458 réponses à ce sujet

[jijeebo]

I'm still choosing Control, sorry.

I don't mind Destroy, but I just don't see it as the only way to end the reaper threat.

[dorktainian]

Enhanced wrote...

I most the OP is true, except this...

ElSuperGecko wrote...

  Now, you can empathise with the Catalyst if you want, you can listen to it's (inhuman) arguments, accept it's (disingenuous) assertations and agree with it's (flawed) logic if you wish, but TWO MINUTES of nonsensical platitudes and vague assurances are not enough to convince me that everything we know about the Reapers is a lie.

 The existence of the Crucible itself and the Leviathans prove that's it logic isn't flawed, the inevitable synthetic/organic conflicts are a real concern. Even, under the Leviathan's influence, civlizations were always eventually wiped out by their owned. Whoever designed the Crucible recognized this also. 
 
So, here's another reminder: They are a solution to the problem. Destroying them doesn't make the problem go away.

WHAT??

they are a solution?  dear god man listen to yourself. they are the problem.

[spotlessvoid]

I think the moral of the story is if you give people choices they'll often make the wrong one. Which is why choosing control and forcing your opinion on the galaxy, or choosing synthesis so every one shares the same opinion, are clearly better options than destroy. The galaxy cannot be allowed to make it's own fate or it will inevitably doom itself. The galaxy cannot survive without the Reapers.

[dorktainian]

spotlessvoid wrote...

I think the moral of the story is if you give people choices they'll often make the wrong one. Which is why choosing control and forcing your opinion on the galaxy, or choosing synthesis so every one shares the same opinion, are clearly better options than destroy. The galaxy cannot be allowed to make it's own fate or it will inevitably doom itself. The galaxy cannot survive without the Reapers.

do you know what..you are right.

[jijeebo]

spotlessvoid wrote...

I think the moral of the story is if you give people choices they'll often make the wrong one. Which is why choosing control and forcing your opinion on the galaxy, or choosing synthesis so every one shares the same opinion, are clearly better options than destroy. The galaxy cannot be allowed to make it's own fate or it will inevitably doom itself. The galaxy cannot survive without the Reapers.

 
None of them are wrong, they're just different. They all end the reaper threat and they all end the game on a good note, it's just personal preference and stuff.

[ElSuperGecko]

spotlessvoid wrote...

I think the moral of the story is if you give people choices they'll often make the wrong one. Which is why choosing control and forcing your opinion on the galaxy, or choosing synthesis so every one shares the same opinion, are clearly better options than destroy. The galaxy cannot be allowed to make it's own fate or it will inevitably doom itself. The galaxy cannot survive without the Reapers.

You either die a hero, or live long enough to see yourself become the villain.

[clennon8]

jtav wrote...

I'm not overlooking what they did. But 1) the game plants enough doubt as to their free will that I prefer to err on the side of caution and 2) I have strong feelings about when war and capital punishment are permitted. And they're permitted if and only if there's no other way to protect others. You may argue that there isn't and I see the logic. But the ideal is no casualties, even Reapers.

Showing absolute faith in the Reaper Overlord and committing suicide at his behest does not seem like "erring on the side of caution."

[ElSuperGecko]

Enhanced wrote...
The existence of the Crucible itself and the Leviathan's info prove that's the Catalyst's logic isn't flawed, the inevitable synthetic/organic conflicts are a real concern. Even, under the Leviathan's influence, civlizations were always eventually wiped out by their own creations. Whoever designed the Crucible recognized this also.

Whoever designed the Crucible recognised that civilisations were always eventually wiped out by the Reapers.

Synthesis has very little to do with the Crucible and the intentions of it's designers, and everything to do with the Catalyst and it's intentions.
 

So, here's another reminder: They are a solution to the problem. Destroying them doesn't make the problem go away.

Nice try, but no.  The Reapers are a solution to the Catalyst's problem.  Not our problem.  Our problem is the Reapers - and destroying them is the only way to make them go away.

Modifié par ElSuperGecko, 19 février 2013 - 06:51 .

[Sky651]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

...because some people appear to forget in the last five minutes.

If anyone's stuck in the "Us vs Them" mentality, it's the Reapers themselves.  When have they ever shown any care for anything other than their own designs?

Time and time again they've told us we are insignificant, our actions meaningless and futile, that we are nothing but insects before them, that our destruction is necessary and inevitable.

They've proven to be remorseless, emotionless, brutal, relentless. They've butched billions of innocent living beings, exterminated thousands of races and wiped out countless civilisations over the course of millenia.

DO NOT FORGET THIS FACT.

The REAPERS are the aggressors. The REAPERS are the ones who refuse to negotiate. The REAPERS are the ones who perpetrate the cycle of extinction and unless they are removed from the equation, they will inevitably be the ones who end it.

