205 réponses à ce sujet

[Epic777]

Double post

Modifié par Epic777, 20 février 2013 - 08:03 .

[Brovikk Rasputin]

Epic777 wrote...

Brovikk Rasputin wrote...

After the EC, there's not a whole lot to complain about.

^^ Really? The execution is still very bad. "I guess the Illusive man was right". A few minutes before the player had gone through a lengthy discussion stating the Reapers could not be controlled. 

That is one thing that grinds my gears about the ending. The ending pushes aside general conventions for something that was doomed to not work. The classic writing convention is the ending must wrap up the loose ends and be conclusive. There is no lead up to synthesis or control, those endings just appear from no where

Yes there are. 
Saren stood for synthesis. TIM for control. 

[Bizantura]

Still despise the ending but have not found a game that can match the trilogy.  So no still enjoy playing ME1 thru 3.

Modifié par Bizantura, 20 février 2013 - 08:25 .

[Ieldra]

@OP:

The majority? I don't know. Most are probably indifferent.

Speaking for myself, the EC saved the outcome for me, so those elements I found depressing are gone. Leviathan foreshadows the Catalyst, saving some storytelling coherence. So the most glaring issues are gone, and I can enjoy the story for its good parts and ignore the few things that would ruin it if I took them at face value. I'm replaying and I'm enjoying it.

But if you ask whether or not the ending debacle still influences the way I think about those responsible for the original endings, the way they ruined dreams and the misuse of allegory as literal in a science fiction universe, then no, my annoyance about that has not gone away.

If I've learned one thing from this debacle, it's the dangers of becoming emotionally invested. I'll try to keep more distance in future, knowing that I can't trust game creators to not deliver an emotional punch in the gut with their next story.

[Indy_S]

Ieldra has lost trust in writers. That is a deep hurt.

[Epic777]

xtal84 wrote...

It's obvious from the amount of new threads started each day that the pain is far from gone.

It's disheartening how many people find strength in banding together and convincing themselves that ME3 is such a different and more terrible game than ME2. The second game has just as many flaws as the third, and they are both light years away from what the first is like (quite similar to The Matrix trilogy, minus the horrible dip in quality), but that is commonly denied here, in favour of the belief that ME2 was some glorious beacon of logic and perfection, which it hardly is.

I left the forums for a long time only to come back recently, and I had thought enjoyable discussion would have slowly crept back in, but no matter what any thread is about they all devolve into bickering over [insert whatever you want to call the "ending debacle."]

I prefer to remain grounded in the opinion that ME2 and ME3 are both flawed yet wonderful adventures which I love, and used to love discussing here. Now that's impossible because if you display any positivity towards Mass Effect 3 you're labelled an idiot and laughed out of town.

It's a shame, instead of accepting the obvious reality, which is that BioWare is now owned by a much larger corporation and is no longer able to make the old fashioned types of role playing games which they used to, a very large (or at least very vocal and persistent) portion of this community insist on forcing their unrealistic expectations and desires onto everyone here.

Do I think the Mass Effect trilogy ended as strongly or as detailed and varied as it could have, given the past evidence we had to go on? No, I don't. But I still love it as a whole, and I still enjoy playing all three games individually, and there was a time when this place could be a home away from that Mass Effect universe. Now it's a place of who can shout the loudest about their unending displeasure, or what group can muster the most outrageous signatures.

The only thing ruined after 3/6/12 was BSN.

I disagree. Bioware is at fault here. ME3 was promised to be many things, yet delievered non. These expectations you speak of are not born from the unrealistic delusions but from the mouths of the ME3 team.

Official Mass Effect Websitehttp://masseffect.com/about/story/
“Experience the beginning, middle, and end of an emotional story unlike anyother, where the decisions you make completely shape your experienceand outcome.”
Interview with Mac Walters (Lead Writer)http://business.fina...-all-audiences/
“I’m always leery of saying there are 'optimal' endings, because I thinkone of the things we do try to do is make different endings that areoptimal for different people “

Again, this is on the ME3 team. You right that ME3 and ME2(I will add ME1 to the list) had their flaws. Remember we do not love our favorite games because they had no flaws but the good parts of said games are enough to overlook the inherit flaws. Unfortunately the endings in ME3 were so bad they actually did the opposite, bring attention to ME3's flaws while diminishing the games' good points. The biggest difference between ME3 and ME2? ME2 had a great finale, while ME3's a mess. The Suicide Mission was another coat layer over the games' flaws.

Modifié par Epic777, 20 février 2013 - 08:33 .

[Oransel]

I love ME1 and ME2, but I strongly dislike ME3 and ironically, that's because of how much I love previous games. Core problem is the massive drop of quality in almost all areas of game, compared to previous installments.

