177 réponses à ce sujet

[BACON4BREAKFAST]

Infiltrators are pretty ridiculous, I rarely use them outside of Platinum anymore.

As far as gun balance is concerned, I think for the most part they did a great job.

[Apl_Juice]

Feneckus wrote...

Because I hate that Infiltrators are the best soldiers.

Because I hate that infiltrators are the best engineers.

Because I hate that infiltrators are better melee fighters than freaking Krogans.

Because I hate that infiltrators cause legit kits/weapons to get nerfed.

Because I hate that infiltrators do not give a **** about cooldowns when 95% of other kits do.

Because I hate the fact that a Drell Infiltrator can spam recon mines while a Volus Engineer has to carefully think about it. Not to mention that the Drell's mine will always do more damage, even if the Volus has an Engineering Kit V and a Power Amplifier IV while the Drell can have no equipment and can be specced for weapon damage.

Because I'd like to see something else than infiltrators once in a while.

Now, I don't really want a TC nerf, it's way too late and too many people would be butthurt about it because they'd have no idea how to extract on Gold/Plat without one so they'd quit playing, which is not a good thing obviously.

Funny how those who whine about nerfs conveniently ignore perfectly sound logic like this.  Instead, posts like this are apparently selfish elitism and/or trolling. <_<

[stromguard555]

capn233 wrote...

Apl_J wrote...

Why not? EC practically created the term First Order Optimal Strategy, and since then its used absolutely EVERYWHERE, both in the community members who take design seriously and in the developers. James Portnow knows what the hell he's talking about; if anyone ever wanted to get into game design theory, Extra Credits is the best place to start.

The biggest reason not to watch it is so that you don't have to listen to that annoying voice in the video.

Salarians need love too, you know...

[megabeast37215]

I don't think anything really needs nerfed anymore.... even the lolReegar. The balance of the game is 'pretty much' fine. The Ghost is still quite OP... but the collateral damage of nerfing him would hurt other classes too much. Overloaders and the Havoc don't deserve to be nerfed (again).

I put some time in the Reegar the last few days... while it dominates mooks... even with both piercing options AND Incendiary IV or AP IV ammo... I can still kill armor faster with a slew of other weapons.

[Mindlog]

Tyeme Downs wrote...

Personally, I think people that call for nerfs fall into 2 types. The first type are the hatefuls. They just want to be mean and ruin/destroy everything along their path in life. The second type are the can't do's. The can't do's are unable to play whatever they are calling to have nerfed to it's full potential or just don't like playing it. In both cases, they are negative people and often like to argue for arguements sake.

Admittedly, there are times when something so outclasses everything else that it needs to be nerfed. I usually identify those instances by a) is the item/class used by a much higher rate than should be expected, and if everything else was raised to the same level of effectivness would the game be utterly easy/broken.

Developers prejudices always show in gameplay. There will always be balance issues because comparisons are often qualitative (perception) rather than quantative (a = . However, the positive gamer asks for weaknesses (such as the QFE) to be buffed, rather than the strong (such as the GI) to be nerfed.

I'm a hateful
Buff the Krysae says, I.

[Cyonan]

Apl_J wrote...

Feneckus wrote...

Because I hate that Infiltrators are the best soldiers.

Because I hate that infiltrators are the best engineers.

Because I hate that infiltrators are better melee fighters than freaking Krogans.

Because I hate that infiltrators cause legit kits/weapons to get nerfed.

Because I hate that infiltrators do not give a **** about cooldowns when 95% of other kits do.

Because I hate the fact that a Drell Infiltrator can spam recon mines while a Volus Engineer has to carefully think about it. Not to mention that the Drell's mine will always do more damage, even if the Volus has an Engineering Kit V and a Power Amplifier IV while the Drell can have no equipment and can be specced for weapon damage.

Because I'd like to see something else than infiltrators once in a while.

Now, I don't really want a TC nerf, it's way too late and too many people would be butthurt about it because they'd have no idea how to extract on Gold/Plat without one so they'd quit playing, which is not a good thing obviously.

Funny how those who whine about nerfs conveniently ignore perfectly sound logic like this.  Instead, posts like this are apparently selfish elitism and/or trolling. <_<

It's hardly perfectly sound logic, especially the "best engineer" and "don't care about  cooldowns" part.

But me and Feneckus already had that debate a while ago, so it'd be pretty pointless to do another one.

[rtbh99]

bsn are you ready to nerf the harrier yet

[Apl_Juice]

Still better argued than the opposition.

'Balance doesn't matter in co op' is kind of moot since BioWare has been set on balancing since day one.

