458 réponses à ce sujet

[Bullseye_Sally]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

...because some people appear to forget in the last five minutes.

If anyone's stuck in the "Us vs Them" mentality, it's the Reapers themselves.  When have they ever shown any care for anything other than their own designs?

Time and time again they've told us we are insignificant, our actions meaningless and futile, that we are nothing but insects before them, that our destruction is necessary and inevitable.

They've proven to be remorseless, emotionless, brutal, relentless. They've butched billions of innocent living beings, exterminated thousands of races and wiped out countless civilisations over the course of millenia.

DO NOT FORGET THIS FACT.

The REAPERS are the aggressors. The REAPERS are the ones who refuse to negotiate. The REAPERS are the ones who perpetrate the cycle of extinction and unless they are removed from the equation, they will inevitably be the ones who end it.

Only when their backs are truly to the wall do they become willing to talk.  But even then, they try to twist us to fulfilling their own goals.  To making their purpose our own.  Now, you can empathise with the Catalyst if you want, you can listen to it's (inhuman) arguments, accept it's (disingenuous) assertations and agree with it's (flawed) logic if you wish, but TWO MINUTES of nonsensical platitudes and vague assurances are not enough to convince me that everything we know about the Reapers is a lie.

The Reapers have told us from day one: "YOUR DESTRUCTION IS INEVITABLE"

They kill indiscriminately - soldier, civilian, man, woman, child, baby. They care nothing for anything but their own motives, their own goals. And they are clever enough and manipulative enough to persuade people to trust them, to accept them, to believe in them. Just like you're doing right now.

They turn organic races against each other, and that's why they have always - ALWAYS - won.

We can't trust them. We can't allow them to influence us. We can't let them sway our resolve.

We FIGHT. Or we DIE.

By their very nature, they've given us no other choice.

I agree with all of the above.  The reapers are too dangerous to be left alive.

[jtav]

Let's see: I've already cured the genophage, rewrote geth heretics, blown the Council to hell, and handed over the CB. You'll excuse me if I don't think "you don't have the right to make this decision" as persuasive. My principal Shepard is the sort who would try for either Control or Synthesis. He'll create a better world. Not the first time he's went against the majority vote.

[ElSuperGecko]

That would be true CronoDragon, if our encounters with the Reapers didn't give us very distinct and very clear impressions of the Reapers themselves.

The Catalyst may have created them, and may control them, and may have given them their purpose, but they have their own personalities, their own opinions of themselves and the races they harvest, and they have never once appeared anything but malevolent.

Do we attribute that malevolence to the Catalyst? Barring Refuse, it shows us no sign of emotion whatsoever.

No, our perceptiions of the Reapers themselves have to guide us in this.

[Davik Kang]

jtav wrote...

Let's see: I've already cured the genophage, rewrote geth heretics, blown the Council to hell, and handed over the CB. You'll excuse me if I don't think "you don't have the right to make this decision" as persuasive. My principal Shepard is the sort who would try for either Control or Synthesis. He'll create a better world. Not the first time he's went against the majority vote.

Ok Mary Sue!  Send my best regards to Mordin as you stomp on his grave.

[ElSuperGecko]

jtav wrote...
Let's see: I've already cured the genophage, rewrote geth heretics, blown the Council to hell, and handed over the CB. You'll excuse me if I don't think "you don't have the right to make this decision" as persuasive. My principal Shepard is the sort who would try for either Control or Synthesis. He'll create a better world. Not the first time he's went against the majority vote.

So, you're saying your Shepard is perfectly happy to make the same mistake that the Leviathan did with the Catalyst, then?  The same decision that led to their downfall?

And you're saying that your Shepard doesn't believe that the galaxy should be free to determine it's own fate, and instead should have it's destiny dictated to it by a single individual?

And you agree with the Catalyast that life - all life - as it currently exists is imperfect, flawed, and in need of guiding or altering by an external source, regardless of how underqualified that source may be to make such a decision?

