284 réponses à ce sujet

[Steelcan]

Darth_Trethon wrote...

And a race of people that know only violence, murder and destruction since birth are then supposed to be "peaceful" to everyone else.....did you actually give any thought to this and how stupid it sounds?

. Only if they are stuck in the same clan warfare structure that has dominated them for millennia.  

[Steelcan]

Helios969 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Helios969 wrote...

Humans are the most inherently warlike and self destructive species we know of...so, if an alien species suddenly discovers us and predicts that we will one day threaten galactic peace and stability, it'll be okay for them to sterilize 90% of the woman on the planet so we can never rival them...right?

. Humans don't have 1000 kids at once.

Doesn't matter, the point still stands.  If it's okay in one instance, then it's okay in all instances.  Of course, if the Salarians hadn't interfered in the first place, there would have been no Krogan rebellions.  Perhaps, they deserve their fate.  Besides if the Krogan get uppity again, I'm sure the Salarians will have another similar course of action to keep them in their place.  Can't have the brutes threatening the power structure, can we now?

. And we are done here.

[Ieldra]

Steelcan wrote...

Darth_Trethon wrote...

I try but logic seems irrelevant to most....and BioWare does try so very hard to vilify anyone who is against the cure....I mean who is really against the cure? Saren, the big villain of ME1, the Illusive Man, arguably the second worst villain of the trilogy after the reapers and the Dalatrass who has a harsh menacing voice, is completely unatractive and has a nasty attitude. The emotional message is there...."to support the genophage is to be evil". 

. Well you can hardly argue the genophage is good.  A necessary evil, but not "good"

Actually, I do argue that a measure that sets population growth to a level just up from sustainable is fundamentally desirable, and thus good. Also, I don't see the genophage as a disease but as an adapation of the krogan natural fertility to the circumstances of a civilization advanced enough that the number of surviving children would otherwise result in a disastrous population explosion. That's why I don't like to speak of a cure but a reversal.  

The problem is the emotional effect of the stillborn children. I see this as contrived - I can't believe the salarians couldn't come up with something more elegant - and as a means to indoctrinate the players with the message that "the natural is good" (I've called this the sacred nature intuition), disregarding that what's considered "natural" is completely arbitrary. It is a reactionary message.

And yes, I absolutely would apply that rationale to humans now and here. Most global problems are rooted in excessive population growth at some level. There can be no right to have as many children as you want.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 04 mars 2013 - 02:51 .

[Darth_Trethon]

Steelcan wrote...

Darth_Trethon wrote...
About as necessary as a vaccine against a virus that would wipe out all life. BioWare played A LOT of emotional strings to make sabotage appear as absolutely evil as they could as all the ugly and nasty realities of what the Krogan did and how they fight wars are mostly swept under the rug and only mentioned in relatively obscure codex entries. Then they force you to shoot a friend in the back and kill a bro who puts up quite a dramatic show of how you "betrayed" him. It is deliberately made to be as emotionally exhausting for the player as possible....this is realistic as even in real life to do what is vitally necesssary is insanely difficult if it involves the lives of others no matter how bad or damaging they may be. But ultimately if you look through all that and see things for what they are rather than what they want you to see them as yes I would argue that sabotage of the cure is about as "evil" or "bad" as wiping out a virus.

. I agree that the genophage was the right call at the time.  But things have changed.  I'm willing to give the krogan a chance.  If they squander it, I will personally oversee a new genophage project.

I've yet to see any signs the Krogan are any different from the ones that did all those horrors in the Krogan Rebellions....even Wrex seems to be unwilling to understand anything other than how the Krogans were "wronged". I'm not ureasonable but I cannot see any way a cure won't end in disaster. Even if Wrex does keep the peace and teaches cooperation I simply do not see any of that sticking after his death and Nyreen's story teaches a VERY valuable lesson in how quickly the ways of a good leader can be forgotten and discarded.

[Darth_Trethon]

Steelcan wrote...

Darth_Trethon wrote...

And a race of people that know only violence, murder and destruction since birth are then supposed to be "peaceful" to everyone else.....did you actually give any thought to this and how stupid it sounds?

. Only if they are stuck in the same clan warfare structure that has dominated them for millennia.  

And if murder is all they know since they are toddlers that is the ONLY structure they will ever be capable of and war and distruction is something they will never be able to put aside.