Don't get me wrong, there were good heartwarming and emotional moments with characters and I will even say they were the best ones in the whole trilogy. Some of the sidemissions were good and enjoyable (my personal favorite is Legion's history lesson inside virtual reality), Tuchanka and Rannoch were the only valid arcs of overall plot (however, I have a lot of problems with not being able to get krogan support after sabotaging cure if Wrex is alive. It makes no sense). Combat is fluent and is most enjoyable of all 3 games. Voice acting is great. Lot's of flashbacks to ME1 and ME2, featuring your small decisions.

All of the above positive moments are very nice and touching, but negative is outweighting by far.

1. ME3 Crucible plot is unoriginal, lazy and weakest plot possible, even if it was done right. But it was not because...
2. Major storyline is plagued with plotholes, lack of any logic (Cerberus, coup, moving citadel to Earth etc.), OOC moments for the sake of already bizzare plot, thematic breakdance, rude violations of established universe rules, forced emotions and plain bad writing - start of the game is the worst offender. It's just bad writing, nothing else. I was not that offended by endings, actually, they were born from the overall weakness of plot and are nothing more than the pinnacle of it's degradation (which managed to break the tolerance of even the most accepting players) and for the record, EC did nothing to fix their core problems.
3. Your squad is smaller than in previous game without any justification, but laziness, lack of time or economy of resources. ME2 squad is downplayed in general, often in insulting manner.
4. RPG elements (not stupid combat, but dialogue and character role play) are reduced to critical level. Paragon Shepard gets defined personality you have no control on anymore, while Renegade players have to deal with bi-polar psycho Shep, as well without any control over him. 55% of dialogue is in auto-mode, while remaining is butchered to 2 options. If you are lucky, once in a while there would be attempts to intimidate/persuade someone, but they happen like 5-7 times through the game.
5. Bugs and glitches. Lots and lots of them and zero attempt to fix them from Bioware.
6. Terrible lack of proper exploration, sidemissions (quality lacks again in several of them, rachni is the worst from logic part, but has nice Grunt moments) and hub worlds, with plague known as fetch quests. Saving whole elcor race by launching a shuttle?.... Really?....
7. Overall focus on combat

And of course metagame problems - day1 DLC, awful way of dealing with the ending controversy, broken promises and so on.

So yeah, unfortunately for me, I absolutely love ME1 and ME2 and hate ME3. All I hope unrealistically is that upcoming "great", "huge" DLC will do something about at least some of the problems I listed. I want to love ME3, but I just can't.

Modifié par Oransel, 20 février 2013 - 08:45 .

[78stonewobble]

Brovikk Rasputin wrote...

After the EC, there's not a whole lot to complain about.

The EC did add some closure and reestablished some sorely needed emotional connection to the squadmates.

It also better explained the catalyst and it's solutions (different endings).

However... It did not address the fact that the catalyst itself makes little to no sense or that the solutions make little to no sense.

It requires a leap of faith that is by orders of magnitude larger than Shepards body surviving reentry in me2, dying and resurrection.



More on topic.

Still disappointed (wouldn't call it hurt), though I've mellowed and maybe gotten it more in perspective. I could still have a heated debate about the endings, like I do with eg. politics and what not. We enjoy that in my family.

Modifié par 78stonewobble, 20 février 2013 - 09:15 .

[DamonD7]

I feel better than I did in March and April last year, anyway. 'Gutted' wasn't the word.

The multiplayer has helped massively in keeping my interest and rebuilding some faith. That's been a real diamond. Still sadly don't feel quite the same way about Bioware as I did. I hope that can change.

[GiarcYekrub]

No, I don't believe the majority ever were. Its popular for some dumb reason to bash EA and alot of vocal internet trolls decided to do it. Personally I think Bioware fanned the fire abit by allowing youtube videos showing the last minutes to be shown out of context.
Essentially if you ask three of these trolls whats wrong with the ending you get three different answers and invariably whatever their problem relates to its something NOT in the game rather be an problem actually IN the game, some irrational bashing of the Catalyst(why Vigil is OK and the Catalyst isn't is beyond me) or hate for the choice options that they didn't wanna pick(Heres a tip if you don't like Genocide/Synthsis/Control don't pick it)

[Epic777]

Brovikk Rasputin wrote...

Epic777 wrote...

Brovikk Rasputin wrote...

After the EC, there's not a whole lot to complain about.

^^ Really? The execution is still very bad. "I guess the Illusive man was right". A few minutes before the player had gone through a lengthy discussion stating the Reapers could not be controlled. 

