458 réponses à ce sujet

[dorktainian]

ok.

so you pick destroy. you decide to use the crudible to destroy the reapers. and then right at the end you wake up.

can anyone who picked control or synthebodge explain how their choice can be better when the only choice where shepard 'lives' is destroy? confirmed to be the best ending by bioware themselves.

for me it boils down to myself as an individual.

when i am presented with the choice, there is only one choice.



ok heres a question.

the sr2 goes through the omega 4 relay, after fighting countless bad guys the ship is disabled and cornered by collector forces. power off line the collectors approach. you know you will be killed. you look around at your collegues who are in pieces with the realisation they are all going to die.

as the collector ship approaches it powers up its weaponry. time appears to stand still.

then you notice the thannix canon has come on line and can be used.

do you....

a. use the gun and blow them to hell?
b. surrender and hope they will be merciful?
c. kill yourself?

[Cobalt2113]

dorktainian wrote...

ok.

so you pick destroy. you decide to use the crudible to destroy the reapers. and then right at the end you wake up.

can anyone who picked control or synthebodge explain how their choice can be better when the only choice where shepard 'lives' is destroy? confirmed to be the best ending by bioware themselves.

for me it boils down to myself as an individual.

when i am presented with the choice, there is only one choice.

Perhaps they're actually thinking about what might be best for the trllions of people in the galaxy. And not just what is best for themselves? For me whether Shepard lives or not is the smallest of considerations when comparing the endings. It seems like an incredibly greedy and selfish viewpoint.

Modifié par Cobalt2113, 20 février 2013 - 06:41 .

[DirtyPhoenix]

dorktainian wrote...

ok.

so you pick destroy. you decide to use the crudible to destroy the reapers. and then right at the end you wake up.

can anyone who picked control or synthebodge explain how their choice can be better when the only choice where shepard 'lives' is destroy? confirmed to be the best ending by bioware themselves.

I can never explain why control or synthesis is "better" that destroy. Because they aren't. And I never considered then better anyway. It depends on your individual perspective. There's no better or the only right choice, for me atleast.

Oh and btw. Whether Shep survives or not doesnt even enter my equation. Had I wanted Shep to survive obviously I'd pick red everytime.

for me it boils down to myself as an individual.

Same for me.

ok heres a question.

the sr2 goes through the omega 4 relay, after fighting countless bad guys the ship is disabled and cornered by collector forces. power off line the collectors approach. you know you will be killed. you look around at your collegues who are in pieces with the realisation they are all going to die.

as the collector ship approaches it powers up its weaponry. time appears to stand still.

then you notice the thannix canon has come on line and can be used.

do you....

a. use the gun and blow them to hell?
b. surrender and hope they will be merciful?
c. kill yourself?

Well when you phrase it that way, ofcourse the answer is 1. The same trick can be used to justify any ending, so no big deal. But To further the analogy: You discover that collector ship contains thousands of human slaves that'll die if you blow it to hell. Then you discover, by some ridiculously contrived way, that EDI can take control of the collector ship and can turn it into her plaything. Forgive me if I don't blow the ship and many innocents to hell.

Modifié par pirate1802, 20 février 2013 - 07:58 .

[xAmilli0n]

dorktainian wrote...

can anyone who picked control or synthebodge explain how their choice can be better when the only choice where shepard 'lives' is destroy? confirmed to be the best ending by bioware themselves.

Ah, okay, so destory is the best ending because Shep lives.  Thanks for clearing that up.  We can all go home now.

[DirtyPhoenix]

xAmilli0n wrote...

dorktainian wrote...

can anyone who picked control or synthebodge explain how their choice can be better when the only choice where shepard 'lives' is destroy? confirmed to be the best ending by bioware themselves.

Ah, okay, so destory is the best ending because Shep lives.  Thanks for clearing that up.  We can all go home now.

Bioware comfirmed destroy as the best ending? Where when how.. Must see..

