560 réponses à ce sujet

[ColorsFade]

I'm not much for unhappy endings myself.

But I don't mind a little darkness along the way....

[andysks]

I agree partly.

What's a good ending anyway. When someone plays evil in MotB, the ending is sad but for the evil character is probably fine. I played good, but when I saw the video of the evil ending on youtube, I nearly cried.
I guess when the evil aligned player sees the good one, he says "lame".

The ideal is to give a lot of ending possibilities. I figured, one doesn't have to go through a lot of trouble for that. The same boss, same situation, but different reasons and motivations.

I have so far 3 endings, one for every alignment. And I will try to make 3 more. That is 3 good endings, and 3 bad. It's all up to the player, so even if he gets a bad ending, he caused it.

[Dann-J]

ColorsFade wrote...

I just did some more looking and amazingly our very own DannJ has done a couple. It turns out that the Red Dragon Dracholich I was planning on using is his work. And he has posted Shadow Dragon model and Bronze Dragon model. I had not seen the Shadow Dragon model yet. Very cool. 

I'm going to ping him and see if he has any interested in doing a Green Dragon and a Black Dragon Dracholich. 

I really need both of those bad. There's several green dragons in involved in this, and the Black Dragon Dracholich... is kinda important

Maybe DannJ can save me from having to Gmax this myself. I'd rather build areas and encounters

It just so happens that I've got green dragons (albeit wyrmlings) in the module I'm currently working on.


I created my own fully tintable white dragon model a while back (there was already one on the NW Vault), but I've also cloned the head of the crystal dragon in the game and tinted it to match my white dragon body. It makes a great green dragon, since the crystal dragon head in the game seems to have been based on the green dragon image in Monster Manual 3.5.

You can see some of my tinted dragons here, although that work predated me cloning the crystal dragon head as a second head variant. I've also since improved the tinting to make the body colours a bit more vibrant.

Modifié par DannJ, 21 novembre 2013 - 10:15 .

[Friar]

I haven't finished Mass Effect yet. I'm also kind of curious what movies password thinks are some good examples of bad endings, but I know he's doing his best to stay on topic.

Going back to the Lord of the Rings, though.
No one seems to remember that the ending wasn't so happy for some. The Elves left and the age of men arose. Aragorn and Arwen is about as tragic a love story as "bitter sweet" could ever be.

Who reading remembers the final scenes when Frodo, Samwise, Merry and Pippin return to the shire? They are all sitting at the pub. They look around and everyone is naive and happy all around them; without the faintest clue what hell these four had gone through. Naive and happy like the fellowship once was before returning the ring to it's proper place.

That scene is important to me because that is how I felt after my service in the Marine Corps. The scene had no words, but it described how I felt. How it feels to look around the room and you realize you have seen things you never wanted to see. Then the guy who wants to pick a fight has no clue you might be the very thing that stands between he and his maker. You restrain because you are tired of all the fighting not even because you are a gentleman.

It's a sad-ish ending to be sure, but it's also real and that is why the story hooks. At one point you set off to become a warrior and an adventurer or Marine or whatever, but when the smoke clears there are still scars to mend.. ghosts that need to be laid to rest.

I think unhappy endings are done incorrectly. Few writers can connect with the emotions it evokes.

I can say right now, though. That killing off the primary protagonist is an example of a bad unhappy ending to me. Death as a reward? huh? Just give me XP! lol!

Modifié par koundog1, 20 novembre 2013 - 11:37 .

[Dann-J]

If death sets the player free from some sort of debilitating curse, and they meet their reward in the realm of their chosen deity, then that wouldn't be such a bad ending. Although you'd have to explain how an exported character could then be used in another module afterward!

Not that there's really such as thing as permanent death in a world where any level 5 cleric can cast 'raise dead'. I distinctly remember killing Drizzt in BG1, only to have him come looking for his equipment in BG2. Having friends who are clerics has its advantages.