That is one thing that grinds my gears about the ending. The ending pushes aside general conventions for something that was doomed to not work. The classic writing convention is the ending must wrap up the loose ends and be conclusive. There is no lead up to synthesis or control, those endings just appear from no where

Yes there are. 
Saren stood for synthesis. TIM for control. 

Saren and his connection to synthesis is not referenced for two whole games, actually I would say all three games. Until the last section the possiblity of synthesis is not entertained. Same with control, until the last finale controlling the reapers is shown to be impossible and is not even discussed.

Priority Earth - Control,synthesis never discussed.Priority: Cerberus Headquarters - Control,synthesis discussedPriority: Horizon - Control,synthesis never discussedPriority: Thessia - Control,synthesis never discussedPriority: The Citadel III - Control,synthesis never discussed
See my point?
Foreshadowing for a major theme cannot simply be have a half hearted example many scenes back that is never referenced again until the finale, it should be stronger and dominated the story more and more.

Spoilers
Bioshock's big suprise, is exacatly what I am talking about, the game near the end shows stronger and stronger examples that Atlas isn't who he says he is and Jacks past. The player hears about Fontaine near the end of the fiest level for the first time, later on the patrick and moria posters. Near the end, Ryan basically mentions you finding rapture was a miracle. Stronger example after example that lead to the finale

[Oransel]

GiarcYekrub wrote...

(why Vigil is OK and the Catalyst isn't is beyond me)

Vigil was nothing, but an explanation of what was going on and had logical, good-written reason to be there. Narrative gave a bith to him, so to speak. Catalyst, on the other hand, was active player (and the main villain, by the way) which appeared in last 5 minutes in 70 hours long trilogy and through this brief period managed to break whole narrative to let himself in, added countless plotholes and was immensely annoying. They are beyond comparsion.

[Lyria]

I am still annoyed.
Many apologists always say how good the game is and how the last 15 mins shouldn't tarnish what came before but it does. The lack of an ending that takes into consideration the choices I made over 200 hours of gameplay put me in a really bad place with my feelings about Bioware and the Mass Effect franchise. The story was trite at best and something easily constructed by throwing darts at a dart board of ideas not unlike how the writers off the BSG remake picked Cylons. There should've been more time to finish the game we as fans deserved not the Beta game we received. There are so many glitches and little things that should've been cleaned up.
The whole experience and immersion gets destroyed when characters turn their head and talk to the wall instead of Shepard.
But Bioware got many things right. The combat is better. The powers are more visceral. The weapon selection is beastly.

[78stonewobble]

GiarcYekrub wrote...

No, I don't believe the majority ever were. Its popular for some dumb reason to bash EA and alot of vocal internet trolls decided to do it. Personally I think Bioware fanned the fire abit by allowing youtube videos showing the last minutes to be shown out of context.
Essentially if you ask three of these trolls whats wrong with the ending you get three different answers and invariably whatever their problem relates to its something NOT in the game rather be an problem actually IN the game, some irrational bashing of the Catalyst(why Vigil is OK and the Catalyst isn't is beyond me) or hate for the choice options that they didn't wanna pick(Heres a tip if you don't like Genocide/Synthsis/Control don't pick it)

Actually there is a diverse and varied critique that is probably quite valid from the perspective of the persons making it.

I'd say this post is the trolling.

Ie. dismissing critique from a lack of understanding of the word subjective, the concept of point of view and ignoring the kinda obvious fact that people are not alike.


In any case the absolutely widest and neutral numbers on the subject I've seen are from facebook. Out of the many millions of users of facebook:

74.579 Said "like it" to Mass Effect 3. So thats positive oppinions.
63.127 Said "like it" to Retake Mass Effect 3. So thats a negative on the endings. 

Granted the more vocal group will be over-represented, but considering the rather large size of the numbers and how close they are out of the total amount of buyers. Then I'd wager alot of people didn't like that ending. More than an unavoidable end of the bell curve of 5-10 percent.

Obviously this is not quite a statistically significant and wide neutral poll of me3 players, but the it's the biggest thing out there.

[GiarcYekrub]

Oransel wrote...

GiarcYekrub wrote...

(why Vigil is OK and the Catalyst isn't is beyond me)

Vigil was nothing, but an explanation of what was going on and had logical, good-written reason to be there. Narrative gave a bith to him, so to speak. Catalyst, on the other hand, was active player (and the main villain, by the way) which appeared in last 5 minutes in 70 hours long trilogy and through this brief period managed to break whole narrative to let himself in, added countless plotholes and was immensely annoying. They are beyond comparsion.

