458 réponses à ce sujet

[Eterna]

Dr_Extrem wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

but we still have the freedon to choose not to use this technology. dont try to insult me. this is a low blow. people learn by making mistakes - if you take away the possibility to make mistakes, you take away the a part of the learning process. trial and error.

this is not a dogma - it is the way we learn.


@ jtav

the quariens have those health problems, because they made a decision 300 years ago. we all have to pay the price for our decisions. its a part of growing up and learning.

we learn by blanketing ideas..interesting way to usurp others. Learning curves are too expensive when the fault lies in the making of the reality of any given system.

Learn the easy way or learn the hard way?

the quariens learned it the hard way (their own choice). synthesis however, eliminates the learning process. there is no learning - only knowledge

Because the Reapers know of everything in existence ever. They are the apex of technology and the organic races will never surpass them.

Except no. Technology will continue to advance past the Repers and organics and Synthetics will still need to figure it out. 

[Wayning_Star]

[quote]Dr_Extrem wrote...

[quote]Wayning_Star wrote...

but we still have the freedon to choose not to use this technology. dont try to insult me. this is a low blow. people learn by making mistakes - if you take away the possibility to make mistakes, you take away the a part of the learning process. trial and error.

this is not a dogma - it is the way we learn.


@ jtav

the quariens have those health problems, because they made a decision 300 years ago. we all have to pay the price for our decisions. its a part of growing up and learning. [/quote]

we learn by blanketing ideas..interesting way to usurp others. Learning curves are too expensive when the fault lies in the making of the reality of any given system.

Learn the easy way or learn the hard way? [/quote]


the quariens learned it the hard way (their own choice). synthesis however, eliminates the learning process. there is no learning - only knowledge[/quote]

Why think if you already know the answers? Is that your quandry?  Space is pretty big, I doubt we learn all in an instant. Eventhough we, hard as we might, try. Why learn? Why bother? Why stop learning?

conundrum of existence, how to 'live' and be 'happy' with what we know as being 'true'. Now, to get all parties to agree on what that might be is the next trial,eh?

Society is based on the combination of qualities, what qualities are similar to synthesis?

[BleedingUranium]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

If I take Mordin completely literally, then EDI and the geth are not alive. I believe that they are.

I don't recall him saying that, but regardless, that's not relevant here.

The "replaced with tech" argument suggests that synthetics are not alive because they are nothing but tech.

That's definitely not what I got out of that. A major lesson in Mass Effect is the organic life is life, synthetic life is life, but combinations of the two are always horrible monsters.

And before anyone can say "Shepard", Shepard is considered fully organic in the MEU, as his brain does not have any tech.

[ruggly]

CronoDragoon wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

The "replaced with tech" argument suggests that synthetics are not alive because they are nothing but tech.

I don't think so. I think Mordin was making an abstract statement that what previously had defined the Protheans - culture, for example - had become lost in the process of converting them into the Collectors, tangibly represented by technology.

This.  The prothean/collector thralls were slowly starting to fail over many cloned generations.  So in order to keep it up, they had to replace vital organs and whatnot with tech to keep them around.  I'm not sure that he's saying that synthetics are not alive.

[CosmicGnosis]

CronoDragoon wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

The "replaced with tech" argument suggests that synthetics are not alive because they are nothing but tech.

I don't think so. I think Mordin was making an abstract statement that what previously had defined the Protheans - culture, for example - had become lost in the process of converting them into the Collectors, tangibly represented by technology.

And people believe that Synthesis is the same thing, despite all the evidence we have that suggests that it isn't. Look, I get that the Collectors are mindless Reaper slaves. But Synthesis is different. And I realize that most people won't accept what I just said. In fact, I wonder why I keep engaging in these debates when no one ever changes their minds. Granted, I have, at various times, selected each of the three endings as my canon. At this time, I don't have one.

[BleedingUranium]

Ieldra2 wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

jtav wrote...
Mordin is wrong. The dogma he is presenting is wrong.

