177 réponses à ce sujet

[Cyonan]

KalilKareem wrote...

Who cares if its tech damage? Any infiltrator outdamages a paladin with ease.

They aren't the best at doing tech or biotic damage.

They aren't the most durable, as even the Turian Ghost wont match the Krogan Vanguard.

They're the highest DPS class, but purely because of the GI and TGI. The other Infiltrators all can be matched on damage output.

Claiming they're the "best at everything" is a poor argument due to it not actually being true. It's people trying to make Infiltrators look better than they really are.

[KalilKareem]

Cyonan wrote...

KalilKareem wrote...

Who cares if its tech damage? Any infiltrator outdamages a paladin with ease.

They aren't the best at doing tech or biotic damage.

They aren't the most durable, as even the Turian Ghost wont match the Krogan Vanguard.

They're the highest DPS class, but purely because of the GI and TGI. The other Infiltrators all can be matched on damage output.

Claiming they're the "best at everything" is a poor argument due to it not actually being true. It's people trying to make Infiltrators look better than they really are.

You try to make it sound like this is some advanced multi-role combat simulator. It is not. ME3MP is whack-a-mole. Most DPS wins period. Hence infiltrators are in fact best at "everything", albeit this "everything" is a tad limited in scope by its context.

[KalilKareem]

EvanKester wrote...

KalilKareem wrote...

Who cares if its tech damage? Any infiltrator outdamages a paladin with ease.

So you're saying they're not the best Engineers, but the best at damage dealing?

No, seriously. What is the specialty of Engineers? Most of them arently designed for tech combos, or even defense stripping, so it can't be that.

I dare say that a GI with a Claymore is significantly better at "defence stripping" than any engineer

Edit: and tech combos, well, its just a way of dealing damage. A way that incidentally is much worse than the good ol' TC->Claymore-to-the-face way

Modifié par KalilKareem, 19 février 2013 - 07:24 .

[dasfranken]

I don't think anything is broken to the point of needing a nerf this late in the game cycle (we'll see what the next DLC brings though). I do think the next MP game will need to redesign some powers (assuming they make an appearance of course) and hopefully not give 'shared' powers/passives to classes in order to prevent major collateral damage to classes undeserving of a nerf.

I do not support the idea of a simple nerf in most cases, but if something else is buffed/changed to compensate I'm usually fine with it. Nerfing something that's powerful doesn't make up for it lacking good opposition on its own, but genuinely creating more viable options for the player is a good thing in the long run if done correctly.

Good change: The original tactical cloak nerf was good as it made duration vs damage actually a choice and many sniper rifles eventually got a buff because of it. Infiltrators are still very powerful, but more classes can viably use snipers as a result.

Bad change: Pet nerf. They lost their ability to distract many units, and were not buffed to compensate. I suppose the update to fire explosions could be considered as the trade off, but every class benefits from that (with incendiary ammo), not just engineers.

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

Because an average of 3 out of every 4 characters in matches are invisible men?

[Cyonan]

KalilKareem wrote...

You try to make it sound like this is some advanced multi-role combat simulator. It is not. ME3MP is whack-a-mole. Most DPS wins period. Hence infiltrators are in fact best at "everything", albeit this "everything" is a tad limited in scope by its context.

There is more than just DPS however. Platinum is basically a DPS race but the game isn't balanced around Platinum so that makes for a poor argument.

The Kroguard doesn't die for the most part which gets considered in his balance when he doesn't do as much damage as the Geth Infiltrator.

The only Infiltrators with unmatched damage output are the Geth Infiltrator and Turian Ghost with specific weapons.

Trying to claim that all Infiltrators are the best at DPS is still not an accurate statement imo.

[Dama733]

Zero132132 wrote...

xandax86 wrote...

Because people dont like being outscored when playing on their crappy builds.

That's absolute bull****. Most of the balance cries comes from the best players, not the worst.

Which is why when they have their prized Gold solo build outscored by what they see as an inferior build, they come on here and whine for nerfs.

Modifié par Dama733, 19 février 2013 - 07:31 .

[Grunt_Platform]

KalilKareem wrote...

I dare say that a GI with a Claymore is significantly better at "defence stripping" than any engineer

Edit: and tech combos, well, its just a way of dealing damage. A way that incidentally is much worse than the good ol' TC->Claymore-to-the-face way

Yes. As I said, most Engineers aren't well built for defense stripping. Or tech combos. Your average engineer just isn't built for DPS or a spawn bombing.