[Grunt_Platform]

I actually think, right now, the low power of various things is a bigger issue than the high power of others. Reegar might need some adjustment.. Funny thing is, I think if it did less damage it would work better with the strategies I want it for.

But.. for example, it's not Tactical Cloak's fault that Sabotage is really really weak. That crowd control in general is pretty useless past the "quickly stagger a bunch of guys for a moment" powers like Throw, Proximity Mine and Concussive Shot. Powers that do direct damage, in general, are pretty pathetic on any difficulty, unless they have some extra effect. Mostly this is just that every other crowd control effect in the game is really really slow, and the pace of multiplayer is really fast. Buffing or completely redesigning those powers would be more relevant.

Maybe BioWare would need to nerf Tactical Cloak before they would be comfortable buffing powers like Sabotage. But I don't think Tactical Cloak being strong is what's making most Engineers pretty weak. It's that their powers are weak, or that their strategy doesn't mesh well with the meta-game. Anything that doesn't do truckloads of damage or cause easy stagger is basically ignored on higher difficulties, and that's a meta-game where stuff like Combat Drone or Submission Net really struggles for relevance.

Basically.. if you care about balance, you can't keep nerfs off the table.. but I think you have to be aware of what's actually happening to cause the problem. Maybe Infiltrators setting such a high bar for damage output is a problem. But does anybody actually want to slow Gold games down? The average PUG still takes about half an hour to complete a Gold match.

Modifié par EvanKester, 19 février 2013 - 06:52 .

[capn233]

Cyonan wrote...

But me and Feneckus already had that debate a while ago, so it'd be pretty pointless to do another one.

Tell us again about your QFI's immune system.

[Killahead]

Because Harrier, Reegar, Ghost (I could say infiltrators in general since I do share Feneckus' sentiment, but I'm tired, the nerf war nearly killed me). It's all about creating meaningful choices, not undermining the challenge aspect, and promoting variety.

[GeneralMoskvin_2.0]

Killahead wrote...

Because Harrier, Reegar, Ghost (I could say infiltrators in general since I do share Feneckus' sentiment, but I'm tired, the nerf war nearly killed me). It's all about creating meaningful choices, not undermining the challenge aspect, and promoting variety.

This so much. One should really be spoilt for choice with every weapon. Horrendous damage but extreme kickback, precise, but low ROF, good magazine size but high weight?

Then there are some weapons that seriously overthrow that. And some of them require a nerf, for real.

[Cyonan]

Apl_J wrote...

Still better argued than the opposition.

'Balance doesn't matter in co op' is kind of moot since BioWare has been set on balancing since day one.

True, but then both sides have used poor arguments imo.

It's easy to say why balance is important in a game, and I think that it is even in a single-player game.

Arguing that something specific needs a nerf however, is not quite as easy =P

[Apl_Juice]

EvanKester wrote...

I actually think, right now, the low power of various things is a bigger issue than the high power of others. Reegar might need some adjustment.. Funny thing is, I think if it did less damage it would work better with the strategies I want it for.

But.. for example, it's not Tactical Cloak's fault that Sabotage is really really weak. That crowd control in general is pretty useless past the "quickly stagger a bunch of guys for a moment" powers like Throw, Proximity Mine and Concussive Shot. Powers that do direct damage, in general, are pretty pathetic on any difficulty, unless they have some extra effect. Mostly this is just that every other crowd control effect in the game is really really slow, and the pace of multiplayer is really fast.

Maybe BioWare would need to nerf Tactical Cloak before they would be comfortable buffing powers like Sabotage. But I don't think Tactical Cloak being strong is what's making most Engineers pretty weak.

Basically, if you want things balanced you can't keep nerfs off the table, even if you're still pretty happy with the overall power level of the game.

It also doesn't help that every vanilla human has the exact same traits/passive, which means the deciding factor between an Infiltrator is Tactical Cloak (and power loadout of course).

So yea, I'm in the camp that says Infiltrator is the best everything.

[capn233]

Apl_J wrote...

It also doesn't help that every vanilla human has the exact same traits/passive, which means the deciding factor between an Infiltrator is Tactical Cloak (and power loadout of course).

So yea, I'm in the camp that says Infiltrator is the best everything.

This is correct.

It would have made more sense if the main passive was class based, and the fitness passive was species based.

[KalilKareem]

Apl_J wrote...

EvanKester wrote...

I actually think, right now, the low power of various things is a bigger issue than the high power of others. Reegar might need some adjustment.. Funny thing is, I think if it did less damage it would work better with the strategies I want it for.

But.. for example, it's not Tactical Cloak's fault that Sabotage is really really weak. That crowd control in general is pretty useless past the "quickly stagger a bunch of guys for a moment" powers like Throw, Proximity Mine and Concussive Shot. Powers that do direct damage, in general, are pretty pathetic on any difficulty, unless they have some extra effect. Mostly this is just that every other crowd control effect in the game is really really slow, and the pace of multiplayer is really fast.

