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Why exactly do people still want nerfs?


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#101
Grunt_Platform

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Apl_J wrote...

I'm not saying Infiltrators are the sole problem with this game. Remember, back during the demo/early release days, where cooperation, loadout, and skill were crucial? Where a Phantom sprinting at you was 'OH SH**!' and a Gold solo was praise-worthy? Well, the metagame has moved past that. Now, DPS and a bit a of survivability completely overshadows every other component. Well, the game still thinks its in that early phase, and that's a huge problem. We don't need Volus' to Shield Boost in order to survive. We don't need a Tactical Scan or a Geth to tell us where the spawns are. We know the game inside and out, to where tactics like shield-stripping, scouting, and flanking aren't necessary anymore. 

Once we passed that benchmark where we can do all this amazeballs solo'ing, EVERYONE and their mother went for that build immediately. Now, its the only thing that matters once your manifest gets a few gems. The kits that can't do those things are now useless. In order to make them relevant again, BioWare ought to revise the entire game. Of course, that's out of the question, so we rely on hotfixes. But like I said to someone else in this thread: What is easier? Nerfing one thing, or buffing dozens, while maintaining difficulty? Our lower/mid-tier'd kits already create a solid baseline of relative effectiveness, while a tiny few kits are grossly overpowered outliers? Why move everything up and risk breaking the game? Why not just bump those few kits down a small notch?

I agree almost entirely.

The thing is, I really really don't think Infiltrators are alone at the top, or even alone in being responsible for the problem. Slowing down the game enough to make things like Shield Boost, Biotic Sphere and Decoy more useful at their current level would mean you'd have to nerf a huge huge list of things, or buff the enemies like crazy.

If you slowed down the Infiltrators, then the Soldiers, Vanguards, and just about any kit with a decent grenade would need to be next on the chopping block. That's not a small list of outliers. You'd also need to nerf a huge variety of weapons that let players one-shot, or quickly dispose of Trooper and Lieutennant level enemies. You'd need to nerf Warp and AP ammo too.

I don't think it's really feasible to buff all the CC and support powers to compete, and I don't think it's really feasible to dial back the damage enough to be in line with the "support". You'd have to rebalance every enemy faction, too. But I do think there are fewer classes that are truly underpowered than classes that are are already solid in the current metagame.

I hope, I really hope, BioWare's learning some lessons from this. It's clear they over-corrected on crowd control after it made a joke of ME1. With the small numbers of enemies seen on screen at a time, the speed we can kill them at, and just how slow most 'support' effects are... There's a lot you'd have to change about the game.

ETA: One of the problems is that, when the game launched most of these problems already existed. The gulf between the middle of the road damage dealers and the best DPS kits is smaller now, but nothing ever really happened to make CC more effective.

Oh also forgot to say... only the high end players and speedrunners have completely negated the need for flanking and revealing enemy positions. For the average player, those effects still seeme pretty handy. (I've sure noticed PUGs do better when I light up targets with Tactical Scan or Recon Mine. And live longer when I spam Shield Boost).

ETA2: I really think we need to acknowledge the relatively small list of powers that hold kits back: Carnage, Stasis, Biotic Sphere, Combat Drone, Decoy, Submission Net, Sabotage and Sentry Turret. The other "weak" powers are only slightly so. Pull and Lash are fairly weak, as well, but aren't really holding any kits back, since every kit with them can either make them work, or has other powers that more than compensate. Incinerate and Concussive Shot, if they aren't already solid, are just a few small tweaks away.

Modifié par EvanKester, 19 février 2013 - 09:18 .


#102
Bayonet Hipshot

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Cyonan wrote...

KalilKareem wrote...

Who cares if its tech damage? Any infiltrator outdamages a paladin with ease.


They aren't the best at doing tech or biotic damage.

They aren't the most durable, as even the Turian Ghost wont match the Krogan Vanguard.

They're the highest DPS class, but purely because of the GI and TGI. The other Infiltrators all can be matched on damage output.

Claiming they're the "best at everything" is a poor argument due to it not actually being true. It's people trying to make Infiltrators look better than they really are.


Exactly..the sad part about this is DPS rules everything in the game..Especially on Gold & Platinum...Maybe instead we could find ways to make non DPS more viable..

#103
Blarg

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If I could find it, I'd post Dullahan's thread on this. Explains it pretty well.

Obviously, excessive nerfs and buffs get to me a lot (read: Krysae nerf [overkill], Vindicator nerf [pointless], Piranha/PD buffs [again, pointless], and I don't like either side of those. But balance is important, even in a co-op game.