Seriously, the issue with Engineers is that the game is a damage race. That's not what Engineers are built for. Infiltrators aren't better Engineers than Engineers, because being an Engineer doesn't mean much for the kind of game the MP is. Infiltrators are better damage dealers than Engineers, which has always been the case.

What you're proving is that the Infiltrators are well aligned with the metagame. The same is true of the best Soldier and Vanguard kits, as well as the better Sentinels and Adepts.

This doesn't mean Infiltrators are overpowered. It means the "support" powers that distinguish most Engineers are woefully out of synch with the game. The solution to that is to buff the support powers. Comparing the Human Engineer to the Volus speaks volumes about what it takes to be effective support in ME3 MP.

Modifié par EvanKester, 19 février 2013 - 07:39 .

[Tyeme Downs]

Cyonan wrote...

KalilKareem wrote...

Who cares if its tech damage? Any infiltrator outdamages a paladin with ease.

They aren't the best at doing tech or biotic damage.

They aren't the most durable, as even the Turian Ghost wont match the Krogan Vanguard.

They're the highest DPS class, but purely because of the GI and TGI. The other Infiltrators all can be matched on damage output.

Claiming they're the "best at everything" is a poor argument due to it not actually being true. It's people trying to make Infiltrators look better than they really are.

 Does being the best at avoiding/dropping aggro count for anything?

[Cyonan]

Tyeme Downs wrote...

 Does being the best at avoiding/dropping aggro count for anything?

If it does the Sentinels take that too, in my opinion, since they have one with invisibility and Decoy + Combat Drone =P

Modifié par Cyonan, 19 février 2013 - 07:34 .

[mackfactor]

I think the game is pretty well balanced right now, actually. I'm fine with the Reegar and Harrier as they are, but wouldn't freak out if there were a slight nerf, particularly if it were something like recoil or reload speed. But I'm pretty happy with the state of the game. I understand that the Harrier will out DEEPS just about everything, but that doesn't mean I feel compelled to use it on every build. I think we're good where we are.

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

EvanKester wrote...
Yes. As I said, most Engineers aren't well built for defense stripping. Or tech combos. Your average engineer just isn't built to be a DPS kit or a spawn bomber.

Seriously, the issue with Engineers is that the game is a damage race. That's not what Engineers are built for. Infiltrators aren't better Engineers than Engineers, because being an Engineer doesn't mean much for the kind of game the MP is. Infiltrators are better damage dealers than Engineers, which has always been the case.

What you're proving is that the Infiltrators are well aligned with the metagame. The same is true of the best Soldier and Vanguard kits, as well as the better Sentinels and Adepts.

Yep, DPS is king in ME3 multiplayer.  Engineers once had pet that were effective for crowd control (for more than Geth) but that was stripped from them and Bioware made changes to push the game to a faster pace to the detriment of squishier classes and "hold the line" classes.

The adepts that can still do ok (at least on more enclosed maps) are the grenade chunkers and the Fury because they are not as cooldown dependant (grenades have no cooldown and Anihilarion Field autoprimes.)  The other adepts can't get off their combos fast enough to keep the primes from being overwritten or the primed enemy from being killed by squadmates. 

[Zero132132]

Tyeme Downs wrote...

Zero132132 wrote...

Have you actually READ any of the balance threads? Most of them are started by or participated in by some of the most capable players on the forums, and most of the same players DO call for the weaker weapons and classes to be buffed.

I have to say, your reply has me perplexed.  Your title asks "Why exactly do people still want nerfs?" and I replied to that question.  You response to my opinion is to defend threads that call for nerfs.  I have to wonder if your arguing for arguments sake.

Please clarify your thoughts so I can reasonably understand where your coming from.  You asked why people still want nerfs.  Your implying that nothing needs (in your opinion) nerfs from this point forward.  Your reply asks if I have read any of the balance threads.  Of course I have, but that is in the past.  Your question/title is about the present to future.  Why are you bringing up the past which is irrelevant to your statement?

