're supposed to like the Geth now - we won't mention any of that.

At least we can talk to Victus to get some of the history on the other side of the Krogan. All we can get out of Raan is fleet composition. Anyone who hasn't read the books or played previous titles will be left completely in the dark.

[BD Manchild]

No. Not to say that her points are invalid, but they feel irrelevent when Wrex is in charge. The circumstances since the time of the genophage's original release have changed considerably. After listening to Wrex in Mass Effect 2, it's clear he's got the right idea; the Krogan need to change their attitudes, start from scratch, if they're to have any hope of survival. Him putting aside his personal feelings to help you on Virmire also suggest that he's got a strong grasp of the big picture, which is exactly the kind of leader the Krogans need. Wrex doesn't strike me as the sort who'd get the genophage cure only to repeat the mistakes that led to the Krogan getting hit with the genophage in the first place, certainly not if Bakara's alive to help keep him straight. He says himself that, if traditionalists like Uvenk and Wreav got their way, the Krogan would certainly end up getting wiped out. Also, I would think by this point he's got too much respect for Shepard to do anything that might erode her trust in him.

To me, releasing the genophage cure is more of a symbolic act. It's a chance to wipe the slate clean, give the Krogan a chance to learn from the mistakes of the past and give them hope, going some way to rid them of the nihilistic attitudes that the genophage encouraged in them and kept them in barbarism.

Now I've never done a playthrough with Wreav, but given what I've been hearing about him on here then sabotaging the cure does seem to be the sensible thing to do, as he's exactly one of those traditionalists that Wrex is dead-set against and clearly can't be trusted. With Wrex and Bakara running the show, however, I'm prepared to take a leap of faith. Will their leadership truly lead the Krogan into a new Golden Age, one where the mistakes of the past are not repeated? To quote Admiral Koris, "I don't know, but we all deserve a chance to find out".

Modifié par BD Manchild, 04 mars 2013 - 02:50 .