[simonrana]

BD Manchild wrote...
Now I've never done a playthrough with Wreav, but given what I've been hearing about him on here then sabotaging the cure does seem to be the sensible thing to do, as he's exactly one of those traditionalists that Wrex is dead-set against and clearly can't be trusted. With Wrex and Bakara running the show, however, I'm prepared to take a leap of faith. Will their leadership truly lead the Krogan into a new Golden Age, one where the mistakes of the past are not repeated? To quote Admiral Koris, "I don't know, but we all deserve a chance to find out".

For what it's worth, if  you're the multiple playthrough sort then it's definitely worth trying out a Wrex-less playthrough at least once. It's is really different and really well done. That's if you can make it through one playthrough without the awesomeness that is Wrex!

[Steelcan]

Ieldra2 wrote...
Actually, I do argue that a measure that sets population growth to a level just up from sustainable is fundamentally desirable, and thus good. Also, I don't see the genophage as a disease but as an adapation of the krogan natural fertility to the circumstances of a civilization advanced enough that the number of surviving children would otherwise result in a disastrous population explosion. That's why I don't like to speak of a cure but a reversal.  

The problem is the emotional effect of the stillborn children. I see this as contrived - I can't believe the salarians couldn't come up with something more elegant - and as a means to indoctrinate the players with the message that "the natural is good" (I've called this the sacred nature intuition), disregarding that what's considered "natural" is completely arbitrary. It is a reactionary message.

And yes, I absolutely would apply that rationale to humans now and here. Most global problems are rooted in excessive population growth at some level. There can be no right to have as many children as you want.

. Mordin flat out says on ME2 "prevents fetal development of nervous system" sorry, I cannot in any way find that a "good" outcome.  It was necessary, but I don't have to like it.

[Steelcan]

Darth_Trethon wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Darth_Trethon wrote...

And a race of people that know only violence, murder and destruction since birth are then supposed to be "peaceful" to everyone else.....did you actually give any thought to this and how stupid it sounds?

. Only if they are stuck in the same clan warfare structure that has dominated them for millennia.  

And if murder is all they know since they are toddlers that is the ONLY structure they will ever be capable of and war and distruction is something they will never be able to put aside.

. That assumes human psychology.  Krogan are not human

[Artifex_Imperius]

realistically id support the dalatras coz Yikes krogan race is scary and impossibly exaggerated in the me universe with some krogan not just living a 1000 years but well over 2000+ years. and a single fertile female can give birth to a 1000 krogan a year as a minimum if she had a bad day or year damn. imagine a galaxy fully infested with krogan you'd need more than the entire REAPER armada.

[DeinonSlayer]

Darth_Trethon wrote...

And a race of people that know only violence, murder and destruction since birth are then supposed to be "peaceful" to everyone else.....did you actually give any thought to this and how stupid it sounds?

The Power of Friendship compels thee! 

+2 Paragon

[Ieldra]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Darth_Trethon wrote...

And a race of people that know only violence, murder and destruction since birth are then supposed to be "peaceful" to everyone else.....did you actually give any thought to this and how stupid it sounds?

The Power of Friendship compels thee! 

+2 Paragon

Unfortunately, this option is only available with 32767+ Paragon points

[Darth_Trethon]

DeinonSlayer wrote...
Same damn thing with the Geth Consensus mission.

Genocide? Isolationism? Letting the Heretics attack? No, you're supposed to like the Geth now - we won't mention any of that.

At least we can talk to Victus to get some of the history on the other side of the Krogan. All we can get out of Raan is fleet composition. Anyone who hasn't read the books or played previous titles will be left completely in the dark.

The geth are a more complicated issue. We've seen how superior the geth under reaper control become so I do not think the free geth could have fought against Sovereign and the heretics. As far as we can tell the geth free of reaper control never actually harmed anyone other than in self defense. The story is also a bit manipulative but I'm only going strictly of what we can know for a fact. The biggest thing here is that when you talk to Legion you get an idea of what all geth want to say to you rather than one individual so the question is do you trust them? Are they trying to manipulate you? These are VERY hard to answer as the survival of the geth is at stake and we've seen them willing to side with the reapers. The final and biggest problem is that after they say in ME2 not to accept the reapers' advancements and that they want to make their own future the only way to achieve peace is to let them all signifficantly advance with reaper code. Then you learn they start uploading into the suits of quarians and if you listen to Javik you learn that AIs in his cycle did this too and it went horribly wrong.