The Catalyst was nothing, but an explanation of what was going on. When was the catalyst ever an active player? It does absolutely nothing but impart infomation as Vigil did, it only did that after connecting to the Crucible. Vigil gave the history Ilos, The Catalyst gave the history of the Reapers. The catalyst is essentially an interactive pop up menu, an interface for the final choice.

How on Earth is the Narative broken?
What plotholes does it create? I haven't heard a single one that is credible.
Why do you find him annoying?

[XqctaX]

they broke my "readers trust" thats all i got to say.

[cyrslash1974]

Oransel wrote...

I love ME1 and ME2, but I strongly dislike ME3 and ironically, that's because of how much I love previous games. Core problem is the massive drop of quality in almost all areas of game, compared to previous installments.

Don't get me wrong, there were good heartwarming and emotional moments with characters and I will even say they were the best ones in the whole trilogy. Some of the sidemissions were good and enjoyable (my personal favorite is Legion's history lesson inside virtual reality), Tuchanka and Rannoch were the only valid arcs of overall plot (however, I have a lot of problems with not being able to get krogan support after sabotaging cure if Wrex is alive. It makes no sense). Combat is fluent and is most enjoyable of all 3 games. Voice acting is great. Lot's of flashbacks to ME1 and ME2, featuring your small decisions.

All of the above positive moments are very nice and touching, but negative is outweighting by far.

1. ME3 Crucible plot is unoriginal, lazy and weakest plot possible, even if it was done right. But it was not because...
2. Major storyline is plagued with plotholes, lack of any logic (Cerberus, coup, moving citadel to Earth etc.), OOC moments for the sake of already bizzare plot, thematic breakdance, rude violations of established universe rules, forced emotions and plain bad writing - start of the game is the worst offender. It's just bad writing, nothing else. I was not that offended by endings, actually, they were born from the overall weakness of plot and are nothing more than the pinnacle of it's degradation (which managed to break the tolerance of even the most accepting players) and for the record, EC did nothing to fix their core problems.
3. Your squad is smaller than in previous game without any justification, but laziness, lack of time or economy of resources. ME2 squad is downplayed in general, often in insulting manner.
4. RPG elements (not stupid combat, but dialogue and character role play) are reduced to critical level. Paragon Shepard gets defined personality you have no control on anymore, while Renegade players have to deal with bi-polar psycho Shep, as well without any control over him. 55% of dialogue is in auto-mode, while remaining is butchered to 2 options. If you are lucky, once in a while there would be attempts to intimidate/persuade someone, but they happen like 5-7 times through the game.
5. Bugs and glitches. Lots and lots of them and zero attempt to fix them from Bioware.
6. Terrible lack of proper exploration, sidemissions (quality lacks again in several of them, rachni is the worst from logic part, but has nice Grunt moments) and hub worlds, with plague known as fetch quests. Saving whole elcor race by launching a shuttle?.... Really?....
7. Overall focus on combat

And of course metagame problems - day1 DLC, awful way of dealing with the ending controversy, broken promises and so on.

So yeah, unfortunately for me, I absolutely love ME1 and ME2 and hate ME3. All I hope unrealistically is that upcoming "great", "huge" DLC will do something about at least some of the problems I listed. I want to love ME3, but I just can't.

I am in the same train. I don't hate ME3. The game is not bad by itself, better than a lot of games produced in the same period. But it's a Mass Effect game and a Bioware game. The game should be better, as a lot of Bioware production, and as the other ME games were.

I have tried to replay the serie two or three times after ME3. I enjoy to play ME1 and ME2 for the... pfouh... 30th time certainly. But once ME2 finished, it's hard to load ME3. I have played to ME3 only 2 times (considering the SP part, I think that MP is very good). I will replay it with all the DLCs, but something is broken.

The EC is a good work from BW, really. But - prior to and after the EC - I disagree with their artistic vision, which seems to be illogical and incompleted considering the universe (my opinion).

However, I don't want to use the word "debacle" to define the game, I prefer the word "disillusion".

[d4eaming]

I was never "hurt" by the game. Some aspects were upsetting (Thane, Legion- two of my favorite characters dying for stupidass reasons)m some things I didn't enjoy, some things I felt could be improved, but overall, I enjoyed 95% of the entire series, and I am happy with "my" ending (I chose destroy). I have no problem with the glimmer of hope provided by the breath scene and deciding for myself what my Shepard does after he gets pulled from the rubble.

I came to the games late, well after all the pitchforks and torches had been pulled out, and the whole ending thing (from the fans- I had no idea what the actual endings were, but the fans screaming and crying made me not even try the first game for a long time) was not nearly as bad as I had been lead to believe. I watched it, thinking "ok any second now I'm going to understand why everyone hates it." Nope. I missed out on an awesome series by listening to the rabid thisgamesucks people instead of judging for myself.