One of the things I like about RPGs is that my decisions as a player can potentially change how the story ends. I'd rather have a disappointing ending of my own making than be funnelled towards a stock-standard ending that completely disregards my character's actions. I play RPGs so I can have fun making the story myself. If I want to experience a professionally written story with a well-crafted plot, I read a book. I certainly don't expect that same level of storytelling from a mere computer game.

[kamal_]

DannJ wrote...

If death sets the player free from some sort of debilitating curse, and they meet their reward in the realm of their chosen deity, then that wouldn't be such a bad ending. Although you'd have to explain how an exported character could then be used in another module afterward!

Not that there's really such as thing as permanent death in a world where any level 5 cleric can cast 'raise dead'. I distinctly remember killing Drizzt in BG1, only to have him come looking for his equipment in BG2. Having friends who are clerics has its advantages.

One of the things I like about RPGs is that my decisions as a player can potentially change how the story ends. I'd rather have a disappointing ending of my own making than be funnelled towards a stock-standard ending that completely disregards my character's actions. I play RPGs so I can have fun making the story myself. If I want to experience a professionally written story with a well-crafted plot, I read a book. I certainly don't expect that same level of storytelling from a mere computer game.

Depends on how the character dies, clerics need a body to work with. There are plenty of "gonna need a wish spell" deaths. Get the bad ending in Crimmor and the entire city is vaporized vaporized, with you in it.

[ColorsFade]

DannJ wrote...

It just so happens that I've got green dragons (albeit wyrmlings) in the module I'm currently working on.

I created my own fully tintable white dragon model a while back (there was already one on the NW Vault), but I've also cloned the head of the crystal dragon in the game and tinted it to match my white dragon body. It makes a great green dragon, since the crystal dragon head in the game seems to have been based on the green dragon image in Monster Manual 3.5.

You can see some of my tinted dragons here, although that work predated me cloning the crystal dragon head as a second head variant. I've also since improved the tinting to make the body colours a bit more vibrant.

DannJ, your dragons look great! 

How many beers do I have to buy you to get my hands on those? 

Do you have any desire to make a black version of your red dracholich?

[ColorsFade]

andysks wrote...

The ideal is to give a lot of ending possibilities. I figured, one doesn't have to go through a lot of trouble for that. The same boss, same situation, but different reasons and motivations.

I always admired the way the Fallout serious closed out those games, with the montage at the end showing how your actions in the game affected certain characters and events beyond the game's story. I really enjoyed those. 

I've experimented, in a very narrow way, with player choice and its affects in my prologue. You do get to make some choices. Right now, because it's the prologue, those choices don't have much effect beyond how your XP and rewards are calculated. But I can see openings for later on where they might have an impact. 

[ColorsFade]

koundog1 wrote...

Who reading remembers the final scenes when Frodo, Samwise, Merry and Pippin return to the shire? They are all sitting at the pub. They look around and everyone is naive and happy all around them; without the faintest clue what hell these four had gone through. Naive and happy like the fellowship once was before returning the ring to it's proper place.

That scene is important to me because that is how I felt after my service in the Marine Corps. The scene had no words, but it described how I felt. How it feels to look around the room and you realize you have seen things you never wanted to see. Then the guy who wants to pick a fight has no clue you might be the very thing that stands between he and his maker. You restrain because you are tired of all the fighting not even because you are a gentleman.

It's a sad-ish ending to be sure, but it's also real and that is why the story hooks. At one point you set off to become a warrior and an adventurer or Marine or whatever, but when the smoke clears there are still scars to mend.. ghosts that need to be laid to rest.

I think you've written something very important here, and I wanted to comment on this... 

I think what you're saying is something I also believe in: there's a significant difference between a "bad" ending and one that moves you, even through sorrow. Sorrow is okay; it's a natural emotion. If, through a work of art, music or whatever, we can "move" the audience, that's a good thing. 

With regards to my mod, I have no intention to kill the PC off at the end. The NPC's are going to try their best to kill you anyway. You don't need my personal help through the story... The dragons and liches and necromancers... they're going to be enough. 

But I do expect some sadness at certain times. I'm big on trying to move people through emotion. 

