856 réponses à ce sujet

[AaronRiley08]

Sadly enough what this all boils down to is that all of us want this to come out already, none of us have a clue when its comming and the best thing we can do is play 30 different characters and hope and pray that they fix the bug before we all lose our sanity...

[XxDrunkSniperxX]

Sloth Of Doom wrote...


Since only bugged, early versions made it to servers it is easy enough to use logic(something you obviously have never heard of) to say that the leaked version must be an earlier one, and since all earlier versions had the bug, that the leaked version therefore has the bug.    Do you want me to type that slower for you?  Maybe use a pop-up picture book?

other than intentionaly going outside of the map (easily fixed, i assume), what bug?.. <_<

and how do you know they're bugged anyway? logic would determine that if you haven't played the leaked copy then thats just lies and speculation on your part.

[Mechnic]

AaronRiley08 wrote...

Sadly enough what this all boils down to is that all of us want this to come out already, none of us have a clue when its comming and the best thing we can do is play 30 different characters and hope and pray that they fix the bug before we all lose our sanity...

It is not a bug; it is an ISSUE. Which could mean a number of things; a programmer got H1N1 and is out sick, a programmer kicked the bucket, a dis-satisfied programmer quit, a platform manufacturer wanted the release to be made all at once, or the programmers cokes were spiked with darkspawn blood and most didn't survive!!!!

[Sloth Of Doom]

Mechnic wrote...

AaronRiley08 wrote...

Sadly enough what this all boils down to is that all of us want this to come out already, none of us have a clue when its comming and the best thing we can do is play 30 different characters and hope and pray that they fix the bug before we all lose our sanity...

It is not a bug; it is an ISSUE. Which could mean a number of things; a programmer got H1N1 and is out sick, a programmer kicked the bucket, a dis-satisfied programmer quit, a platform manufacturer wanted the release to be made all at once, or the programmers cokes were spiked with darkspawn blood and most didn't survive!!!!

I agree that everyone is leaping to a 'bug' conclusion here.  I aso call it a 'bug' because that is what eveyone is expecting, but we may never really know.   Fernando said in an interview that the issue was noticed AFTER it went through EA QA and was at microsoft (the last stop) but that the issue was not noticed by microsoft nor was microsoft the problem.

Since this thread is full of wild speculation as it is, I think I will wildly speculat that the issue was in fact some sort of incredibly nonsensical continuity or lore error that has necessitated re-writing and/or editing.   This would explain bth the length of the delay and the reason that pepel who played prior to the issue's discovery may have missed it (Since the vast majority of people just don't pay that much attention, and QA peple are generaly looking more for techical flaws).

Now, everyone can wildly speculate on my wild speculation.

[Pneuvo]

Having started a software tools company in a garage back in 1991, I think I have worn just about every hat there is to wear in software development. I am very sympathetic to the problems involved in delays, but as an avid gamer I was still disappointed in the way BioWare handled this situation.



If you ever watched "Mr. Rogers" you may know that he emphasized telling kids what to expect. It's not just kids, but all people that want to know what to expect so they can avoid disappointment. Letting people discover for themselves that they won't be getting something they were promised should be avoided.



Posting a terse message on a forum at the close of the business day the night before the promised release date just doesn't meet the standard. Now, don't go shooting the messenger! The messenger must be careful not to exceed his or her authority. I am grateful to Chris for not leaving us in total limbo.



If it was anything like the tumultuous decision days I have been through, parties at BioWare were advocating delay, while others were advocating release -- and when I say advocating, I mean strongly. The day may have been eaten up agonizing over the decision to the point that there was little time to consider how to mitigate the effects of the decision. That is where BioWare's response was the weakest.



On the one hand, they would not want to advertise their missed promise to anyone who might not otherwise notice. On the other hand there is some responsibility to those to whom the promise was made.



Finding a bug in software is a lot like finding a misplaced cell phone. Your eyes my light on it in the next instant or you may never see the phone again. You have no idea which. Sure, you have an idea how long it usually takes, but you wouldn't want to make a promise you can't live up to (yet again) on the basis of that.



Usually, if you miss a date, it will be at least a couple weeks before another date can be met. After you think you have solved the problem, there is internal testing, regression testing to try and catch any new bugs before introduction, documentation, version control, version generation, dissemination to key and general testers, pounding on it a few days, collecting and analysing reports.



Companies and users should set their expectations accordingly. Companies that break promises without adequate warning should expect a firestorm, and not accuse customers of being childish even if they are. Customers should expect delays, and they will usually be in terms of weeks.

[JaegerBane]

Pneuvo wrote...
Posting a terse message on a forum at the close of the business day the night before the promised release date just doesn't meet the standard. Now, don't go shooting the messenger! The messenger must be careful not to exceed his or her authority. I am grateful to Chris for not leaving us in total limbo.