Modifié par ElSuperGecko, 20 février 2013 - 04:25 .

[Obadiah]

jtav wrote...

Let's see: I've already cured the genophage, rewrote geth heretics, blown the Council to hell, and handed over the CB. You'll excuse me if I don't think "you don't have the right to make this decision" as persuasive. My principal Shepard is the sort who would try for either Control or Synthesis. He'll create a better world. Not the first time he's went against the majority vote.

@ElSuperGecko
My response to Shep's role was ninja-ed by Jtav:ph34r:

[jtav]

No, he doesn't believe this particular galaxy should be left completely to it's own devices because "it's own devices" were covering up the Thessia beacon, trying to uplift the yahg for political gain, a couple of genocides, establishing a grossly unfair political system. He's always been something of a revolutionary and he sees the chance to alleviate some of the misery and injustice in the galaxy. Is that arrogant of him? Yep. It's also perfectly IC, and through that I the player get the universe I want.

[Dr_Extrem]

jtav wrote...

Let's see: I've already cured the genophage, rewrote geth heretics, blown the Council to hell, and handed over the CB. You'll excuse me if I don't think "you don't have the right to make this decision" as persuasive. My principal Shepard is the sort who would try for either Control or Synthesis. He'll create a better world. Not the first time he's went against the majority vote.

this assumes, that it really is a better world.

[jtav]

Krogan civilization entering a golden age, maskless quarians, futuristic cities. I'd say he did improve the galaxy in significant respects.

[Dr_Extrem]

jtav wrote...

Krogan civilization entering a golden age, maskless quarians, futuristic cities. I'd say he did improve the galaxy in significant respects.

another uplifting? ... if mass effect did tell us one thing - uplifting never works out. unless, you change the peoples mindsets. 

(in destroy) 
quariens will get rid of their masks without synthesis as well. if the krogan enter an new golden age, its their own doing - without the help of an outside force.

synthesis is a shortcut. it tells us, ou cant make it on your own, because you are weak and imperfect.

[jtav]

And I'm perfectly fine with taking a shortcut. A shortcut means that billions more will enjoy the benefits. Are you really going to condemn a few generations of quarians to illness?

[Dr_Extrem]

jtav wrote...

And I'm perfectly fine with taking a shortcut. A shortcut means that billions more will enjoy the benefits. Are you really going to condemn a few generations of quarians to illness?

its the natural order. shortcuts coem at a price - nothing is for free. the price in synthesis is the right of self determination and genetic diversity (outside of looks).

the quariens made their choice. it was their will not to settle on an other planet it was their choice to wander the stars and not to addept. and they knew that it will take time for them to readept - they were fine with it. tali stated, that they will most likely not get rid of their suits, because they became a part of their culture.


its time to grow up and live with the consequences of our actions. it is time to stand on our own feet.

Modifié par Dr_Extrem, 20 février 2013 - 05:08 .

[Obadiah]

It's also a shortcut to bypass the inevitable Creator/Created conflict, if you believe that.

Shortcuts come with a price, so does the natural order.

Modifié par Obadiah, 20 février 2013 - 05:12 .

[Dr_Extrem]

Obadiah wrote...

It's also a shortcut to bypass the inevitable Creator/Created conflict, if you believe that.

it is inevitable if you believe the catalyst. maybe it is.

if we get to the point of synthesis, it would be a free choice for everybody. the first generation could decide what they would want to do. without force, without pressure and with time to think about the consequences.

the forced synthesis of the catalyst, gives the individual no chance to say: "no thanks, i like it the way it is."


if we synthesise ourselves, it would be our own choice - not the choice of the archenemy.

Modifié par Dr_Extrem, 20 février 2013 - 05:12 .

[o Ventus]

jtav wrote...

And I'm perfectly fine with taking a shortcut. A shortcut means that billions more will enjoy the benefits. Are you really going to condemn a few generations of quarians to illness?