Question: has anyone done a Fallout style cut-scene ending in a NWN2 mod? 

I have this idea: taking some screenshots of various NPC's against certain backgrounds in the game, then doing some tweaking with Photoshop, and then from that, using those to create a cut-scene at the end. Based on your game choices, the dialog would tell you what happened to them after the events of the story... Kind of like Fallout. 

This doable?

[andysks]

Exactly my point. I do the same. They look like side quests, but they might have something to do with the overall meaning of the campaign.
I want to go in length with this in my story, and I'm happy you do it as well. I like in all the infinity engine games, there were some points, where the NPC question was not actually addressed to the character, but to the person playing the game.
My favorite was before the fight with Isair and Madae, they ask you: Why are you really here?
And this got me. Looking at the response options, this is clearly a question for YOU, not just the guy you are playing.

So, I like games when the person playing will have to think about his actions, about what is good and evil, and the reasons behind his decisions. I don't want the evil playing people to be evil just to be evil and kill everything... I give them a reason to be.
Same for good, neutral etc.

And after the player made his path in the adventure, comes the end, where his actions will be judged and so on.
So, I don't know about you, but I really bond with my character when I play. And when I was finding out that the previous lives of me in Planescape:Torment did horrible things, I really felt bad.... really bad. (I always play good or neutral... even if I try, I just can't be evil )

Anyway, I talk too long. I hope this is the point of your story as well, correct me if I'm wrong. But if it really is... awesome .

[andysks]

Was writing at the same time as you. You just attach the image, has to be TGA, to the node. Then I guess you start a different convo depending on the ending. I did it for the end of my prologue, it went fine but then I chose to not use it due to other changes.

[Tchos]

I seem to recall I did it successfully with DDS files for my ending slideshow. I'm away from home at the moment, so I can't check.

[kamal_]

andysks wrote...

Was writing at the same time as you. You just attach the image, has to be TGA, to the node. Then I guess you start a different convo depending on the ending. I did it for the end of my prologue, it went fine but then I chose to not use it due to other changes.

Though one important point to mention is the game engine can handle .jpg with the extenstion renamed to tga (at least for loadscreens). This will save you a ton of space.

[Dann-J]

ColorsFade wrote...

DannJ, your dragons look great! 

How many beers do I have to buy you to get my hands on those? 

Do you have any desire to make a black version of your red dracholich?

My 'new' models are really just reskinned existing models. For the red dracolich, I used the alpha channel of the diffuse texture to make skin membranes ragged (I really went to town on the wings), addded a few bones protruding through the skin and some open wounds, and dulled down the colours. I also glazed over the eyes.

I could try something similar with the black dragon model. It's face already looks suitably skull-like, so it'd be easy to remove the flesh from most of the head and make it look like bare bone just by changing the texture. I wonder if empty eye sockets would be creepier than glazed-over white eyes?

[PJ156]

ColorsFade wrote...

[I have this idea: taking some screenshots of various NPC's against certain backgrounds in the game, then doing some tweaking with Photoshop, and then from that, using those to create a cut-scene at the end. Based on your game choices, the dialog would tell you what happened to them after the events of the story... Kind of like Fallout. 

This doable?

Yes it is, I used pwerpoint slides converted to tga's at the end of my campaign. the only ones that changed related to romances but it's all done via conversation and global ints. So long as you track them you can use them to send the ending tree off down any branch that is appropriate.

PJ

[ColorsFade]

[quote]DannJ wrote...

[quote]ColorsFade wrote...

My 'new' models are really just reskinned existing models. For the red dracolich, I used the alpha channel of the diffuse texture to make skin membranes ragged (I really went to town on the wings), addded a few bones protruding through the skin and some open wounds, and dulled down the colours. I also glazed over the eyes.

I could try something similar with the black dragon model. It's face already looks suitably skull-like, so it'd be easy to remove the flesh from most of the head and make it look like bare bone just by changing the texture. I wonder if empty eye sockets would be creepier than glazed-over white eyes?[/quote]

Creepier the better. 