I will purchase DLC and future games depending on if they intrigue me, not based on what the other fans think, because if I go by their preferences, I'd miss out on things I'd actually enjoy.

The screaming and crying is incredibly hyperbolic and overdone. I have better things to do with my time than engage in the negativity generated by the people who hate the end/the game/bioware/the whole universe.

[Nykara]

DinoSteve wrote...

If by hurt you mean will it effect my consumer choices in the future, than I'd have to say yes it will.

That about sums it up nicely.

[MrGMM88]

Yes they are

[King of Archers]

So I played the games one after another for the first time and when I finished got to the end of ME3 I thought "well...that just happened", but after I read that Bioware wasn't going to have Shepard in ME4 or even have it in the same cycle, I think they're were shooting themselves in the foot, I've talked with Chris Priestly and a few others, but now I need your help, if you had the to choose between the current ending or the following witch would you chose?

Details
-more cut scenes/changes to cut scenes to account for all war assets in the final battle
-after tali/legion's mission on rannoch the camera pans around the cliff as tali takes off her mask and Shepard comes up behind her and puts his arm around her waist as she says she's with him til the end (so you see her face as she's talking) (tali is my LI and I made peace between the quarians and the geth at full paragon).

-after rannoch tali makes a backup drive for EDI so if something happens to her joker won't lose her forever like legion, and the fleet do the same with the geth severs so that it they fail the remaining geth will have a 50000 year head start on finding a way to stop the reapers.

I wouldn't change most of the ending other than the already stated saving of the geth and EDI, the other things I would change are, for control Shepard would disintegrate into liquid not dust, a fifth ending and the end cut scenes of the big three.

- renegade: Shepard does nothing/the cycle continues, no change

- paragon: Shepard convinces the catalyst the cycle is wrong and that this cycle deserves a chance, the catalyst sends the reapers away for now.

- destroy: no change till after cut scene, camera in front of almost dead Shepard, keepers start cautiously crowding in around, Shepard takes a breath, keeper nearest to camera turns off to the side and yells in slightly Scottish accent "we need more help!", turn back to Shepard and says grimly "the galaxy's going to need Commander Shepard for comes next". (explanation: the keepers where indoctrinated by the citadel all along)

- synthesis: no change till after cut scene, one month later, camera in front liara in bed, (by default/if you linked minds in ME1 to understand the prothen beckon or share a memory at the end of ME3/if she's your LI (if you have a LI who's not liara it's them and there in your cabin)), naked so you can see synthetic circuits on her skin(but sheets are covering everything that's privet on a human) having a nightmare, zoom in/fade to black on liaras face, someone on their knees chained to the floor, person screams, liara wakes up clutches the sheets to herself, irises glowing, she says "Glyph, I need you to send a message to all crew of the Normandy", Glyph wakes up very sleepily, yawns and says " yes liara, what's the message?", liara looks Glyph straight in the eye and replies "Shepard's alive!". (explanation: when Shepard sacrificed his body, his mind became trapped in everyone in the galaxy's minds(the chains), the first fifth of Mass Effect 4 would be you playing as squad mates saving Shepard)

- control: Shepard disintegrates into liquid not dust, already existing epilogue speech, fades-in to the base of the control platform, Shepard liquid starts to move, grips/climbs/builds on its self forming a bio-metal skeleton then bio circuits, layer by layer, until standing where Shepard was is a humanoid reaper, half-a-hight taller then Shepard, it crakes its neck, rolls its shoulders, looks back over its right shoulder eyes still closed, eyes open, it's Shepard, he grins and in a slightly deeper and geth like tone says "looks like I still have galaxy to save", cut to black, Murky by Cryoshell plays (see below) .(explanation: when he liquidises he becomes the same thing the collectors where turning humans into, he increases in size by half because he is now a lot more hollow, reaper Shepard's face is mirrored on what you Shepard's face is(so each is unique))

Ultimately all three endings have two thing in common:

- Shepard is alive, in some way or another and
- Harbinger was never there!, he was still out in dark space "assuming direct control" of a proxy reaper, to far form the mass relays for the energy from the crucible to get to him and disobeying the catalyst if the paragon ending is achieved, also he was first reaper made from almost the entire leviathan species and there weren't collectors to make reapers till the last cycle, he can make reapers and is 50 times bigger then sovereign,(all five different ending Shepard's at once, "Bosh'Tet....", EDI walks by "that part wasn't a joke") .

Mass Effect 4 starts about one month after your choice, as for where, I think they would start like this:

-renegade, Sorry I got nothing?