[ElSuperGecko]

chris2365 wrote...
Don't forget that a Reaper is composed of millions of minds and voices working in unison. Quadrillions of potential men, woman, children, etc. Don't they deserve a chance to speak before condemning them to because of what they were before, or the way they might be like in the future?  Would you condemn a whole species based on what might happen (Geth, Rachni, etc.) ?

Where in the world did you pull this fallacy from?  No wonder people fall so willingly and completely for the Catalyst's line of tripe when this kind of spurious self-serving headcanon is toted around as fact.

The Reapers are not ruled by consensus by the minds of the races they were built from.  Those races are dead, dead and gone.  They were murdered by the Reapers.

Do you need me to remind you how the Reapers are created?

Do you need me to remind you what happened to the Protheans?

Do you need me to show you how much of the Protheans the Reapers "preserved"?

[dorktainian]

pirate1802 wrote...

You discover that collector ship contains thousands of human slaves that'll die if you blow it to hell. Then you discover, by some ridiculously contrived way, that EDI can take control of the collector ship and can turn it into her plaything. Forgive me if I don't blow the ship and many innocents to hell.

Taking control of the collector ship is not an option.  They have you in a corner.  

but they have powered up their weapons and will kill you.  You still pause and consider?    
There is no negotiating with them.  They will kill you when they get the chance.

As we have seen, the humans will be murdered - pulped into reaper slusho.

Even if they havent been mushed yet, the collectors are going to tare you a new one and you are worried about potential fatalities on the collector vessel?          

You are forced into a corner.  3 options are still available.

Use the thannix canon.
Surrender and hope for mercy
kill yourself.

They will not show you any mercy.  Ever.

[KennyAshes]

dorktainian wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...

You discover that collector ship contains thousands of human slaves that'll die if you blow it to hell. Then you discover, by some ridiculously contrived way, that EDI can take control of the collector ship and can turn it into her plaything. Forgive me if I don't blow the ship and many innocents to hell.

Taking control of the collector ship is not an option.  They have you in a corner.  

but they have powered up their weapons and will kill you.  You still pause and consider?    
There is no negotiating with them.  They will kill you when they get the chance.

As we have seen, the humans will be murdered - pulped into reaper slusho.

Even if they havent been mushed yet, the collectors are going to tare you a new one and you are worried about potential fatalities on the collector vessel?          

You are forced into a corner.  3 options are still available.

Use the thannix canon.
Surrender and hope for mercy
kill yourself.

They will not show you any mercy.  Ever.

And even  then... we came to be what we are because of our instinct of selfpreservation. Especially if that person next to you is a stranger your first reaction is always ,'shoot him! not me!', unless its someone very close to your heart.

You can kick your saloontable with your toe while i lose my leg. At that moment you kicking that table you will feel worse about that toe than about me losing my leg.

[cyrslash1974]

pirate1802 wrote...

xAmilli0n wrote...

dorktainian wrote...

can anyone who picked control or synthebodge explain how their choice can be better when the only choice where shepard 'lives' is destroy? confirmed to be the best ending by bioware themselves.

Ah, okay, so destory is the best ending because Shep lives.  Thanks for clearing that up.  We can all go home now.

Bioware comfirmed destroy as the best ending? Where when how.. Must see..

Not sure. Mike Gamble had mentionned via twitter few months ago that "he doesn't think that destroy is the best solution", something like that.

So, I assume that Synthesis is the best solution for Bioware.

But... I don't care. I pick Destroy !!!!!

[Dr_Extrem]

cyrslash1974 wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...

xAmilli0n wrote...

dorktainian wrote...

can anyone who picked control or synthebodge explain how their choice can be better when the only choice where shepard 'lives' is destroy? confirmed to be the best ending by bioware themselves.

Ah, okay, so destory is the best ending because Shep lives.  Thanks for clearing that up.  We can all go home now.

Bioware comfirmed destroy as the best ending? Where when how.. Must see..