But really - whatever you would want to do. I have absolutely NO experience with Gmax and have no idea how long it would take me to even figure out what to do. You'd be doing me a huge favor which, at this time, I have no idea how I'd repay you. 

If you feel like it, give it a go. You'd be my hero. 

And seriously, there'd be some kind of Amazon.com gift card coming your way or something. 

[ColorsFade]

Iveforgotmypassword wrote...

But seriously in one of my modules I had a companion that sacrificed herself to save the PC and even though she didn't really die and came back later due to the fact she was a nymph and a magical creature people told me they nearly stopped playing and I have no idea how many actually did.
.

Wow, that's good to know! Thanks for posting the PW. I appreciate that... 

I had considered offing one of the companions. There were story reasons for it, and I am not even remotely close to the point in the story where it might have happened, but after reading that I think I'll probably not go that route. 

Pretty cool discussion though. This is giving me something to chew on. I had not given a lot of thought to how the player's actions would impact certain things beyond the main story arc. But reflecting on my own gaming experience, I enjoy that aspect of games, and clearly others do too. So it's a good idea to plan for those elements and write them into the game. 

[OfficerDonNZ]

I know the NPC companion that Torsco means and I found it completely logical that this NPC would do what they did. Was it sad? Hell yeah. I thought it was well done. Unlike Shandra getting killed off in the OC which was just badly handled.

The way I look at it if an NPC companion is going to bite the big one it has to be logical for the NPC concerned and also has logical story based reasons. Again Shandra's death in the OC was just a very weak excuse to swap her for Ammon. It was poorly thought out and implemented, hell you could see it coming.

[andysks]

Well, I was not pissed about Shandra's death. It touched me, but it could be done a bit better. I enjoyed the Heaven area quite a lot generally, but yes. You could see it coming.

Colors, if you want to kill a companion, you an do it I think, since you are going to have plenty in your campaign. Just try to do it nicely and not just kill because you can . Also, what kamal said, in d&d, everyone can be resurrected as long as they have a body or wish.
I chose to off some of the companion in my story, and one more leaves because he has other stuff to do. But sine the story leads you to the planes, maybe you'll meet again... who knows.

In general, I think the player would hate something only if it's badly made. If it's aesthetically made, it can be good no matter the situation. Call it companion death, sad ending etc.

[ColorsFade]

OfficerDonNZ wrote...

...Shandra's death in the OC was just a very weak excuse to swap her for Ammon. It was poorly thought out and implemented, hell you could see it coming.

Oh, totally agree on that one. I was irked. I liked Shandra. Jarro was a tool and I never had him in my party  unless I had to. 

[ColorsFade]

Journal Entry

I am absolutely jacked! I finally got something working that fixes a problem I've had since day 1 of this journal. 

I've written about this before, but here's the refresher for anyone who hasn't been keeping up:  I love cut-scenes, but I hate how all your buffs wear off by the time long cut scenes end. In addition to that, I have written custom AI, and boss monsters with magic can insta-buff themseves. So, up until now, things have been a little unbalanced in favor of the enemies. 

When I first started trying to solve this problem, I tried to get around the issue by saving the spell data and reapplyin the buff effects. Unfortunately, that's nearly impossible as the effect data necessary to re-create the effect just doesn't exist and is hard to get at and store.

So, I tried a second tactic: re-casting bufffs coming out of a cut-scene. I tried this a number of ways with moderate success. There were issues with spells cast from items, etc., and it was less-than-ideal for other spells (Mirror Image being a prime example; you might end up with fewer images on the re-cast coming out of the conversation). 

About a week ago I started re-thinking the problem and decided to approach it from a different angle. Saving the buffs and re-applying them wasn't an easy process, required a lot of code and just didn't work like I wanted it to. In addition, I thought players might get irked when they realized I was manipulating their buffs at the end of conversations. 

My new idea was a sequencer item. I remember having that spell in Baldur's Gate 2 and I really liked it. 