Agreed. I don't own my own company, but I do work in the software industry and I'm fairly sure my boss would give me a right ear-bashing if I simply told him the night before delivery that it wasn't going to happen. That said, if I said nothing at all, things would get worse.

Personally I get the vibe that something rather major occured to stop the release. Any of you who were around when the Bring Down the Sky DLC for Mass Effect got delayed would know that Bioware didn't really get it right there.

[David Gaider]

Speaking hypothetically, a bug that affects only 5% of users catastrophically is strill a catastrophic bug. 5% is a lot of people. The fact that 95% of the users don't see that issue and think everything is peachy keen does not make it less of a bug. Also, as Sloth of Doom mentioned, non-technical bugs are still bugs. A bug is any issue that requires addressing by the development team. This is not related to RtO (as I have no idea what issues they're working on), but simply directed at those people convinced that whatever is worked on must be incredibly minor or (cue conspiracy music) non-existant.



As for other topics of conversation, I'll warn people one last time not to discuss pirated software. Whatever's out there for RtO it's not what we intend to release -- what you do with that knowledge is up to you and your conscience, and you can justify that however you wish. This does not change the rules of this forum.

[xnalimov1742]

Let's discuss Duncan's fate.
[spoiler removed -- if you need to use spoiler tags, it doesn't belong in the non-spoiler forum.]
Regarding the RTO delay.. Well I don't really care when it'll be released but I'm waiting. Bioware, take your time! You're the best! xD

Modifié par David Gaider, 12 janvier 2010 - 07:47 .

[darkshadow136]

David Gaider wrote...

Speaking hypothetically, a bug that affects only 5% of users catastrophically is strill a catastrophic bug. 5% is a lot of people. The fact that 95% of the users don't see that issue and think everything is peachy keen does not make it less of a bug. Also, as Sloth of Doom mentioned, non-technical bugs are still bugs. A bug is any issue that requires addressing by the development team. This is not related to RtO (as I have no idea what issues they're working on), but simply directed at those people convinced that whatever is worked on must be incredibly minor or (cue conspiracy music) non-existant.

As for other topics of conversation, I'll warn people one last time not to discuss pirated software. Whatever's out there for RtO it's not what we intend to release -- what you do with that knowledge is up to you and your conscience, and you can justify that however you wish. This does not change the rules of this forum.

David is right. for instance those of us that have upgraded our OS to Windows 7 if a bug in the DLC was fine with all 32 bit versions. But 64 bit versions of Windows 7 were affected that would be bad news for me and others, and would make sense for a delay like this. As for the warning I agree Fernando was nice enough to come on last night and give quite a lot of info and his thoughts and feelings on the delay and the other subject matter. Which he really did not have to do but he did, and as I said last night if he and others did that from the get go most of this anger would have been stopped in the beginning.

We all should just take a deep breath and play some of our other games or do other things that we either need or want to do, and patiently wait.

[AdamMp]

I find it rather odd that just a bit before you had scheduled release of the product to go live you 'convinently' find something amiss with it just before releasing it. The testing done before hand should have found the problem before it was even allowed to go that far.

[xnalimov1742]

Excuse me, but it just seems everyone has nothing else to do.. If you're not working or whatever, why not go read a book, watch some films, play other games. :/// Bioware are doing everything they can, They're people after all, not machines. And also their job is to deliver the best product to their fans. I think everybody can understand that. So.. :///

[darkshadow136]

AdamMp wrote...

I find it rather odd that just a bit before you had scheduled release of the product to go live you 'convinently' find something amiss with it just before releasing it. The testing done before hand should have found the problem before it was even allowed to go that far.

I myself understad your feeling there I was there awhile ago. But you also have to think when making games no vs. a few years ago. when game companies make games, DLC'S, or expansions now especially when they not only make it for PC but for 2 other consoles as well. It must be hard to make sure it's compatible with all platforms and OS's. Like now there is 3 main Os's for PC die hard people that still wont let go of XP, Vista users, and finally Windows 7 poeple like myself that made the jump either from XP or Vista to the new OS.

Although the engine Windows 7 is based off of is Vista there are some major changes betweeen the two. My main point is considering how many platforms they took on when making this game and launching support for DLC'S and such it is not outside the realm of possibility that they could have missed something through the testing, and even if it only affected a small % of people on certain OS'S  it would bring the hammer and anger down on these forums even worse if they released it that way.

So it is take some heat now and get it right vs. release it now with flaws and get hells fire later.

[SheffSteel]

AdamMp wrote...

I find it rather odd that just a bit before you had scheduled release of the product to go live you 'convinently' find something amiss with it just before releasing it. The testing done before hand should have found the problem before it was even allowed to go that far.

I find it odd that someone would advocate that a game company stop testing immediately before releasing a product.