Edit: Nevermind, found the thread. Read to you heart's content.

Modifié par blaaaaaaaaaarg, 19 février 2013 - 08:38 .


#104
Clearly Balkan

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Because they're stupid nooby scrubs. Also jealousy plays big part too.

Modifié par Clearly Balkan, 19 février 2013 - 08:37 .


#105
Ledgend1221

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The Sin wrote...

Cyonan wrote...

KalilKareem wrote...

Who cares if its tech damage? Any infiltrator outdamages a paladin with ease.


They aren't the best at doing tech or biotic damage.

They aren't the most durable, as even the Turian Ghost wont match the Krogan Vanguard.

They're the highest DPS class, but purely because of the GI and TGI. The other Infiltrators all can be matched on damage output.

Claiming they're the "best at everything" is a poor argument due to it not actually being true. It's people trying to make Infiltrators look better than they really are.


Exactly..the sad part about this is DPS rules everything in the game..Especially on Gold & Platinum...Maybe instead we could find ways to make non DPS more viable..

Remove Thermal clips from ammo boxes.

#106
Zero132132

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The Sin wrote...

Cyonan wrote...

KalilKareem wrote...

Who cares if its tech damage? Any infiltrator outdamages a paladin with ease.


They aren't the best at doing tech or biotic damage.

They aren't the most durable, as even the Turian Ghost wont match the Krogan Vanguard.

They're the highest DPS class, but purely because of the GI and TGI. The other Infiltrators all can be matched on damage output.

Claiming they're the "best at everything" is a poor argument due to it not actually being true. It's people trying to make Infiltrators look better than they really are.


Exactly..the sad part about this is DPS rules everything in the game..Especially on Gold & Platinum...Maybe instead we could find ways to make non DPS more viable..

On Platinum, I agree that DPS rules everything in the game. On Gold, there are enough mooks for non-DPS stuff to be very valuable. High DPS only really makes it easier to kill bosses. Smaller enemies don't have enough health for DPS spikes to be meaningful, and on Gold, there's at most 2 boss units on the field. There are other things like Scions and Brutes and the like, but even there, a good player with a good weapon can take them down quickly.

I just don't get it. I do about as well as an Asari Adept as I do with any Infiltrator except the GI (maybe TGI, but I hate the Harrier). I focus on different enemies and different aspects of the battle, but I don't ever feel gimped using classes that so many people claim are unambiguously worse than infiltrators.

#107
KalilKareem

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Cyonan wrote...
The game is not balanced around speed running either, as evidenced by the fact that not all kits are built for pure DPS. If all you care about is the little number that says how long your game took then yes, damage is the most important thing in the game and there is no reason to ever use anything but the Geth Infiltrator. That is a personal choice however, not how the game was designed.


I rarely play infiltrators myself. That doesn't change the fact that they are best at beating this game. Evidenced by all speed runs being done with solely infiltrators. Considering that speed running is possible (and not even horribly difficult) who is "best" at slow running is kind of a moot point.


Cyonan wrote...
Since I consider Platinum a poor measure of balance


Why not silver? Or bronze? I also prefer to play on gold, but i firmly believe that all classes should be balanced to have the same (or at least roghly similar) worth on the games highest difficulty level.

#108
Bechter

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KalilKareem wrote...

Cyonan wrote...
The game is not balanced around speed running either, as evidenced by the fact that not all kits are built for pure DPS. If all you care about is the little number that says how long your game took then yes, damage is the most important thing in the game and there is no reason to ever use anything but the Geth Infiltrator. That is a personal choice however, not how the game was designed.


I rarely play infiltrators myself. That doesn't change the fact that they are best at beating this game. Evidenced by all speed runs being done with solely infiltrators. Considering that speed running is possible (and not even horribly difficult) who is "best" at slow running is kind of a moot point.


Cyonan wrote...
Since I consider Platinum a poor measure of balance


Why not silver? Or bronze? I also prefer to play on gold, but i firmly believe that all classes should be balanced to have the same (or at least roghly similar) worth on the games highest difficulty level.


Not all speedruns are done with infiltrators.

Platinum wasn't even designed when the majority of these kits were put together so If bioware decided to balance everything around platinum they would have to adjust the majority of kits. This is not going to happen and shouldn't.

#109
Zero132132

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blaaaaaaaaaarg wrote...

If I could find it, I'd post Dullahan's thread on this. Explains it pretty well.