When posed with the prospect I agreed and finalized a peace because it makes sense that if the crucible is a super weapon that eliminates reapers it would likely also eliminate or be able to eliminate other AIs that make heavy use of reaper technology as patterns and similarities would be there...at least this seems to be something Shepard should be able to figure out and why I usually choose destroy.

[Bob Garbage]

If you support the Krogans with Wreav as their leader, you're a ****ty commander Shepard.

[Darth_Trethon]

Steelcan wrote...

Darth_Trethon wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Darth_Trethon wrote...

And a race of people that know only violence, murder and destruction since birth are then supposed to be "peaceful" to everyone else.....did you actually give any thought to this and how stupid it sounds?

. Only if they are stuck in the same clan warfare structure that has dominated them for millennia.  

And if murder is all they know since they are toddlers that is the ONLY structure they will ever be capable of and war and distruction is something they will never be able to put aside.

. That assumes human psychology.  Krogan are not human

No, they're a lot worse and far less capable of not being extremely destructive and violent....I see no reason to assume they could be peaceful if the first thing they ever learn is killing.

[Trav-O]

You don't see enough of the Salarian troubles and life to build them a strong case. Despite wanting multiple playthroughs, I was never able to kill Wrex on Vermire. I wanted to, then when i got down to it, twice, I couldn't do it. So, no, I somehow have been taken in by Krogan bromance.

[Steelcan]

Darth_Trethon wrote...

No, they're a lot worse and far less capable of not being extremely destructive and violent....I see no reason to assume they could be peaceful if the first thing they ever learn is killing.

. Again, applying human psychology to an alien species.

[Darth_Trethon]

Steelcan wrote...

Darth_Trethon wrote...

No, they're a lot worse and far less capable of not being extremely destructive and violent....I see no reason to assume they could be peaceful if the first thing they ever learn is killing.

. Again, applying human psychology to an alien species.

The bottom line is you have no remotely reasonable argument as to why this would work....you don't gamble on something that could wipe out all other life forms. Certainties are imperative in the situation or the genophage stays.

Especially when all available evidence supports my points.

Modifié par Darth_Trethon, 04 mars 2013 - 03:24 .

[Slappy Ya Face]

What king of jack*** would stab wrex in the back?

[Steelcan]

Darth_Trethon wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Darth_Trethon wrote...

No, they're a lot worse and far less capable of not being extremely destructive and violent....I see no reason to assume they could be peaceful if the first thing they ever learn is killing.

. Again, applying human psychology to an alien species.

The bottom line is you have no remotely reasonable argument as to why this would work....you don't gamble on something that could wipe out all other life forms. Certainties are imperative in the situation or the genophage stays.

Especially when all available evidence supports my points.

. I'm not gambling. If it doesn't work out Genophage 2.0. But the EC makes it clear that it does work out with Wrex and Eve.

[DeinonSlayer]

Darth_Trethon wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...
Same damn thing with the Geth Consensus mission.

Genocide? Isolationism? Letting the Heretics attack? No, you're supposed to like the Geth now - we won't mention any of that.

At least we can talk to Victus to get some of the history on the other side of the Krogan. All we can get out of Raan is fleet composition. Anyone who hasn't read the books or played previous titles will be left completely in the dark.

The geth are a more complicated issue. We've seen how superior the geth under reaper control become so I do not think the free geth could have fought against Sovereign and the heretics. As far as we can tell the geth free of reaper control never actually harmed anyone other than in self defense. The story is also a bit manipulative but I'm only going strictly of what we can know for a fact. The biggest thing here is that when you talk to Legion you get an idea of what all geth want to say to you rather than one individual so the question is do you trust them? Are they trying to manipulate you? These are VERY hard to answer as the survival of the geth is at stake and we've seen them willing to side with the reapers. The final and biggest problem is that after they say in ME2 not to accept the reapers' advancements and that they want to make their own future the only way to achieve peace is to let them all signifficantly advance with reaper code. Then you learn they start uploading into the suits of quarians and if you listen to Javik you learn that AIs in his cycle did this too and it went horribly wrong.

When posed with the prospect I agreed and finalized a peace because it makes sense that if the crucible is a super weapon that eliminates reapers it would likely also eliminate or be able to eliminate other AIs that make heavy use of reaper technology as patterns and similarities would be there...at least this seems to be something Shepard should be able to figure out and why I usually choose destroy.