I decided to look for sequencer items on the Vault. I thought maybe someone had created some. Well, some folks have, but by and large they are just making items with sequencer properties on them. Yes, I learned, NWN2 engien already has sequencer properties built in. There are just no items. 

I was excited, until I saw the limitations of the sequencers themselves. There are three versions, and they allow you to cast 1, 2 or 3 spells. One spell? So basically you're trading the casting time of a spell for the casting time of the sequencer object. Dumb. 

But... what if I could adjust the number of spells? 

Unfortunately, the code that defines the sequencer spells is hard-coded in an include library that is basically included in every spell script in the game. I'd have a lot of re-compiling to do...

But I figured there had to be a way around it. 

And there was. 

In the end, all it took was a spellhook script (easily added to my module's OnLoad event and thus available for all modules in my campaign) and a recompiled x2_s3_sequencer script. The recompiled version includes my own library for the sequencer functions. I have new versions of the functions IPGetItemSequencerProperty() and GetSpellCastOnSequencerItem(). The key is the new version of IPGetItemSequencerProperty(), which allows me to change the values for the sequencers. 

So now I have sequencers that can store 3, 6 or 10 spells. I love playing EK's, and buffing can easily get to a dozen spells. Watching all of those wear off during a long cut-scene can be annoying. But now I can come out of a long cut-scene and re-cast all my protections. 

Problem solved.

This fixes a big issue for me, because the more I develop this campaign, the more cut-scenes I want to use. They're fun, they're cinematic, they help move the story forward, but their only drawback is the buffs. And I hate, absolutely HATE having that feeling like I need to rush through the dialog to get to the fight so my buffs won't wear off. I hate that! 

Having these sequencer rods makes me want to play the OC again.... almost. 

[OfficerDonNZ]

ColorsFade wrote...

OfficerDonNZ wrote...

...Shandra's death in the OC was just a very weak excuse to swap her for Ammon. It was poorly thought out and implemented, hell you could see it coming.

Oh, totally agree on that one. I was irked. I liked Shandra. Jarro was a tool and I never had him in my party  unless I had to. 

Heh, I hardly had Ammon in my party as well unless the plot required him. Same with Bishop, Qara and Grobnar and to a lesser extent the gith cleric. Some NPC's you just love to hate. Also I still maintain some of the NPC's alignments are wrong. *cough* Bishop and Qara *cough*

[Dann-J]

ColorsFade wrote...

OfficerDonNZ wrote...

...Shandra's death in the OC was just a very weak excuse to swap her for Ammon. It was poorly thought out and implemented, hell you could see it coming.

Oh, totally agree on that one. I was irked. I liked Shandra. Jarro was a tool and I never had him in my party  unless I had to. 

At least you got to choose whether or not to take Ammon. Shandra was forced onto you. I don't think much of dexterity-fighters who don't have some sort of additional damage (like sneak attack or precise strike). As a country lass capable of running an entire farm by herself, I'd have expected her to have a strength score better than 13, making her better suited to strength-based melee via a longsword. They breed 'em tough in the country.

The OC was obviously designed with a young human PC in mind. If the PC was born not long before Ammon was sent to the lower planes, and Shandra is old enough to remember her grandfather before he disappeared, then the timeline works out well for an 18 year old human PC (Shandra could be in her mid 20s). If you play as a dwarf or an elf though, that makes Shandra exceptionally well preserved for her age. I think the default age for elf characters is about 150!

[Dann-J]

ColorsFade wrote...

 I love cut-scenes, but I hate how all your buffs wear off by the time long cut scenes end.

That's the game's way of telling you to keep your cut scenes brief and to the point. It may also be a deliberate tactic your enemies are employing - keep the party talking long enough for their buffs to expire, then attack.

Most of the cinematic scenes in my current module occur when you enter an area for the first time, usually from the overland map. Since the overland map strips all effects from you when you leave, the cut scenes aren't ruining any buffs. I use such introductory cut scenes as autosave points (0.5 seconds after the last node), killing two birds with one stone. Any other cinematic conversations I have are quite brief.