So our allies are wrong and the Reapers are right?

Oh god, not this again.

The merit of an idea is independent from the identity, morality or affiliation of those who support it.

Not in fiction it isn't.

[ruggly]

CosmicGnosis wrote...
And people believe that Synthesis is the same thing, despite all the evidence we have that suggests that it isn't. Look, I get that the Collectors are mindless Reaper slaves. But Synthesis is different. And I realize that most people won't accept what I just said. In fact, I wonder why I keep engaging in these debates when no one ever changes their minds. Granted, I have, at various times, selected each of the three endings as my canon. At this time, I don't have one.

I may be pro-destroy, but I can see why people do choose synthesis.  For me, there's just so many horrible things in the way that it's presented that I can't swallow it.  I feel bad about EDI and the Geth, but synthesis managed to make me feel worse.

[CosmicGnosis]

BleedingUranium wrote...

That's definitely not what I got out of that. A major lesson in Mass Effect is the organic life is life, synthetic life is life, but combinations of the two are always horrible monsters.

And before anyone can say "Shepard", Shepard is considered fully organic in the MEU, as his brain does not have any tech.

And I completely reject that belief. It's so ridiculous.

[Wayning_Star]

reality is fiction arguement always wins!!

yay

[clennon8]

BleedingUranium wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

jtav wrote...
Mordin is wrong. The dogma he is presenting is wrong.

So our allies are wrong and the Reapers are right?

Oh god, not this again.

The merit of an idea is independent from the identity, morality or affiliation of those who support it.

Not in fiction it isn't.

Exactly.  We're talking about a story here.  You can't divorce the idea from the context.  Everything in a story has a purpose.  That isn't to say a good story can't surprise the reader by subverting a theme, but it needs to make sense in retrospect, within the context of the story.

Modifié par clennon8, 20 février 2013 - 06:07 .

[Wayning_Star]

ruggly wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...
And people believe that Synthesis is the same thing, despite all the evidence we have that suggests that it isn't. Look, I get that the Collectors are mindless Reaper slaves. But Synthesis is different. And I realize that most people won't accept what I just said. In fact, I wonder why I keep engaging in these debates when no one ever changes their minds. Granted, I have, at various times, selected each of the three endings as my canon. At this time, I don't have one.

I may be pro-destroy, but I can see why people do choose synthesis.  For me, there's just so many horrible things in the way that it's presented that I can't swallow it.  I feel bad about EDI and the Geth, but synthesis managed to make me feel worse.

imagine how Edi and the Geth feel, then consider Mordin and his genophage problematics..

build and destroy= chaos

[BleedingUranium]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

That's definitely not what I got out of that. A major lesson in Mass Effect is the organic life is life, synthetic life is life, but combinations of the two are always horrible monsters.

And before anyone can say "Shepard", Shepard is considered fully organic in the MEU, as his brain does not have any tech.

And I completely reject that belief. It's so ridiculous.

It's a core theme in the MEU, you don't have to like it. It's as true as that magic exists in the Middle Earth universe.

[Wayning_Star]

.[/quote]

Not in fiction it isn't.
[/quote]
Exactly.  We're talking about a story here.  You can't divorce the idea from the context.  Everything in a story has a purpose.  That isn't to say a good story can't surprise the reader by subverting a theme, but it needs to make sense in retrospect, within the context of the story.[/quote]

happens all the time, ever read a newspaper?

[Wayning_Star]

BleedingUranium wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

That's definitely not what I got out of that. A major lesson in Mass Effect is the organic life is life, synthetic life is life, but combinations of the two are always horrible monsters.

And before anyone can say "Shepard", Shepard is considered fully organic in the MEU, as his brain does not have any tech.

And I completely reject that belief. It's so ridiculous.