I hear you - there is ample reason to question their trustworthiness, as there is with the Krogan. My point was about emotional manipulation. What I was referring to was the other side of the morning war. The third game makes no mention of how the Geth wiped out 99% of the entire Quarian population in the space of a year. That wasn't self-defense - they treated the entire species as a threat and acted to eliminate that threat. They spent centuries killing anyone who entered their territory without making any attempt to communicate and did nothing about the heretics until they were directly threatened by them - if Legion alone could take on the entire Heretic collective, I don't see why the Geth couldn't have acted sooner (and if the Geth Heretics were really a 5% minority, why does the Geth war asset lose 1/3rd of its value if you destroy them?). None of this is brought up in dialogue in ME3 - you have to read the codex and do the math on the casualty figures yourself or be familiar with the extended universe to even be aware of it.

Victus tells us about the last stand on Menae, the Krogan use of asteroids as weapons in the rebellions. He provides a balance to the Genophage arc which the Geth arc lacks. Really, there should have been a chance to question Gerrel, or for Raan to talk about something besides fleet composition. Get the history from both sides, even if one side or both has a distorted or biased view of events.

[Artifex_Imperius]

even if the krogans were not that violent and only defensive. they multiply too fast and they'd probably strip a planets resource in a year or two. entire systems in decades.
and then you rememeber the phrase
"We impose order on the chaos of organic evolution.." and
"You represent chaos, we represent order. Every organic civilization must be harvested in order to bring order to the chaos."
these quotes make more sense when dealing with the genophage.

[DeinonSlayer]

Trav-O wrote...

You don't see enough of the Salarian troubles and life to build them a strong case. Despite wanting multiple playthroughs, I was never able to kill Wrex on Vermire. I wanted to, then when i got down to it, twice, I couldn't do it. So, no, I somehow have been taken in by Krogan bromance.

Just start a playthrough in ME2. Wrex is dead, the opposite-gender VS is alive, the Council and Rachni Queen are dead.

[simonrana]

Steelcan wrote...

Darth_Trethon wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Darth_Trethon wrote...

And a race of people that know only violence, murder and destruction since birth are then supposed to be "peaceful" to everyone else.....did you actually give any thought to this and how stupid it sounds?

. Only if they are stuck in the same clan warfare structure that has dominated them for millennia.  

And if murder is all they know since they are toddlers that is the ONLY structure they will ever be capable of and war and distruction is something they will never be able to put aside.

. That assumes human psychology.  Krogan are not human

Are you being willfully ignorant?! We know a lot about krogan psychology from the game - they are naturally extremely violent. Male krogan aren't even capable of travel with their own kind in the limited spaces of a space ship unless they're knocked out with drugs. And pretty much their entire remembered cultural history is one that celebrated violence.

If this is to be changed, if Krogan society is to ever to become compatible with that of the council races (humanity included) then their culture would need to evolve towards a more peaceful ideology. Do you really see this happening whilst they retain the cultural ideology that it's okay to leave your young to fight to the death?

Also, if the parents aren't traumatised by watching their young kill each other, I can't how or why they would be traumatised by giving birth to still-borns. The only thing traumatic about the latter scenario would be that they failed to give birth to any young, which is quite a different thing.

[Steelcan]

simonrana wrote...
Are you being willfully ignorant?! We know a lot about krogan psychology from the game - they are naturally extremely violent. Male krogan aren't even capable of travel with their own kind in the limited spaces of a space ship unless they're knocked out with drugs. And pretty much their entire remembered cultural history is one that celebrated violence.

If this is to be changed, if Krogan society is to ever to become compatible with that of the council races (humanity included) then their culture would need to evolve towards a more peaceful ideology. Do you really see this happening whilst they retain the cultural ideology that it's okay to leave your young to fight to the death?

Also, if the parents aren't traumatised by watching their young kill each other, I can't how or why they would be traumatised by giving birth to still-borns. The only thing traumatic about the latter scenario would be that they failed to give birth to any young, which is quite a different thing.

. I never said I agreed with this idea.  I said it would work to reduce population growth, nothing more.

[Steelcan]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Trav-O wrote...

You don't see enough of the Salarian troubles and life to build them a strong case. Despite wanting multiple playthroughs, I was never able to kill Wrex on Vermire. I wanted to, then when i got down to it, twice, I couldn't do it. So, no, I somehow have been taken in by Krogan bromance.

Just start a playthrough in ME2. Wrex is dead, the opposite-gender VS is alive, the Council and Rachni Queen are dead.

. Why I can't do it.