Obviously, excessive nerfs and buffs get to me a lot (read: Krysae nerf [overkill], Vindicator nerf [pointless], Piranha/PD buffs [again, pointless], and I don't like either side of those. But balance is important, even in a co-op game.

Edit: Nevermind, found the thread. Read to you heart's content.

I read it a while ago. The main issue I'm questioning is the "still" aspect in the thread title. I'm saying that I Don't think there's a :police: that makes :ph34r: and :bandit: novelties rather than viable alternatives. Even if some classes are a bit weaker than others, there isn't anything that just makes it absolutely, completely pointless to use anything else.

#110
Cyonan

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KalilKareem wrote...
I rarely play infiltrators myself. That doesn't change the fact that they are best at beating this game. Evidenced by all speed runs being done with solely infiltrators. Considering that speed running is possible (and not even horribly difficult) who is "best" at slow running is kind of a moot point.


Going off the words "best at beating the game" then the box of shame is the best because it has the highest chance of success(or Kroguard/Geth). I believe the word you're looking for is that they're the most efficient =P

But that comes back to what I already said. If all you care about is that little number that says what your completion time was then yeah, DPS is king. Not everybody agrees that completion time is the most important part of the game, however.

I don't want to pretend like I speak for BioWare, but if they thought that then one would imagine they'd not have added kits like the Kroguard who's entire damage output is tied to his weapon but is incredibly durable, or the Volus who aren't designed to have GI levels of damage but have great support abilities.

KalilKareem wrote...
Why not silver? Or bronze? I also prefer to play on gold, but i firmly believe that all classes should be balanced to have the same (or at least roghly similar) worth on the games highest difficulty level.


Everything nukes Silver and Bronze so hard that it no longer matters. A lot of the Infiltrators begin to lose ground on these difficulties to anything with an AoE since that means it can nuke a spawn incredibly fast.

Platinum I say is a poor measure because it's a DPS race due to the very high concentration of boss mobs. To balance the game around Platinum means revamping every class in the game so that they're all DPS machines.

Gold is a high enough difficulty that not everything annihilates the enemy, and it's not heavily biased towards one specific style by nature.

#111
Tyeme Downs

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Zero132132 wrote...

This is getting off-track quickly. The point I was making is that the result of the current imbalances hasn't been homogenization of the playerbase, and nothing is so much better than anything else that using other stuff becomes a form of gimping yourself.

I still don't get the Infiltrator praise. They're the best at high single-target damage, and they are unambiguously the best for Platinum because of this, since there aren't really crowds to control, but they aren't the best at CC or group damage, at least in my opinion. You don't really NEED a huge damage output to kill anything but the bosses quickly, so I guess I don't think their high DPS matters outside of Platinum, since there'll be at most 2 bosses on the field on Gold and below.


Here's my reply:

I'm a good player at this game.  However, there are quite a few players so much better than myself that they can easily outscore me on a QFE while I'm playing an N7 Fury.  Put them on a TGI, N7 Fury or other powerful kit and they will make my efforts look pathetic.  This does not bother me in the least.  It does bother some people greatly when it happens to them.  Though futile, they will call for nerfs hoping to reach a point where player skill becomes a non-factor.

There are now quite a few really good kits out there that, when played well, can really tear up any faction on any map.  Some require more player skill to master than others.  Some people can only master one (or two) of these kits, and call for nerfs to the other kits to retain the superiority of the kit they have mastered.  Others want to buff the weaknesses in their favored kits to gain an even greater advantage.

There are kits that are weak enough that they are not viable on higher difficulties to good players.  They can be made to work for great or master players, but even in these hands they do not perform as well as most other kits out there.

In my opinion, none of the really great kits/weapons/gear/powers should be nerfed.  I believe there are still balance issues, but it's a matter of buffing/shoring up weakness in underperforming classes.  I believe that BW made some serious errors in bluring the lines between AoE damagers, single target DPS, crowd control, and point blank rangers vs ranged casters amoung the classes.

#112
Zero132132

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To follow Cyonan on Platinum and balance, if you balanced CC abilities to be able to do comparable damage to groups of bosses as the high single-target DPS of Infiltrators, you'd absolutely, completely wreck the game for all lower difficulties, because their damage output would be big enough that they'd be destroying entire spawns sans bosses in seconds. It'd make everything but Platinum an absolute roflstomp. It'd be incredibly stupid to do this just to balance things around the least-played difficulty.

#113
Blarg

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Zero132132 wrote...