Please. Nobody is condemning anybody.

I get not agreeing with an ending stance, but congratulations on attempting to shame me into Synthesis.

[Ieldra]

Dr_Extrem wrote...

jtav wrote...

And I'm perfectly fine with taking a shortcut. A shortcut means that billions more will enjoy the benefits. Are you really going to condemn a few generations of quarians to illness?

its the natural order. shortcuts coem at a price - nothing is for free.

Untrue. This is just a dogma resulting from the - totally misplaced - idea that karma is built into the structure of the universe. There is nothing in the "natural order" that intrinsically prevents shortcuts from working. Also, we're working every day to emancipate ourselves from the "natural order".

Modifié par Ieldra2, 20 février 2013 - 05:16 .

[Dr_Extrem]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

jtav wrote...

And I'm perfectly fine with taking a shortcut. A shortcut means that billions more will enjoy the benefits. Are you really going to condemn a few generations of quarians to illness?

its the natural order. shortcuts coem at a price - nothing is for free.

Untrue. This is just a dogma resulting from the - totally misplaced - idea that karma is built into the structure of the universe. There is nothing in the "natural order" that intrinsically prevents shortcuts from working. Also, we're working every day to emancipate ourselves from the "natural order".

and still we have to pay a priced.


edit: the "natural order" of events would be, that the quariens readapt to rannoch by themselves. this would taka long time. it is the consequence of their choice. ame for the krogan.

if those races achieve new greatness, they will make it on their own - without help. i think this is preferable and prooves, that they can make it without help.

Modifié par Dr_Extrem, 20 février 2013 - 05:22 .

[BleedingUranium]

Shortcut = Uplifting

Shortcut = using tech we don't understand

Shortcuts have proven to be bad every single time in the MEU.

[ruggly]

Unfortunately, with the way the EC skims over any negatives, we don't really know what that price is. We can only speculate about it, really. Some people know already how many bad situations my mind has pulled up for synthesis, and I can do the same for control and destroy. But thankfully, I am able to pull up a lot of good situations for destroy that outweigh the bad, whereas jtav and Ieldra have pulled out a lot of good outcomes for synthesis.  Mind you, this is just my opinion.

Edit: I should say we know the immediate prices, but not the long term prices.

Modifié par ruggly, 20 février 2013 - 05:22 .

[ElSuperGecko]

So has accepting and adopting the Reapers' point of view - that doesn't seem to have stopped people either!

[jtav]

o Ventus wrote...

jtav wrote...

And I'm perfectly fine with taking a shortcut. A shortcut means that billions more will enjoy the benefits. Are you really going to condemn a few generations of quarians to illness?

Please. Nobody is condemning anybody.

I get not agreeing with an ending stance, but congratulations on attempting to shame me into Synthesis.

Let's assume a post-Destroy world. Tali said it would take sixty years to acclimate to Rannich. In Destroy, they are wearing the masks. In Synthesis, they aren't. That's a whole generation of quarians who don't have to deal with severe health trouble.

[BleedingUranium]

^ meta-gaming

[Dr_Extrem]

jtav wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

jtav wrote...

And I'm perfectly fine with taking a shortcut. A shortcut means that billions more will enjoy the benefits. Are you really going to condemn a few generations of quarians to illness?

Please. Nobody is condemning anybody.

I get not agreeing with an ending stance, but congratulations on attempting to shame me into Synthesis.

Let's assume a post-Destroy world. Tali said it would take sixty years to acclimate to Rannich. In Destroy, they are wearing the masks. In Synthesis, they aren't. That's a whole generation of quarians who don't have to deal with severe health trouble.

they knew what they were signing on for. they knew it would be hard - they made this very brave decision despite this knowledge.

and its not like they already have severe helath problems on the flotilla (talis mom).

[o Ventus]

... Which is still not condemning anyone. Do you know the meaning of the word?

[jtav]

Of course they do. And I'm going to put a stop to those health problems.