Threads discussing balance are not the same as threads that call for nerfs (though there is some overlap).  Why are you bringing up balance threads in a reply to my opinion about people that still call for nerfs?  It doesn't make sense.  You go on to say "the same players DO call for the weaker weapons and classes to be buffed" in reference to capable players discussing balance.  Buffs are the opposite of nerfs.  Why are you defending nerf threads by bringing up calls for buffs?

So, as I said I'm perplexed by your reply.  Your OP/question was about nerfs in the present/future, and you reply to my post is about balance/buff threads in the past.  Reguardless, I'll attempt to reply to your confusing response.

Being a capable player does not exclude someone from being a hateful person.  It just excluded them from the can't do's.  People have all sorts of motivators when they post.  A complex, well reasoned arguement can be made about just about anything and still be wrong.  Hobbs Leviathan is a great example.  

I think my second paragraph lays out that there are legitimate times when something is so out of balance that it needs to be reduced (nerfed).  Balance threads often expose those times as people discuss the issue and reach reasonable concensus that a) there is a problem, and what should be done about it.  The developers don't always agree with the players.

It is up to the developers to sift the wheat from the chaff when making changes to the game based on player input.  There are far more nerf calls by the hateful and can't do's than legitimate problems with overpowered mechanics.  It's easier to identify the strong and tear them down than to identify weakness (often our own) and bolster it.

Alright, the part I was responding to...

The first type are the hatefuls. They just want to be mean and ruin/destroy everything along their path in life. The second type are the can't do's. The can't do's are unable to play whatever they are calling to have nerfed to it's full potential or just don't like playing it. In both cases, they are negative people and often like to argue for arguements sake.

My point was that they aren't usually the can't-dos, and if they want buffs to weaker weapons, they clearly don't just want to destroy everything.

[Tyeme Downs]

EvanKester wrote...

Yes. As I said, most Engineers aren't well built for defense stripping. Or tech combos. Your average engineer just isn't built to be a DPS kit or a spawn bomber.

Seriously, the issue with Engineers is that the game is a damage race. That's not what Engineers are built for. Infiltrators aren't better Engineers than Engineers, because being an Engineer doesn't mean much for the kind of game the MP is. Infiltrators are better damage dealers than Engineers, which has always been the case.

What you're proving is that the Infiltrators are well aligned with the metagame. The same is true of the best Soldier and Vanguard kits, as well as the better Sentinels and Adepts.

Putting aside the fact that I love playing engineers, would it be fair to say that the engineers role is not well defined?  Perhaps because they are not well built for defense stripping, or tech combos that their role in a group becomes muddled?  That perhaps that if their CC was a bit more effective and more exclusive to the engineer (and perhaps adept) class that they could feel more like contributers without having to compete directly with DPSers like the Infiltrators?

[Feneckus]

TGI's overload is much much better than a Human Engineer's. Even if the Human Engineer has an Engineering Kit and Power Amplifier IV. To be able to strip a phantom's barrier, which is a pretty big deal for your survival in close quarters, a Human Engineer has to spec for maximum single target damage and I believe he needs a power amplifier something. The Turian Ghost can do that if he specs for max crowd control and for weapon damage ..............

Same thing with GI's proxy mine vs Volus Engineer's.

Or SI's Energy Drain vs Salarian Engineer's.

Or FQI's Sabotage vs Turian Engineer's.

Or Drell's recon mine vs Volus Engineer's (most unbalanced thing in the whole game IMO).

All this while they're able to have a Claymore or another ridiculously heavy loadout without any cooldown penalty.

And then you have the debuffs (proxy mines, tac scan, cryo blast) that are more effective on infiltrators.

So Infiltrators ARE better engineers. The only comparison that doesn't work is MQE vs MQI, they're both equal. Although the MQI has huge advantages in boss killing and survivability, obviously.

Also, map/enemy ? It doesn't matter for an infiltrator. They're just as comfortable on White/Reapers than Glacier/Collectors or Rio/Cerberus or Condor/Geth (except for Shadow/Huntress). How many kits can say the same ?

Modifié par Feneckus, 19 février 2013 - 07:42 .

[Apl_Juice]

If its more than DPS, then revisit the Paladin argument. He has a slightly better tech damage output, but an Infiltrator has slightly less tech damage while boasting extremely higher survivability, movement options, and weight dependency.

The Asari Infiltrator doesn't have the strongest or fastest BEs, but she does have the strongest ranged, instant, non-grenade DoT power because of Cloak which, may I remind you, comes with a host of other benefits.