I read it a while ago. The main issue I'm questioning is the "still" aspect in the thread title. I'm saying that I Don't think there's a :police: that makes :ph34r: and :bandit: novelties rather than viable alternatives. Even if some classes are a bit weaker than others, there isn't anything that just makes it absolutely, completely pointless to use anything else.


I think I'll have to agree. For the most part the game is fairly well balanced. Only a few things might be considered slightly OP (maybe the Harrier and Reegar, but they're definitely not Krysaes). Most changes that are needed are for underpowered things, like the Saboteur and ARs in general.

So yeah, nerfs aren't really needed at the moment. Buffs are. And to be fair, that's what BioWare's mostly been doing with the past few changes.

Modifié par blaaaaaaaaaarg, 19 février 2013 - 09:08 .


#114
Grunt_Platform

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A bit more on topic I'd like to throw another wrinkle into the conversation: I would totally support a Reegar nerf, but not because I think it's seriously overpowered. (I see people abusing it now and then, but it's hardly omnipresent. I easily outscore those guys with anything but my quirkier or underleveled kits).

Rather, the only times I actually use the Reegar, what I want from it is to strip shields and apply ammo effects against large numbers of enemies at a time. The Reegar is the only gun that does that. Unfortunately, by the time it's done the work, it's either killed everything, or it's empty its clip without hitting everything.

If the strategy I'm using depends on following the Reegar up with a detonator power, the fact that it killed everything it hit, and left everything else unharmed actually makes it less useful for me, and now I might as well just reload and kill the rest with the Reegar. That's boring. The Claymore is much more fun for that kind of play, and is better balanced for it.

If the Reegar did just enough damage to say.. strip the shields of 3 Centurions, and leave them writhing with Incendiary or Disruptor ammo applied, but not kill them, it would be a lot more fun to use. It would mesh better with some fun strategies, like Stikman's CC Broguard build. That this would also make the Kroguard+Reegar combo a bit less broken is just a bonus. As it is, it's actually harder to shoot a Centurion with the Reegar and leave him alive than it is to just kill him outright.

Modifié par EvanKester, 19 février 2013 - 09:40 .


#115
ValorOfArms777

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a few weapons atm are under the grade...and under the uniqueness chart

Krysae/Paladin/Striker are the three we can consider atm having some issues

#116
ValorOfArms777

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Cyonan wrote...

KalilKareem wrote...
I rarely play infiltrators myself. That doesn't change the fact that they are best at beating this game. Evidenced by all speed runs being done with solely infiltrators. Considering that speed running is possible (and not even horribly difficult) who is "best" at slow running is kind of a moot point.


Going off the words "best at beating the game" then the box of shame is the best because it has the highest chance of success(or Kroguard/Geth). I believe the word you're looking for is that they're the most efficient =P

But that comes back to what I already said. If all you care about is that little number that says what your completion time was then yeah, DPS is king. Not everybody agrees that completion time is the most important part of the game, however.

I don't want to pretend like I speak for BioWare, but if they thought that then one would imagine they'd not have added kits like the Kroguard who's entire damage output is tied to his weapon but is incredibly durable, or the Volus who aren't designed to have GI levels of damage but have great support abilities.

KalilKareem wrote...
Why not silver? Or bronze? I also prefer to play on gold, but i firmly believe that all classes should be balanced to have the same (or at least roghly similar) worth on the games highest difficulty level.


Everything nukes Silver and Bronze so hard that it no longer matters. A lot of the Infiltrators begin to lose ground on these difficulties to anything with an AoE since that means it can nuke a spawn incredibly fast.

Platinum I say is a poor measure because it's a DPS race due to the very high concentration of boss mobs. To balance the game around Platinum means revamping every class in the game so that they're all DPS machines.

Gold is a high enough difficulty that not everything annihilates the enemy, and it's not heavily biased towards one specific style by nature.


yet all things in the game are measured on "silver"

#117
oXTheReverendXo

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KalilKareem wrote...

Cyonan wrote...
The game is not balanced around speed running either, as evidenced by the fact that not all kits are built for pure DPS. If all you care about is the little number that says how long your game took then yes, damage is the most important thing in the game and there is no reason to ever use anything but the Geth Infiltrator. That is a personal choice however, not how the game was designed.


I rarely play infiltrators myself. That doesn't change the fact that they are best at beating this game. Evidenced by all speed runs being done with solely infiltrators. Considering that speed running is possible (and not even horribly difficult) who is "best" at slow running is kind of a moot point.