-paragon, new area, called citadel hub?, at the base of the teleport beam on earth from the end of ME3, Shepard goes up to sort out some political BS on the citadel, Sorry got barely more than renegade at the moment

-control, stowed away on a cargo ship going to the citadel, sneak off at landing pad, go through security, every alarm on the citadel goes off two executive officers come running around the corner, camera on their legs, zooms from between their shoulders, Reaper Shepard is on his knees, hands on his head, says "you think C-Sec would have gotten used to me not being dead", Garrus and Tali drop their guns, both "Shepard!?!" (got loads of background info on this one)

-synthesis, meeting in briefing room, liara explaining what she saw, head-tentacles resembling what can only be described as asari bed head "I'm telling you he's alive!", EDI with a hand on Jokers waist "It is systemically improbable he could survive for that long", Joker with his arm around EDIs shoulders "Yeh, I know how you feel liara, no one can replace Shepard, no offence Mr Commander Vega Sir!", joker mock salutes, Commander Vega, "please, I already told you all its just James, now as much as I want believe you liara there's no way I can prove your telling the truth...", Javik speaks up from the back, "if you would trust me I could enter the mind of Dr T'soni and prove or disprove if what she says is the truth?", James, "where not going anywhere fast without a third party, and your the closest we got", Javik, "very well, Dr T'so... Liara if you try to block me it will hurt...Do you wish to proceed?, Liara straightens herself, "yes", Javik steps forward put a hand on ether side of liaras head and then touches foreheads, on contact the screen shows the scene with Shepard chained to the floor, then screaming, shows new scene Shepard in a defeated voice "if only they knew", Shepard's eyes flash open "all we got were the scouts!", Javik is thrown from liara by a biotic mental blast, James "JAVIK!", Javik picking himself up and starting to exit the briefing room "I'm alright, but we must go to Ilos at once", James following Javik "slow down, What did you see?", Javik turns on the spot and looks Vega square in the eyes "three things, 1 Shepard's alive and running out of time, 2 a device designed by what you would call priests to give new body's to the dead so they may live again WAS made on Ilos unlike what my unit was told ", James, "and the third?", Javik turning back towards the cockpit in a determined voice "all we won was a battle, the war is still on!".

-destroy, Shepard wakes up, sits up and immediately hits his head on a pipe, walks out of the small room into a large town that looks like a metal tree-top village in the rafters of the citadel and is greeted by a keeper with a Einstein moustache and hair, "hello", Shepard "you can talk?", Keeper "apparently so, a lack of indoctrination can do that to you. The name's Theodore", Theodore stretches out his hand, Shepard shakes it warily and says "Shepard, what happened?", Theodore, "walk with me, you were out for quiet a time, a month to be precise", Shepard" My squad!", Theodore "They're fine, yes so is <Insert LI Here>",Shepard, breaths out relived "that's good", Theodore "after you blew up the citadel and destroyed the reapers in the galaxy , we found you and brought you back to the land of the living", Shepard" not that I'm not grateful, but the last time anyone did that it didn't end to well, what do you want?", Theodore and Shepard stop "A world safe once more, what you fought on earth was merely a token, and scouting party if you will, harbinger and the reaper army were still in the dark space when the crucible fired...", Shepard" Wait, were?!", Theodore looks up at the stars "the galaxy about to become a very fearful place Mr Shepard, unless you can stop them for good?" Shepard "I'm sure as hell not going to LET them take away everything and everyone I love!!", Theodore "I was hoping you'd say that".

also some random details from another post

-Shepard- During the course of the trilogy you invest so much emotion into Shepard that to have him die 9 times out of 10 just breaks your heart, and although the main character dieing at the end is perfect in some games (red dead redemption, la noire), it just doesn't work for Shepard, you need him to undoubtedly live.

- Harbinger- For the hype and finding out that he can "assume direct control" during ME2 all he does in ME3 is shoot his eye beam at Shepard once and that's it, a big let down and waste of an amazing plot twist.

-Tali- You have to romance her in ME2 to even get a chance in ME3...and then all you get is a photo shopped picture, personally I love the picture, but I wanted to see her face when takes off her mask on Rannoch and talks to Shepard, plus it would add more emotional drama wether she's looking at the sunset, saying she loves you or killing herself(I made sure I got the middle one)

-War assets- I spent so much time getting every war asset I could, and then to see almost none of them there in the final battle I felt like they'd betrayed me, I wanted to see on land: Blood pack, Blue suns and Eclipse fighting beside alliance troops, Salarian Special Tasks Group officers covering krogan riding cloned alien dinosaurs, and in space I wanted to see geth commanders in their own fighters helping Rachni defend the crucible, leviathans tackling reapers and forcing them to shoot other reapers, maybe even new war assets like the human reaper and the collector base if you didn't blow them up (you can recover them in the Cerberus base) or a colossal geth platform built inside one of Rannochs hollowed out moons and because it didn't have any geth programs in it at the time legion upgraded all the geth, it became a copy of legion.