Not sure. Mike Gamble had mentionned via twitter few months ago that "he doesn't think that destroy is the best solution", something like that.

So, I assume that Synthesis is the best solution for Bioware.

But... I don't care. I pick Destroy !!!!!

there is no "best solution" ... its the choice between pest, cholera and typhus.

[cyrslash1974]

Dr_Extrem wrote...

cyrslash1974 wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...

xAmilli0n wrote...

dorktainian wrote...

can anyone who picked control or synthebodge explain how their choice can be better when the only choice where shepard 'lives' is destroy? confirmed to be the best ending by bioware themselves.

Ah, okay, so destory is the best ending because Shep lives.  Thanks for clearing that up.  We can all go home now.

Bioware comfirmed destroy as the best ending? Where when how.. Must see..

Not sure. Mike Gamble had mentionned via twitter few months ago that "he doesn't think that destroy is the best solution", something like that.

So, I assume that Synthesis is the best solution for Bioware.

But... I don't care. I pick Destroy !!!!!

there is no "best solution" ... its the choice between pest, cholera and typhus.

Fully agreed.

[ElSuperGecko]

Dr_Extrem wrote...
there is no "best solution" ... its the choice between pest, cholera and typhus.

I agree with this statement.  All three choices are dubious for one reason or another, which is why I find it best to take the pragmatic approach.  Hence the reminder.

However, the Catalyst seems to believe there is a best solution - a "perfect solution" even - and it attempts to persuade you to enact it's own ideas and wishes.

I'm more inclined to trust Garrus than the creator of the Reapers, however.

"Nothing good ever came from Reaper tech"

[Dr_Extrem]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...
there is no "best solution" ... its the choice between pest, cholera and typhus.

"Nothing good ever came from Reaper tech"

i would never argue this statement.

[ElSuperGecko]

Dr_Extrem wrote...
i would never argue this statement.

It's an interesting line from Garrus, because one could point to EDI, or even the Thanix Cannons he so loves calibrating.

But I think the underlying sentiment bears such scrutiny.

[Dr_Extrem]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...
i would never argue this statement.

It's an interesting line from Garrus, because one could point to EDI, or even the Thanix Cannons he so loves calibrating.

But I think the underlying sentiment bears such scrutiny.

mhmm .. never thought of that ...

but in my books, edi was edi before she was retconed in me3 with reaper tech (originally, only her advanced counter viruses and cyberwarfare suits were based on reaper tech) and the thanix cannon is merelya particle-stream gun, that uses mass effect fields.

[DirtyPhoenix]

dorktainian wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...

You discover that collector ship contains thousands of human slaves that'll die if you blow it to hell. Then you discover, by some ridiculously contrived way, that EDI can take control of the collector ship and can turn it into her plaything. Forgive me if I don't blow the ship and many innocents to hell.

Taking control of the collector ship is not an option.  They have you in a corner.  

but they have powered up their weapons and will kill you.  You still pause and consider?    
There is no negotiating with them.  They will kill you when they get the chance.

As we have seen, the humans will be murdered - pulped into reaper slusho.

Even if they havent been mushed yet, the collectors are going to tare you a new one and you are worried about potential fatalities on the collector vessel?          

You are forced into a corner.  3 options are still available.

Use the thannix canon.
Surrender and hope for mercy
kill yourself.

They will not show you any mercy.  Ever.

Then it's not a good analogy to the endgame, sorry. Like I said, yours is a loaded situation. Similar inaccurate scenarios can be made to support other endings. In the end, if there's not a severe collateral damage for destroy then its not an accurate analogy. sorry. No matter how you put it.

Btw, I was worried about allied casualties on the collector sip, incase you missed that.

Modifié par pirate1802, 20 février 2013 - 02:35 .

[Davik Kang]

 I was gonna make a similar thread as a joke, yet look at how serious things are in here!

ElSuperGecko wrote...

Do you need me to remind you how the Reapers are created?

Do you need me to remind you what happened to the Protheans?