Only when their backs are truly to the wall do they become willing to talk.  But even then, they try to twist us to fulfilling their own goals.  To making their purpose our own.  Now, you can empathise with the Catalyst if you want, you can listen to it's (inhuman) arguments, accept it's (disingenuous) assertations and agree with it's (flawed) logic if you wish, but TWO MINUTES of nonsensical platitudes and vague assurances are not enough to convince me that everything we know about the Reapers is a lie.

The Reapers have told us from day one: "YOUR DESTRUCTION IS INEVITABLE"

They kill indiscriminately - soldier, civilian, man, woman, child, baby. They care nothing for anything but their own motives, their own goals. And they are clever enough and manipulative enough to persuade people to trust them, to accept them, to believe in them. Just like you're doing right now.

They turn organic races against each other, and that's why they have always - ALWAYS - won.

We can't trust them. We can't allow them to influence us. We can't let them sway our resolve.

We FIGHT. Or we DIE.

By their very nature, they've given us no other choice.

We FIGHT or we DIE !!

<-- Shoots tube --->

[ElSuperGecko]

jtav wrote...
...but the ideal is no casualties, even Reapers.

It's a shame that the Catalyst and the Reapers themselves don't share that blind, hopeful optimism.  If they did we wouldn't be fighting this war in the first place.

[clennon8]

Yeah, see, that's the trick. Up until the last 5 minutes of the game, our problem was getting rid of the giant space chthulus that are exterminating galactic civilizations. Then, in the last 5 minutes, the space chthulu jefe manages to shift the focus from solving YOUR problem to solving HIS social studies assignment.  It's a grand trick.

Modifié par clennon8, 19 février 2013 - 06:57 .

[GethPrimeMKII]

FlyinElk212 wrote...

ElSuperGecko wrote...

The REAPERS are the aggressors.

Incorrect. The aggressors are ourselves, specifically organic life creating synthetic life which in all past cycles has created some form of conflict. The Reapers act aggressively against the galaxy's own aggression.

The REAPERS are the ones who refuse to negotiate.

They just negotiated with us in the final scene with the Starchild.

The REAPERS are the ones who perpetrate the cycle of extinction and unless they are removed from the equation, they will inevitably be the ones who end it.

So...

We want to end the cycle of extinction, so we won't end the cycle of extinction with the Reapers because we want to end the cycle of extinction??

BTW, huge supporter of destroy. Just these tidbits didn't really make much sense to me.

Your argument reminds me of an event EDI mentioned happening all over earth. The reapers extending an offer to world leaders to enter their superstuctures and negotiate peace. Its obvious to any outside observer that this is a trap meant to indoctrinate these leaders. The leaders would soon set laws prohibiting all aggressive actions against the reapers.

That's all the proof you need that any offer made by reapers to negotiate is a trap. The reapers are cunning in ther deception. Allowing you to think you can broker a peace aggrement with monsters who take pleasure in erraticating life. 

[jtav]

clennon8 wrote...

jtav wrote...

I'm not overlooking what they did. But 1) the game plants enough doubt as to their free will that I prefer to err on the side of caution and 2) I have strong feelings about when war and capital punishment are permitted. And they're permitted if and only if there's no other way to protect others. You may argue that there isn't and I see the logic. But the ideal is no casualties, even Reapers.

Showing absolute faith in the Reaper Overlord and committing suicide at his behest does not seem like "erring on the side of caution."

Metagming, I know all three are intended to be valid options (and spare me IT) despite the poor writing and treat them as such.

[ElSuperGecko]

clennon8 wrote...
Yeah, see, that's the trick. Up until the last 5 minutes of the game, our problem was getting rid of the giant space chthulus that are exterminating galactic civilizations. Then, in the last 5 minutes, the space chthulu jefe manages to shift the focus from solving YOUR problem to solving HIS social studies assignment.

Agreed.  As far as misdirection goes, it's a little obvious, but hey it seems to have worked a treat!  

[Liamv2]

pirate1802 wrote...

Thanks for the reminder. Still not picking destroy..

Modifié par Liamv2, 19 février 2013 - 06:59 .

[dorktainian]

lets all surrender then the reapers may lay down their weapons......

[clennon8]

jtav wrote...

clennon8 wrote...

jtav wrote...

I'm not overlooking what they did. But 1) the game plants enough doubt as to their free will that I prefer to err on the side of caution and 2) I have strong feelings about when war and capital punishment are permitted. And they're permitted if and only if there's no other way to protect others. You may argue that there isn't and I see the logic. But the ideal is no casualties, even Reapers.

Showing absolute faith in the Reaper Overlord and committing suicide at his behest does not seem like "erring on the side of caution."

Metagming, I know all three are intended to be valid options (and spare me IT) despite the poor writing and treat them as such.