-Star Child- This poor kid has three scenes before he dies, we don't know his name or if he has any relation to Shepard, I never got the chance to be emotionally attached to the kid and I feel the catalyst/dream kid would have better-off as the default and instead having your LI be in your dreams and be the form of the catalyst.

-The End- I like the lead up, the way you choose how to use the crucible, what the Star (now LI) says and the ends themselves (with the addition of saving of EDI and Most of the geth in destroy), the only part where the end fails is the final cut scene before the credits roll and the song plays (now Murky by Cryoshell), you need to know Shepard's alive and that there's one last chapter to his story.

-Trilogy- When I look at most games I see them fall in to one of three categories: singular, reboot and double trilogy.
-singular- a game comes out, it's ether great or sucks, they never make another, most games.
-reboot- a game comes out, fans love it, they keep making them till everyone says their all the same game, reboot and repeat, Cod, DMC.
-double trilogy- a game comes out, two more get made finishing the story, then new way more powerful bad guy was just waiting in the sidelines the entire time, now you must save the world again as this (hopefully the same, but probably) new guy who you don't give a flying Furby about, Fable, Halo, Dead Rising (in essence, although I like both Frank West and Chuck Green in this case)
It shouldn't be in a previous/future/parallel cycle ether as the reason for doing that (to make your choices from ME1, ME2 and ME3 not matter) would counteract the point of ME1, "to make a world where you every choice matters"
Mass Effect is special and deserves to be the first ever game series to be a four part/game epic and then never have another Mass Effect game made ever again.

-The reapers were supposed to stop genocide by killing all races before they commit it, what if harbinger decided to do just that
-Who's to say he can only make reapers or the collectors/ protheans were the only race they changed
-If you let the batarian Balak live that one could come back to bite you on the butt
-I always thought Miranda (or maybe Jacob if she's dead) would takeover after the illusive man was gone
-Lastly who knows how much he has upgraded himself, as far as I know he could big as the star the Cerberus base orbited in ME2/ME3 and have a gun that shoots Death stars!

-I loved that the credits song of ME1 was only played in the credits and feel that the "Leaving Earth" song was too sad a note to end ME3 on, I was finally downloading the ME albums form iTunes and came across a song for one of my favourite bands I hadn't listened to in a long time, Cryoshell, there a Danish band (they sing in English) that did the music of Bionicle for its last three years, anyway there song Murky, it stands for everything the Mass Effect Universe is, but in song form (and would go perfectly with my ME3 idea, go listen to it).

I really want to go work for Bioware, make this happen and bring the 7 or so other game stories i have to life, so to anyone who reads this and can help, I ask of you please do, I know it's an improbable life goal, but at 18 that's the kind your suppose to have, right?

[CPTHughJardon]

for me i was never hurt by the game i was by the reaction to it from bioware and their arrogance.i rarely post on these forums i mainly just read.one of the main reasons for this can be shown in replies to this thread when you have staunch blind fanboys that will defend a turd if casey hudson laid it theres little point.the problems certain people had with the game ( myself included),still persist so they will obviously bring them up,and rightfully keep doing so,untill/if they are ever addressed.everyone paid there money for the game and are entitled to voice their opinions accordingly,to call people trolls and every name under the sun for having differing opinions and valid concerns is childish and ridiculous.anyway to answer the OP question as long as the problems persist the ill feeling will,and also alot of people have moved away from the BSN to other forum boards where they can have open,intelligent and free discussion like HTL,clever noob ect ect

[Oransel]

GiarcYekrub wrote...

The Catalyst was nothing, but an explanation of what was going on. When was the catalyst ever an active player? It does absolutely nothing but impart infomation as Vigil did, it only did that after connecting to the Crucible. Vigil gave the history Ilos, The Catalyst gave the history of the Reapers. The catalyst is essentially an interactive pop up menu, an interface for the final choice.

How on Earth is the Narative broken?
What plotholes does it create? I haven't heard a single one that is credible.
Why do you find him annoying?

While Vigil is just an archive VI, Catalyst is advanced AI who created Reapers and still controls them, he is the big bad of the series, no difference at all, you say? He has his own will, motives and agenda - he is the active player in the universe. He has not only gave you info, but also gave you three choices and can take them away on his own will. It's far far more than archive VI.