The Drell Infiltrator's Recon Mine is better than the Volus', and his Homing Grenade is better than the Demolisher. And by better, I mean stronger AND safer, and that's by taking ONLY Tactical Cloak to rank 4; no passive.

The TGI has better survivability than the Krogan Vanguard in certain situations, as Stims don't have a cooldown, nor do they put you next to an enemy, all while having, once again, the many options given by Tactical Cloak.

The GI... well, he's the GI. I don't have to explain him.

Meanwhile, only the QME and Paladin stand out as real tech users, one of which is completely grenade dependant and the other has an extremely beneficial glitch. Outside of their slightly better tech damage, they have nothing but the Paladin shield, which doesn't even come close to Tactical Cloak. How is that not an issue?

[Grunt_Platform]

Tyeme Downs wrote...

Putting aside the fact that I love playing engineers, would it be fair to say that the engineers role is not well defined?  Perhaps because they are not well built for defense stripping, or tech combos that their role in a group becomes muddled?  That perhaps that if their CC was a bit more effective and more exclusive to the engineer (and perhaps adept) class that they could feel more like contributers without having to compete directly with DPSers like the Infiltrators?

Very fair to say! In fact, I'd call that an indisputible fact!

And.. yeah. I think that's a good idea. It's already almost there, the issue is just.. aside from the Volus Engineer, those CC and debuff power combinations that are more unique to Engineers just aren't that strong. Pets are well balanced for Silver, they just don't make the transition to Gold very well at all.

Modifié par EvanKester, 19 février 2013 - 07:49 .

[Zero132132]

Tyeme Downs wrote...

Cyonan wrote...

KalilKareem wrote...

Who cares if its tech damage? Any infiltrator outdamages a paladin with ease.

They aren't the best at doing tech or biotic damage.

They aren't the most durable, as even the Turian Ghost wont match the Krogan Vanguard.

They're the highest DPS class, but purely because of the GI and TGI. The other Infiltrators all can be matched on damage output.

Claiming they're the "best at everything" is a poor argument due to it not actually being true. It's people trying to make Infiltrators look better than they really are.

Does being the best at avoiding/dropping aggro count for anything?

Not if you're claiming the other stuff too. Each enemy runs through their targetting cycle once anyways, so if you claim they can ignore cooldowns, they have to do so by decloaking immediately. They'll be cloaked for, IIRC, 1 second if they do this, so it won't actually work as an aggro dump. If you carry big, heavy weapons, the cooldown penalty becomes a big problem to overall DPS if you DO want to drop aggro.

[Apl_Juice]

Dama733 wrote...

Zero132132 wrote...

xandax86 wrote...

Because people dont like being outscored when playing on their crappy builds.

That's absolute bull****. Most of the balance cries comes from the best players, not the worst.

Which is why when they have their prized Gold solo build outscored by what they see as an inferior build, they come on here and whine for nerfs.

What is easier? Nerf one thing that is far and away the best option, or try to buff 7 things without disrupting difficulty? Not to mention, those same people ask for buffs much more than they ask for nerfs.

[Zero132132]

This is getting off-track quickly. The point I was making is that the result of the current imbalances hasn't been homogenization of the playerbase, and nothing is so much better than anything else that using other stuff becomes a form of gimping yourself.

I still don't get the Infiltrator praise. They're the best at high single-target damage, and they are unambiguously the best for Platinum because of this, since there aren't really crowds to control, but they aren't the best at CC or group damage, at least in my opinion. You don't really NEED a huge damage output to kill anything but the bosses quickly, so I guess I don't think their high DPS matters outside of Platinum, since there'll be at most 2 bosses on the field on Gold and below.

[KalilKareem]

Cyonan wrote...

KalilKareem wrote...

You try to make it sound like this is some advanced multi-role combat simulator. It is not. ME3MP is whack-a-mole. Most DPS wins period. Hence infiltrators are in fact best at "everything", albeit this "everything" is a tad limited in scope by its context.

There is more than just DPS however. Platinum is basically a DPS race but the game isn't balanced around Platinum so that makes for a poor argument.

The Kroguard doesn't die for the most part which gets considered in his balance when he doesn't do as much damage as the Geth Infiltrator.

The only Infiltrators with unmatched damage output are the Geth Infiltrator and Turian Ghost with specific weapons.