Maybe BioWare would need to nerf Tactical Cloak before they would be comfortable buffing powers like Sabotage. But I don't think Tactical Cloak being strong is what's making most Engineers pretty weak.

Basically, if you want things balanced you can't keep nerfs off the table, even if you're still pretty happy with the overall power level of the game.

It also doesn't help that every vanilla human has the exact same traits/passive, which means the deciding factor between an Infiltrator is Tactical Cloak (and power loadout of course).

So yea, I'm in the camp that says Infiltrator is the best everything.

We call this camp "smart camp"

[Arkman279]

Because they either try playing gold with weapons that are to weak and can't get kills over the people that have worked to get the power weapons. Or they think its funny to say nerf nerf nerf hahaha like little trolls.

[KalilKareem]

Arkman279 wrote...

Because they either try playing gold with weapons that are to weak and can't get kills over the people that have worked to get the power weapons. Or they think its funny to say nerf nerf nerf hahaha like little trolls.

Whereas you, dear sir, reside in "other camp"

[Cyonan]

KalilKareem wrote...

Apl_J wrote...

It also doesn't help that every vanilla human has the exact same traits/passive, which means the deciding factor between an Infiltrator is Tactical Cloak (and power loadout of course).

So yea, I'm in the camp that says Infiltrator is the best everything.

We call this camp "smart camp"

So Infiltrators are the best Engineers?

Tell me about your spec that puts out more tech damage than the N7 Paladin =P

[Chi_Mangetsu]

Well said, vonSlash. I just played several Silver matches with three PUGs that, for the most part, wouldn't survive Silver without their level 1-2 Harriers and/or someone of my caliber or better to carry them through the match. The latter of which I did enough of the time anyway. They weren't terrible, but they didn't bother to use equip beyond gear mods (better than nothing at all) and only one ever gelled. They were pretty awful as using cover effectively and went down way too often. I would just rather not have to think, "If these guys swap out weapons they are doomed" you know?

[Grunt_Platform]

Apl_J wrote...

It also doesn't help that every vanilla human has the exact same traits/passive, which means the deciding factor between an Infiltrator is Tactical Cloak (and power loadout of course).

So yea, I'm in the camp that says Infiltrator is the best everything.

Yeah, making everybody of the same race share passives was a big mistake on BioWare's part. It keeps them from buffing the power damage bonuses of Engineers, or from giving the base human soldier more health (the kit's only major failing).

Still.. I'd say Infiltrators aren't the problem. Vanguards and Soldiers actually keep pace with them pretty well, as do a handful of other classes. An N7 Destroyer or even a Geth Trooper will still set the bar for damage output and completion speed really high, and in a metagame that fast, slow crowd control (the specialty of Engineers and some Adepts and Sentinels) is going to have a hard time staying relevant.

And you can't make Crowd Control relevant without redesigning every CC power, and just about every enemy unit in the game.

Modifié par EvanKester, 19 février 2013 - 07:08 .

[KalilKareem]

Cyonan wrote...

KalilKareem wrote...

Apl_J wrote...

It also doesn't help that every vanilla human has the exact same traits/passive, which means the deciding factor between an Infiltrator is Tactical Cloak (and power loadout of course).

So yea, I'm in the camp that says Infiltrator is the best everything.

We call this camp "smart camp"

So Infiltrators are the best Engineers?

Tell me about your spec that puts out more tech damage than the N7 Paladin =P

Who cares if its tech damage? Any infiltrator outdamages a paladin with ease.

[Apl_Juice]

Cyonan wrote...

KalilKareem wrote...

Apl_J wrote...

It also doesn't help that every vanilla human has the exact same traits/passive, which means the deciding factor between an Infiltrator is Tactical Cloak (and power loadout of course).

So yea, I'm in the camp that says Infiltrator is the best everything.

We call this camp "smart camp"

So Infiltrators are the best Engineers?

Tell me about your spec that puts out more tech damage than the N7 Paladin =P

So if you want to be the best engineer you have to use the Sentinel with what is probably one of the most convenient glitches in the game? That's a single outlier; every other engineer is simply out of luck then, I suppose.

[Grunt_Platform]

KalilKareem wrote...

Who cares if its tech damage? Any infiltrator outdamages a paladin with ease.

So you're saying they're not the best Engineers, but the best at damage dealing?

No, seriously. What is the specialty of Engineers? Most of them arently designed for tech combos, or even defense stripping, so it can't be that.

Modifié par EvanKester, 19 février 2013 - 07:12 .