1. Because he is detached from the story and has no foreshadowing in ME1, ME2 and general ME3 aside from one speculative line by non-important character. Leviathan DLC is post-situation attempt to salvage this wreck, but a) damage is done, it does not help that much, because everything is too far fetched and detached to accept it. That is in universe violation of narrative (+ plotholes, I will speak of later), but there is also immense meta damage - very lazy, bad writing of: introducing key character in last 5 mins, thematic violation, giving you choices at the end of the game rendering 70+ hours of gameplay irrelevant, extremely disapointing, confusing and retarded explanation for the Reaper's actions, scientific impossibility of Synthesis, forced compromise and so on and so on. You can browse these forums for days to find all the problems people have with catalyst and the endings. Key one from my perspective - Catalyst existence is alien to the trilogy.
2. Catalyst ignoring everything that happened in ME1 despite him having clear control over Citadel is the most obvious one. If you think about it, every action of Catalyst is conflicting his other actions (that's because he was invented in the last phase of game development). His logic is retarded from his own point of view, again browse forums to see why it is broken idea to save someone to kill him later to save him. Of course, all of the plotholes can be explained by "lol, but he is almighty and he is crazy", yet narrative is still broken and such outright atrociously bad writing makes me want to say big "F*** YOU" to anyone who uses it to justify ending fiasco.
3. Everything above and: because he takes form of a kid for no reason; because he is insulting my intelligence; because he has no form and is that almighty, but acts as a petty brat when you shoot at him; because Bioware defends this abortion product.

Modifié par Oransel, 20 février 2013 - 12:18 .

[Sc2mashimaro]

No. I thought the EC was a great gesture and fixed many, if not most, of the issues I had about the ending.

[GiarcYekrub]

Oransel wrote...

GiarcYekrub wrote...

The Catalyst was nothing, but an explanation of what was going on. When was the catalyst ever an active player? It does absolutely nothing but impart infomation as Vigil did, it only did that after connecting to the Crucible. Vigil gave the history Ilos, The Catalyst gave the history of the Reapers. The catalyst is essentially an interactive pop up menu, an interface for the final choice.

How on Earth is the Narative broken?
What plotholes does it create? I haven't heard a single one that is credible.
Why do you find him annoying?

While Vigil is just an archive VI, Catalyst is advanced AI who created Reapers and still controls them, he is the big bad of the series, no difference at all, you say? He has his own will, motives and agenda - he is the active player in the universe. He has not only gave you info, but also gave you three choices and can take them away on his own will. It's far far more than archive VI.

1. Because he is detached from the story and has no foreshadowing in ME1, ME2 and general ME3 aside from one speculative line by non-important character. Leviathan DLC is post-situation attempt to salvage this wreck, but a) damage is done, it does not help that much, because everything is too far fetched and detached to accept it. That is in universe violation of narrative (+ plotholes, I will speak of later), but there is also immense meta damage - very lazy, bad writing of: introducing key character in last 5 mins, thematic violation, giving you choices at the end of the game rendering 70+ hours of gameplay irrelevant, extremely disapointing, confusing and retarded explanation for the Reaper's actions, scientific impossibility of Synthesis, forced compromise and so on and so on. You can browse these forums for days to find all the problems people have with catalyst and the endings. Key one from my perspective - Catalyst existence is alien to the trilogy.
2. Catalyst ignoring everything that happened in ME1 despite him having clear control over Citadel is the most obvious one. If you think about it, every action of Catalyst is conflicting his other actions (that's because he was invented in the last phase of game development). His logic is retarded from his own point of view, again browse forums to see why it is broken idea to save someone to kill him later to save him. Of course, all of the plotholes can be explained by "lol, but he is almighty and he is crazy", yet narrative is still broken and such outright atrociously bad writing makes me want to say big "F*** YOU" to anyone who uses it to justify ending fiasco.
3. Everything above and: because he takes form of a kid for no reason; because he is insulting my intelligence; because he has no form and is that almighty, but acts as a petty brat when you shoot at him; because Bioware defends this abortion product.

1.What proof do you have that he's the big bad King of the Reapers? He could be just a recording, a VI imprint, an echo of the Reaper originating inteligence, seriously it does absolutely nothing but offer Shepard the choice. What he is isn't really important. What is important is Shepards achievement to get to that moment and the implications of that accomplishment.

2.I never saw the crucible in ME1 can you point it out for me, and as I said there is no proof of this "King of the Reapers" you seem to be going on about as it has never interfered in the past as far as I'm aware

3.Did you not see the dream sequences, the moment he dies on Earth scars Shepard and represents every life Shep couldn't save, something on the forefront of Sheps subconcious so when picking a form it seems a sensible option. Personally I'd of rather the LI be used or maybe Avina but I'm not angry about it as it represents a large part of Sheps character development in the 3rd game