Most (but not all) speed runs are done with GI's and DI's, to be specific. But really, the DPS they produce is only one of the reasons they're used. It's the situational awareness and speed they offer that is most desireable, to be honest. That's why speedrunners spec Hunter Mode for Speed and Vision instead of damage. If DPS was the only goal, then that wouldn't be the case.

It's the rockets that make the speed run. Clean rocket waves are the key to a low time, supplemented by the ability to find stragglers quickly. 4 Geth Engineers could clear a speedrun with a very similar time to 4 GI's for this reason. The only thing they'd have a harder time with is the 4-target objective, which is usually done without rockets in a Platinum run.

#118
Cyonan

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ValorOfArms777 wrote...

yet all things in the game are measured on "silver"


If silver is the thing that the game is balanced around(I don't actually recall BioWare saying this, but multiple people have said this now so I probably missed it) then the Infiltrators are OP thing hardly matters anyway since anything with an AoE will nuke spawns faster than most Infiltrators =P

#119
oXTheReverendXo

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Cyonan wrote...

ValorOfArms777 wrote...

yet all things in the game are measured on "silver"


If silver is the thing that the game is balanced around(I don't actually recall BioWare saying this, but multiple people have said this now so I probably missed it) then the Infiltrators are OP thing hardly matters anyway since anything with an AoE will nuke spawns faster than most Infiltrators =P


Drell Adept FTW. :o

#120
Arctican

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Cyonan wrote...

ValorOfArms777 wrote...

yet all things in the game are measured on "silver"


If silver is the thing that the game is balanced around(I don't actually recall BioWare saying this, but multiple people have said this now so I probably missed it) then the Infiltrators are OP thing hardly matters anyway since anything with an AoE will nuke spawns faster than most Infiltrators =P


I don;t Bioware specficially said that, but I think they did say the majority of the games played are on Silver IIRC.

#121
Grunt_Platform

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BioWare has said they look at all difficulties when balancing things. The context of the comment about Bronze and Silver was that players were suggesting the game is or should be balanced around Gold difficulty (which means major buffs for several guns).

The reason this is relevant is because there are several guns and powers that do alright on Silver, but are grossly ineffective on Gold (Try Sentry Turret in a Silver game some time). Since the weapons perform well enough on those levels, they see decent usage.

Modifié par EvanKester, 19 février 2013 - 10:54 .


#122
holdenagincourt

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The same reason balance has always been a worthy goal. Many of the inequities in this game have persisted for months on end and are still here.

But while I want nerfs to some things (and buffs to many more things, as well as nerfs to some enemies), I don't hold out hope that the balance team will do much to adjust the fundamental issues. History is a good teacher in that regard.

#123
ParatrooperSean

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Cyonan wrote...

Everything nukes Silver and Bronze so hard that it no longer matters. A lot of the Infiltrators begin to lose ground on these difficulties to anything with an AoE since that means it can nuke a spawn incredibly fast.

Platinum I say is a poor measure because it's a DPS race due to the very high concentration of boss mobs. To balance the game around Platinum means revamping every class in the game so that they're all DPS machines.

Gold is a high enough difficulty that not everything annihilates the enemy, and it's not heavily biased towards one specific style by nature.


A very astute observation. I hadn't thought about that, but I actually agree. Any grenade class will rule on Bronze and Silver simply from AOE. High DPS kits will rule boss heavy Platinum.

So what then is the basis for something being "overpowered"? It's apparent that to Bioware it simply means a weapon, power or class that is overused.

Nothing in the game to date is powerful to the point of being game breaking, and that's all that should really matter. All the other crap arguments are just window dressing. "It's a nube tube! It requires no skill!" Well even if that's true who gives a flying f****? Give those other players 60 bucks to pay for their game, then you can dictate that they can only use "skill" weapons by your definition.

Nevertheless, Bioware will continue to give regular token buffs and nerfs just to give us something to talk about and look forward to.

#124
Hyperglide

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They want nerfs cause they just want a balanced game. If everything was buffed the game would be very unbalanced and to easy.

It depends on how many nerfs, what is getting nerfed and how much the nerfed item is penalized that is the problem.

#125
DSxCallOfBooty-

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 Because the game still isn't perfectly balanced.  I see no reason to stop suggesting improvements to the game.

Even if classes are only minorly underpowered in respect to others, wouldn't it be preferable if all of them were equally balanced?  If nerfs are required to do this, then so be it.

Granted, I'm more interested in buffs in the majority of cases, there are very few things that I would consider nerf-worthy, and the Reegar and Harrier aren't even among these.  (well, the Reegar could stand a very slight weakening, but not much)