Do you need me to show you how much of the Protheans the Reapers "preserved"?

The sad thing is, yes, seemingly people that played through the entire trilogy need reminding of this stuff on a daily basis.

So the Reapers are misunderstood, and just trying to resolve an inevitable conflict.  And you base this on... one conversation with the Reaper leader.

Did you guys understand why the Geth war happened?  Quarians became afraid of their creations and tried to kill them.  They tried to control the situation out of fear.  They played god with the new life they'd created, and given that the living nature of the Geth was accidental, cannot be said to have played god when creating them.  They valued authoritarianism and control over the sanctity of life.

And they weren't the only ones to make a horrible mistake.  Humans continued with their reckless expansion efforts; Turians started a paranoid and cold-blooded war; Asari hid galactic secrets for the sake of their pride; Salrians initiated the Genophage; Krogan attempted a Mandolorian-style conquest of the galaxy...

You only have to see the poverty and racism suffered by the Vorcha to know that the galaxy circa 2185 is not in an ideal state.

The people of the galaxy aren't perfect, far from it.  They're making mistakes, stabbing each other in the back, and vying for power.  Collectively and individually.  But how do we solve such issues?  There can be no answer, but there are ways to try.  We gain support of the Geth and Quarians by trusting them to co-exist; the same can be said for trusting the Krogans when curing the Genophage.  We can't know whether these were the right choices in the long run, but what we can say is that we are valuing the lives of these individuals and trusting them to show us the same courtesy.  We can only ever do one thing - try our best.

Each race, each group, each individual has its problems, but each has its strengths and values too.  Each is just trying to make its way in the galaxy without perishing.  But the Reapers?  What do they represent?  The opposite of trust, value in the sanctity life, community.  They represent fear, wiping out life in its prime to ensure life is not wiped out in some distant part of the future.  They represent transforming living beings into preserved paste.  They represent dominating the galaxy with an iron fist, and coming down hard on all who oppose, and even those who don't.  They represent life without hope, like Shepard alludes to at the end.

Did you all really forget all the things they did, all the things they stood for, throughout the trilogy and the backstory / history, based on one conversation with the Reaper leader?  When people say there's only one choice, they're not trying to make you feel bad, they're saying that the other choices represent becoming a new problem, by embracing fear and control, and not trusting the people of the galaxy to make their own way.

Modifié par Davik Kang, 20 février 2013 - 02:41 .

[ElSuperGecko]

Excellent contribution Davik, and a lot of food for thought!

I'll pick up on one point if I may:

Davik Kang wrote...
So the Reapers are misunderstood, and just trying to resolve an inevitable conflict. And you base this on... one conversation with the Reaper leader.

While it is possible for one new piece of information to alter a person's perceptions completely, a lot of people seem to forget that the Reaper leader has it's own goals, it's own motives and it's own methods.

Is one conversation with the creator of the beings we've fought with for the last three games really enough to affect your resolve?

The Catalyst conversation lasts no longer than five minutes, even if you explore every single option available. It is packed with vague assurances, contradictions, platitudes and very little in the way of detail. The Catalyst expects you to accept it's arguments and it's logic without question, even when they fly in the face of everything you've learned over the past three games.

We have spoken to Reapers. We have seen them in action, and the results of their actions. We have seen their work first hand. We know what they are capable of, how they operate, how they percieve us and how they percieve themselves, and we have seen what happens to those who accept their ideals and submit to them.

And yet, despite all our first-hand experience, despite everything we've learned, everything we've seen and everything we've been told, one two-minute conversation with their creator is apparently enough to make people forget all this. It's enough to make some people do what they just argued was impossible, and enough to make some people put the fate of the entire galaxy firmly back in the Reaper's hands.

A choice isn't always a good thing, and not all roads lead to Rome.

[Davik Kang]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

Excellent contribution Davik, and a lot of food for thought!

...

It's enough to make some people do what they just argued was impossible, and enough to make some people put the fate of the entire galaxy firmly back in the Reaper's hands.