Trying to claim that all Infiltrators are the best at DPS is still not an accurate statement imo.

I do not share you sense of relevance towards comparing "maximum turrent damage on silver". Gold is also a damage race if your dps is high enough. If you do not believe me; ask any speed running group out there.

I don't know what other classes you think matches for example a MQI in terms of damage output. Should be hard to match that massive buff to grenade damage AND wepon damage one might think. But perhaps yu can enlighten us towards some awsome butt kicking engineer builds?

[Grunt_Platform]

Apl_J wrote...

Meanwhile, only the QME and Paladin stand out as real tech users, one of which is completely grenade dependant and the other has an extremely beneficial glitch. Outside of their slightly better tech damage, they have nothing but the Paladin shield, which doesn't even come close to Tactical Cloak. How is that not an issue?

I'd say it's totally an issue. But the issue isn't that Engineers can't compete with Infiltrators for raw spike damage.

Damage spikes and damage avoidance are kind of the Infiltrator thing. Considering how well kits like Turian Soldier, N7 Destroyer, Krogan Battlemaster, Drell Vanguard and even the Geth Trooper hold up next to Infiltrators, I'd say the DPS classes are pretty well balanced with each other. The GI and the TGI are the only kits that seem to really break Cloak, and that's still debateable.

But.. that Combat Drone, Sentry Turret, Decoy and Incinerate are all kinda weak? That's a problem, yeah.

I'd say the Demolisher, and Volus Engineer fare pretty well too, btw. Volus Engineer can't deal as much damage with his powers as the Infiltrators he shares them with can, but he still does well with them. Having a single kit that can, at the same time, debuff large groups of enemies, stagger them, and keep the team alive is pretty handy.

(also.. why does being grenade dependant count against the QME but not the TGI?...)


EDIT: A bit more on point to the OP. I think he's got a point. Despite all these edges Infiltrators have, most of the kits they're outclassing are held back by weak powers. There are plenty of kits that can stand on even enough ground with the Infiltrators to keep the playerbase from just playing Infiltrators 24/7.

Infiltrators aren't a problem there, it's weak classes (Human Engineer? Saboteur? Hunter?) being weak. Weapons are in a similar spot. Reegar and Harrier are a bit iffy.. but in the Harrier's case, the non-UR ARs would be underpowered even if the Harrier weren't around.

Modifié par EvanKester, 19 février 2013 - 08:12 .

[Tyeme Downs]

Zero132132 wrote...

[Alright, the part I was responding to...

The first type are the hatefuls. They just want to be mean and ruin/destroy everything along their path in life. The second type are the can't do's. The can't do's are unable to play whatever they are calling to have nerfed to it's full potential or just don't like playing it. In both cases, they are negative people and often like to argue for arguements sake.

My point was that they aren't usually the can't-dos, and if they want buffs to weaker weapons, they clearly don't just want to destroy everything.

If it's ok, I'm going to agree to disagree with you on this.  While the are some posts that that are just balance discussions, I think there are far more posts from the hatefuls and can't do's.  The ones demanding that _____ be fixed because it's "unfair" in some way.

The difference in our perspective may be how we're looking at it.  I'm thinking more about origional posters, not the entire thread that follows.  I'm also thinking about (and replying about) origional posters who are demanding a nerf because it replies to your title.  I'n not counting buff threads, or real balance threads, or any other thread that does not meet the still want nerfs criteria.  Just nerf threads.

I will agree that some people really want balance.  However, when I look at a nerf, balance, buff thread I try to take into account not only what the poster says, but what I believe the consequenses of a successful petition would be.  This often reveals alterior motives.  I find that often origional posters are not so benevolent as they try to appear.

[Apl_Juice]

EvanKester wrote...

Apl_J wrote...

Meanwhile, only the QME and Paladin stand out as real tech users, one of which is completely grenade dependant and the other has an extremely beneficial glitch. Outside of their slightly better tech damage, they have nothing but the Paladin shield, which doesn't even come close to Tactical Cloak. How is that not an issue?

I'd say it's totally an issue. But the issue isn't that Engineers can't compete with Infiltrators for raw spike damage.