[Sloth Of Doom]

David Gaider brings up a point I meant to discuss but forgot because I am hungover and dumb. Just because a group of people have played RtO before its official release (I speak of course the P word....playtesters) and most of them noticed no problem doesn't mean that there are in fact no problems.

Using David's example of 5%...let us assume 100 P....laytesters. 5% means 5 people notice the issue. We can easily assume that of those 5 people at least two fails to report it due to negligence, forgetfulness or ineptitude. One fails to convey the problem properly and so it gets ignored as 'not an issue' and one person just doesn;t realize the full potential of the actual prblem they have found. So now we have 2 reports on something, one of which downplays it: Nt exactly red-alert territory.

If that bug made it to the pubic however, and still only 5% of the players noticed it, we are looking at a LOT of angry people. I think we can easily assume DA has sold 1 million copies over all platforms. Now there are 50,000 angry customers.

So what is better, 50,000 angry customers, or 100 customers acting like spoiled children because they didn't get a new toy right NOW? Keep in mind that most of those whiny 100 would be the loudest voices in the crowd of 50,000 justifiably angry people.

Modifié par Sloth Of Doom, 12 janvier 2010 - 07:34 .

[Pneuvo]

Could I suggest a "News" button on the DLC download page? It could be disabled (grayed out) when there is no new news. Obviously they came to that page to find something, so why not help them?

[Discursion]

David Gaider wrote...

Speaking hypothetically, a bug that affects only 5% of users catastrophically is strill a catastrophic bug. 5% is a lot of people. The fact that 95% of the users don't see that issue and think everything is peachy keen does not make it less of a bug. Also, as Sloth of Doom mentioned, non-technical bugs are still bugs. A bug is any issue that requires addressing by the development team. This is not related to RtO (as I have no idea what issues they're working on), but simply directed at those people convinced that whatever is worked on must be incredibly minor or (cue conspiracy music) non-existant.

As for other topics of conversation, I'll warn people one last time not to discuss pirated software. Whatever's out there for RtO it's not what we intend to release -- what you do with that knowledge is up to you and your conscience, and you can justify that however you wish. This does not change the rules of this forum.

You're lying.

You're simply ****ting on PC & PS3 owners by delaying the DLC while you try to get it and the update pushed through Microsoft Certification.

It may be convenient for you to lead us to believe that RtO is bugged, and that the pirated version is not working or incomplete, but both of those things are untrue. The full, working version is available to pirates, and we have to wait an indefinite period of time, because of a single platform.

I'd let it go if you were honest and just said it's a pure business decision with wanting the DLC to release on all platforms on the same day, but the vague responses and letting us draw our own conclusions is really bad practice.

You won't even tell us the NATURE of the thing that has delayed it, and you think the best way to deal with people being pissed off that pirates are playing it weeks before us, is to treat us with disrespect and dishonesty?

I think you need to send your guys back to PR 101, because this is a ****ing nightmare in community management.

Modifié par Discursion, 12 janvier 2010 - 07:40 .

[Sloth Of Doom]

I think that last post from Discursion just sent them far up the list of total :wizard:heads on this forum.  I was going to break down the post with comments but some things just aren't worth it.

The post that got the thread locked?  That was it.

Modifié par Sloth Of Doom, 12 janvier 2010 - 07:44 .

[TzaTheAncient]

Discursion wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Speaking hypothetically, a bug that affects only 5% of users catastrophically is strill a catastrophic bug. 5% is a lot of people. The fact that 95% of the users don't see that issue and think everything is peachy keen does not make it less of a bug. Also, as Sloth of Doom mentioned, non-technical bugs are still bugs. A bug is any issue that requires addressing by the development team. This is not related to RtO (as I have no idea what issues they're working on), but simply directed at those people convinced that whatever is worked on must be incredibly minor or (cue conspiracy music) non-existant.

As for other topics of conversation, I'll warn people one last time not to discuss pirated software. Whatever's out there for RtO it's not what we intend to release -- what you do with that knowledge is up to you and your conscience, and you can justify that however you wish. This does not change the rules of this forum.

You're lying.

You're simply ****ting on PC & PS3 owners by delaying the DLC while you try to get it and the update pushed through Microsoft Certification.

It may be convenient for you to lead us to believe that RtO is bugged, and that the pirated version is not working or incomplete, but both of those things are untrue. The full, working version is available to pirates, and we have to wait an indefinite period of time, because of a single platform.

I'd let it go if you were honest and just said it's a pure business decision with wanting the DLC to release on all platforms on the same day, but the vague responses and letting us draw our own conclusions is really bad practice.

You won't even tell us the NATURE of the thing that has delayed it, and you think the best way to deal with people being pissed off that pirates are playing it weeks before us, is to treat us with disrespect and dishonesty?