Poor writing, indeed.  The poorest I've ever seen Bioware commit, if you are correct.

I must say, however, that I admire that you've abandoned all pretext of discussing this on a literary level.

Modifié par clennon8, 19 février 2013 - 07:16 .

[Enhanced]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

Enhanced wrote...
The existence of the Crucible itself and the Leviathan's info prove that's the Catalyst's logic isn't flawed, the inevitable synthetic/organic conflicts are a real concern. Even, under the Leviathan's influence, civlizations were always eventually wiped out by their own creations. Whoever designed the Crucible recognized this also.

Whoever designed the Crucible recognised that civilisations were always eventually wiped out by the Reapers.

Synthesis has very little to do with the Crucible and the intentions of it's designers, and everything to do with the Catalyst and it's intentions.

Not true. If it were, the Crucible wouldn't have 3 options, certainly not one that destroys the reapers.
 

Modifié par Enhanced, 19 février 2013 - 07:09 .

[DeinonSlayer]

Sky651 wrote...

ElSuperGecko wrote...

...because some people appear to forget in the last five minutes.

If anyone's stuck in the "Us vs Them" mentality, it's the Reapers themselves. When have they ever shown any care for anything other than their own designs?

Time and time again they've told us we are insignificant, our actions meaningless and futile, that we are nothing but insects before them, that our destruction is necessary and inevitable.

They've proven to be remorseless, emotionless, brutal, relentless. They've butched billions of innocent living beings, exterminated thousands of races and wiped out countless civilisations over the course of millenia.

DO NOT FORGET THIS FACT.

The REAPERS are the aggressors. The REAPERS are the ones who refuse to negotiate. The REAPERS are the ones who perpetrate the cycle of extinction and unless they are removed from the equation, they will inevitably be the ones who end it.

Only when their backs are truly to the wall do they become willing to talk. But even then, they try to twist us to fulfilling their own goals. To making their purpose our own. Now, you can empathise with the Catalyst if you want, you can listen to it's (inhuman) arguments, accept it's (disingenuous) assertations and agree with it's (flawed) logic if you wish, but TWO MINUTES of nonsensical platitudes and vague assurances are not enough to convince me that everything we know about the Reapers is a lie.

The Reapers have told us from day one: "YOUR DESTRUCTION IS INEVITABLE"

They kill indiscriminately - soldier, civilian, man, woman, child, baby. They care nothing for anything but their own motives, their own goals. And they are clever enough and manipulative enough to persuade people to trust them, to accept them, to believe in them. Just like you're doing right now.

They turn organic races against each other, and that's why they have always - ALWAYS - won.

We can't trust them. We can't allow them to influence us. We can't let them sway our resolve.

We FIGHT. Or we DIE.

By their very nature, they've given us no other choice.

We FIGHT or we DIE !!

<-- Shoots tube --->

Derp our derbs!

<-- Shoots tube --->

[ElSuperGecko]

Enhanced wrote...
Not true. If it were, the Crucible wouldn't have 3 options, certainly not one that destroys the reapers. 

Wrong.  Look again.  The creators and designers of the Crucible aren't the ones who  present us with Synthesis as a solution.

The Catalyst does.  ("It has changed me - opened up new possibilities")  The creator and controller of the Reapers is the one that presents us with Synthesis as a solution.   It is harnessing and using the Crucible (remind me - what does it call it again?  "A giant power source"?) to fulfil it's own purpose and it's own goals.

Destroy is a solution is intended by the creators and designers of the Crucible.  Even Control may be, considering what we learn about the Prothean version and from TIM.  But Synthesis is the Catalyst's solution, the Catalyst's creation, and the Catalyst's alone.

[Pelle6666]

Well, I happen to agree but this has been said over and over for a year now, just let people choose what ever they want. It's not like it influence your playthrough if some one else prefers synthesis.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Liamv2 wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...

Thanks for the reminder. Still not picking destroy..

Awesome sig. Warning: I'm stealing it. 

[Auld Wulf]

Ooh, more defensive genocide apologism. Just what this forum needs.

I've made this point before: If you really wanted to get rid of the reapers, then the answer is simple. You'd pick Control, free the various species from the reaper consensus, and then destroy the reaper ships. Destroy is basically just Control + Genocide.

[clennon8]

Pelle6666 wrote...

Well, I happen to agree but this has been said over and over for a year now, just let people choose what ever they want. It's not like it influence your playthrough if some one else prefers synthesis.

Variations of this conversation comprise 90% of activity on this forum.

[Auld Wulf]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

Wrong. Look again. [Blah de blah blah.]

The headcanon is strong with this one. So many claims which are not at all substantiated by the game. So now we have headcanon offered as an excuse for pointless genocide. Hooray...

Sigh.