Damage spikes and damage avoidance are kind of the Infiltrator thing. Considering how well kits like Turian Soldier, N7 Destroyer, Krogan Battlemaster, Drell Vanguard and even the Geth Trooper hold up next to Infiltrators, I'd say the DPS classes are pretty well balanced with each other. The GI and the TGI are the only kits that seem to really break Cloak.

But.. that Combat Drone, Sentry Turret, Decoy and Incinerate are all kinda weak? That's a problem, yeah.

I'd say the Demolisher, and Volus Engineer fare pretty well too, btw. Volus Engineer can't deal as much damage with his powers as the Infiltrators he shares them with can, but he still does well with them.

(also.. why does being grenade dependant count against the QME but not the TGI?...)


EDIT: A bit more on point to the OP. I think he's got a point. Despite all these edges Infiltrators have, most of the kits they're outclassing are held back by weak powers. There are plenty of kits that can stand on even enough ground with the Infiltrators to keep the playerbase from just playing Infiltrators 24/7.

Infiltrators aren't a problem there, it's weak classes (Human Engineer? Saboteur? Hunter?) being weak. 

I'm not saying Infiltrators are the sole problem with this game. Remember, back during the demo/early release days, where cooperation, loadout, and skill were crucial? Where a Phantom sprinting at you was 'OH SH**!' and a Gold solo was praise-worthy? Well, the metagame has moved past that. Now, DPS and a bit a of survivability completely overshadows every other component. Well, the game still thinks its in that early phase, and that's a huge problem. We don't need Volus' to Shield Boost in order to survive. We don't need a Tactical Scan or a Geth to tell us where the spawns are. We know the game inside and out, to where tactics like shield-stripping, scouting, and flanking aren't necessary anymore. 

Once we passed that benchmark where we can do all this amazeballs solo'ing, EVERYONE and their mother went for that build immediately. Now, its the only thing that matters once your manifest gets a few gems. The kits that can't do those things are now useless. In order to make them relevant again, BioWare ought to revise the entire game. Of course, that's out of the question, so we rely on hotfixes. But like I said to someone else in this thread: What is easier? Nerfing one thing, or buffing dozens, while maintaining difficulty? Our lower/mid-tier'd kits already create a solid baseline of relative effectiveness, while a tiny few kits are grossly overpowered outliers? Why move everything up and risk breaking the game? Why not just bump those few kits down a small notch?

EDIT: The QME is useless without grenades, while the TGI can still avoid damage comepletely with TC still and still has normal DPS

Modifié par Apl_J, 19 février 2013 - 08:26 .

[Cyonan]

KalilKareem wrote...

I do not share you sense of relevance towards comparing "maximum turrent damage on silver". Gold is also a damage race if your dps is high enough. If you do not believe me; ask any speed running group out there.

I don't know what other classes you think matches for example a MQI in terms of damage output. Should be hard to match that massive buff to grenade damage AND wepon damage one might think. But perhaps yu can enlighten us towards some awsome butt kicking engineer builds?

The game is not balanced around speed running either, as evidenced by the fact that not all kits are built for pure DPS. If all you care about is the little number that says how long your game took then yes, damage is the most important thing in the game and there is no reason to ever use anything but the Geth Infiltrator. That is a personal choice however, not how the game was designed.

TC doesn't add that much to Arc Grenade actually. About 320 damage(before modifiers) which the QME will more than make up with his follow up Incinerate that triggers a Tech Burst. Where QMI picks up the majority of his damage is his weapon, as with all Infiltrators. The N7 Demolisher's massive power based passive will nearly make up for it as well since QMIs all spec weapon damage.

However. the king of grenades is still the Drell Adept.

Arc Grenade damage is a bit like the Stim Pack argument. It's great in bursts but if you spam the hell out of them you're going to be out of Thermal Clip Packs by wave 5 unless you're the N7 Demolisher.

Of course, the N7 Paladin who might as well be an Engineer has the best tech damage in the game. Both the N7 Demolisher and the Quarian Male Engineer are capable of nuking spawns because of their Arc Grenades as well.

From the non Engineer group:
> Any weapons based Soldier does amazing damage.
> Anybody with a flamer + acolyte melts everything they look at.
> The Asari Vanguard is a one woman biotic nuclear strike and the Drell Vanguard is just as damaging.
> The Drell Adept clears rooms like a boss and the N7 Fury is a BE machine gun.

Since I consider Platinum a poor measure of balance, the above is all on Gold.