I think you need to send your guys back to PR 101, because this is a ****ing nightmare in community management.

Though im not one to discourage people's speculations of a public speaking headfront, this is a bit harsh.

Its a game. Their developers making a living off a huge industry that could go fantastic or completly dive-bomb in two seconds. Lying or not, be patient, its a great virtue to have and practice.


They have already flourished us with enough. We can await a few more days to a month can we not?

[David Gaider]

Discursion wrote...
You're lying.

You're simply ****ting on PC & PS3 owners by delaying the DLC while you try to get it and the update pushed through Microsoft Certification.

It may be convenient for you to lead us to believe that RtO is bugged, and that the pirated version is not working or incomplete, but both of those things are untrue. The full, working version is available to pirates, and we have to wait an indefinite period of time, because of a single platform.

I'd let it go if you were honest and just said it's a pure business decision with wanting the DLC to release on all platforms on the same day, but the vague responses and letting us draw our own conclusions is really bad practice.

You won't even tell us the NATURE of the thing that has delayed it, and you think the best way to deal with people being pissed off that pirates are playing it weeks before us, is to treat us with disrespect and dishonesty?

I think you need to send your guys back to PR 101, because this is a ****ing nightmare in community management.

And welcome to a ban.

If you can't address any moderator or Bioware employee without being insulting, or getting your point across without being inflammatory, then you deserve a time-out. I can understand being upset over the delay, but that does not give anyone a right to speak in this manner.

Am I understood? By everyone? Thank you.

[Sloth Of Doom]

Enchantment?

[JKinho]

But he does have a point... if you were waiting for a simultaneous release on all platforms please just say so we'll understand...
Enchantment!!!!

Modifié par JKinho, 12 janvier 2010 - 08:00 .

[What a Twist]

I hear the latest patch for Xbox 360 is being delayed with RTO, why is that?






Edit: Enchantment!

Modifié par What a Twist, 12 janvier 2010 - 08:01 .

[Rui Pinto]

Mr. David Gaider, trying not to be rude but 'Discursion' made a valid point that you failed to answer. Are we waiting for RtO because of microsoft issues? Or is there really a bug making your lives complicated at Bioware?

[Sloth Of Doom]

What a Twist wrote...

I hear the latest patch for Xbox 360 is being delayed with RTO, why is that?






Edit: Enchantment!

I am assuming (yes, I know, darn assumptions) that it is much easier to get both things authorized at once than seprately.

Another assumption (with a bit of educated guessing thrown in) is that the consle 1.2 patch will have MORE fixes than the PC 1.2b patch..and that PC will get a 'catch up' patch to bring them up to par.

This whole 'wild speculation' thing is awesome!  Can I get a job just making crap up based on little to no actual information?  That would be epic.

[byne]

Discursion wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Speaking hypothetically, a bug that affects only 5% of users catastrophically is strill a catastrophic bug. 5% is a lot of people. The fact that 95% of the users don't see that issue and think everything is peachy keen does not make it less of a bug. Also, as Sloth of Doom mentioned, non-technical bugs are still bugs. A bug is any issue that requires addressing by the development team. This is not related to RtO (as I have no idea what issues they're working on), but simply directed at those people convinced that whatever is worked on must be incredibly minor or (cue conspiracy music) non-existant.

As for other topics of conversation, I'll warn people one last time not to discuss pirated software. Whatever's out there for RtO it's not what we intend to release -- what you do with that knowledge is up to you and your conscience, and you can justify that however you wish. This does not change the rules of this forum.

You're lying.

You're simply ****ting on PC & PS3 owners by delaying the DLC while you try to get it and the update pushed through Microsoft Certification.

It may be convenient for you to lead us to believe that RtO is bugged, and that the pirated version is not working or incomplete, but both of those things are untrue. The full, working version is available to pirates, and we have to wait an indefinite period of time, because of a single platform.

I'd let it go if you were honest and just said it's a pure business decision with wanting the DLC to release on all platforms on the same day, but the vague responses and letting us draw our own conclusions is really bad practice.

You won't even tell us the NATURE of the thing that has delayed it, and you think the best way to deal with people being pissed off that pirates are playing it weeks before us, is to treat us with disrespect and dishonesty?

I think you need to send your guys back to PR 101, because this is a ****ing nightmare in community management.

You're not very smart are you? How precisely are they screwing over PS3 owners? It was ALREADY going to come out later on the PS3. If anything, the PS3 would be the reason for the delay.

Also, if BioWare is the person pushing it back for a simultaneous release, I'll eat my hat. If anyone is holding off for a simultaneous release (and remember, we dont even have any evidence that they are), it would be EA, not BioWare.

Edit: I should be honest: I dont actually have a hat to eat, so in the miniscule chance I am wrong, I shall buy one.

Modifié par byne, 12 janvier 2010 - 08:06 .