A choice isn't always a good thing, and not all roads lead to Rome.

Thx boss though I imagine it'll fall on deaf ears.

Reapers still in control yeah... though the endings' presentation has left the impression that all roads do lead the same way.  I kind of wish metagaming could be sidelined during such discussions but it's not really possible.

[DeinonSlayer]

Excellent post, Kang.

[Obadiah]

@Davik Kang
That is part of making the decision at the end. There is, as you have well described, who your enemy is and what it represents, and then there are the options to stop the war. These are not inseparable, but sometimes focusing on who your enemy is can be counterproductive.

This is one of the reasons I like the ending more than I dislike it. Shepard can get to the decision chamber and see permanently stopping the Reapers as the most important or only consideration, or he can get there and see an opportunity to end the war and achieve something else.

Modifié par Obadiah, 20 février 2013 - 03:56 .

[GethPrimeMKII]

Brilliant post David Kang, You have my respect.

[Davik Kang]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Excellent post, Kang.

Cheers, ppl will still hate the endings though, but it's cool I can accept it.

Obadiah wrote...

@Davik Kang
That is part of making the decision at the end. There is, as you have well described, who your enemy is and what it represents, and then there are the options to stop the war. These are not inseparable, but sometime focusing on who your enemy is can be counterproductive.

This is one of the reasons I like the ending more than I dislike it. Shepard can get to the decision chamber and see permanently stopping the Reapers as the most important or only consideration, or he can get there and see an opportunity to end the war and achieve something else.

Well yeah, it's one of the reasons I liked Mass Effect, the idea that I might be making th wrong choice by e.g. saving the Rachni queen, of course the game could never just go "ha! you were wrong" without killing the individual element of each player's story.

[ElSuperGecko]

Obadiah wrote...
This is one of the reasons I like the ending more than I dislike it. Shepard can get to the decision chamber and see permanently stopping the Reapers as the most important or only consideration, or he can get there and see an opportunity to end the war and achieve something else.

True, however ask yourself - is it actually Shepard's role to "achieve something else"?

Is it right for one individual to arbitrariy determine the fate of every living being in the galaxy, to wield unspeakable and unstoppable power?  It was putting that kind of decision, that kind of power in the hands of one ill-equipped being that lead to the Reapers and the cycle of extinction in the first place.

Should Shepard be the one to determine the evolutuionare path of all life?  Or should Shepard - as an individual, and a soldier - look to complete the immediate mission and end the wat, and leave the galaxy's future in the hands of the people who inhabit it?

I agree with you however, it is exactly these questions - and the polarising responses they draw from different people - that lets me appreciate and enjoy the ending, and the Mass Effect series as a whole.

Modifié par ElSuperGecko, 20 février 2013 - 04:08 .

[CronoDragoon]

Davik Kang wrote...
Did you all really forget all the things they did, all the things they stood for, throughout the trilogy and the backstory / history, based on one conversation with the Reaper leader?  When people say there's only one choice, they're not trying to make you feel bad, they're saying that the other choices represent becoming a new problem, by embracing fear and control, and not trusting the people of the galaxy to make their own way.

While I agree with you about people making their own way, I think you're trivializing the revelation that the Catalyst controls the Reapers. It isn't just the convo with the Reaper leader, either: The Leviathans corroborate everything he says.

So we can take it as fact that the Catalyst controls the Reapers. Accordingly, it is perfectly valid to view the Reapers as innocent, looking at it either philosophically or legally. "They" did not do anything, any more than me knocking you out, putting a gun in your hand, and pulling the trigger with your finger to kill someone is your fault. You mention "all the things they did" and "all the things they stood for" together as if they are part of the same argument, when in fact those are completely different reasons for Destroying them. I happen to agree with the latter since I think Destroying them represents justice and balance for all those killed to make them, but I am honest enough with myself to recognize that I am destroying entities who can't shoulder the blame for the Reaper cycle.