It's a core theme in the MEU, you don't have to like it. It's as true as that magic exists in the Middle Earth universe.

metagaming isn't ingame reality, mixing the two alters the story, makes it 'attempt' to mimmic a world view. The 'core' of the story isn't destroy, it only starts out that way, goes that way then the 'actual' reality in the story unfolds. Many who dun'its do that. In this case the butler is one bad sob...

[Ieldra]

BleedingUranium wrote...

That's definitely not what I got out of that. A major lesson in Mass Effect is the organic life is life, synthetic life is life, but combinations of the two are always horrible monsters.

And before anyone can say "Shepard", Shepard is considered fully organic in the MEU, as his brain does not have any tech.

No he isn't. Shepard's been recreated with "biosynthetic fusion" (ME2 Lazarus logs). The Catalyst says "even you are partly synthetic. EDI says Shepard is fully human, not fully organic. Besides, EDI's line is an arbitrary redefinition of "transhuman".

Also, biotics. Oh, and greyboxes. Yep, upgraded brains. A memory upgrade is as close as you can get to being considered biosynthetic by any definition. So yeah, I'm sure Keiji Okuda was a horrible monster.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 20 février 2013 - 06:14 .

[clennon8]

I'm not sure that I buy into the notion that a largely beneficial form of transhumanism along the lines of what Ieldra envisions is necessarily verboten within the MEU. I just don't trust that transhumanistic ideal to be delivered by a brainwashing mass murderer. Plain and simple. Let's not lose sight of that.

Modifié par clennon8, 20 février 2013 - 06:16 .

[GethPrimeMKII]

Wayning. Just stop. You're trying to sound deep and intelligent, but you're failing miserably at it.

[jtav]

The writers of the MEU are kindly giving me the opportunity to tell me what I think of that core theme. I took them up on it.

[Wayning_Star]

the header for this thread is an eye opener, the only problem with it, is what is seen and why..bummer

[Wayning_Star]

GethPrimeMKII wrote...

Wayning. Just stop. You're trying to sound deep and intelligent, but you're failing miserably at it.

Like Shep, I'm immune to indoctrination, so can it buddy.

[Wayning_Star]

clennon8 wrote...

I'm not sure that I buy into the notion that a largely beneficial form of transhumanism along the lines of what Ieldra envisions is necessarily verboten within the MEU. I just don't trust that transhumanistic ideal to be delivered by a brainwashing mass murderer. Plain and simple. Let's not lose sight of that.

Who,exactly, is this brainwashing mass murderer, we should arrest and charge them!!

(trick question, by the way)

[BleedingUranium]

clennon8 wrote...

I'm not sure that I buy into the notion that a largely beneficial form of transhumanism along the lines of what Ieldra envisions is necessarily verboten within the MEU. I just don't trust that transhumanistic ideal to be delivered by a brainwashing mass murderer. Plain and simple. Let's not lose sight of that.

Very true.

[Dr_Extrem]

Wayning_Star wrote...

clennon8 wrote...

I'm not sure that I buy into the notion that a largely beneficial form of transhumanism along the lines of what Ieldra envisions is necessarily verboten within the MEU. I just don't trust that transhumanistic ideal to be delivered by a brainwashing mass murderer. Plain and simple. Let's not lose sight of that.

Who,exactly, is this brainwashing mass murderer, we should arrest and charge them!!

(trick question, by the way)

well . just because it looks like a boy ...

[clennon8]

I'm also not a big believer that the solution to love and understanding between organics and synthetics should come from a magical macguffin transmogrification machine.

[CronoDragoon]

BleedingUranium wrote...
That's definitely not what I got out of that. A major lesson in Mass Effect is the organic life is life, synthetic life is life, but combinations of the two are always horrible monsters.

And before anyone can say "Shepard", Shepard is considered fully organic in the MEU, as his brain does not have any tech.

Human biotics do have tech in their brain, so your attempt at qualification still doesn't work. Mass Effect 3 defines Shepard as part-organic part-synthetic, and so he, and every human biotic, remain counterpoints to your statement.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 20 février 2013 - 06:22 .