245 réponses à ce sujet

[Fast Jimmy]

Zkyire wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

I understand that people who didn't like the "auto-dialogue" (as some like to call it-- I never have, and I find it a bit vague as to what people are referring to when they mention this) in ME3 might be concerned about how it's going to be done in DA3. I suppose there's always an assumption that whatever game BioWare put out last, its next game is going to follow suit even if a completely different team within the company made it. Not everyone knows that, and that's fine.

As I've said previously when the subject came up, DA3 won't use auto-dialogue any more than it previously did. If there are lines being spoken by the player without prompt, they're either "neutral" lines that occur during a cutscene ("What do you mean?") or occur as a result of something you've already chosen. There are reasons why, in fact, there might be less auto-dialogue than in DA2, but I won't go into them as that would require explanations which cannot occur yet.

If, however, you dislike the PC from ever speaking a single line you haven't directly chosen, then you've come to the wrong place. That's not going to happen.

An example would be in ME3 with Shepard's chastisement of Joker post-Thesia, regardless of how the individual player's Shepard would actually react.

Even then, that's not truly auto-dialogue. You get two choices there... they just both happen to be choices that tell Joker he is being inappropriate. One somewhat nicely, one not nice at all. 

That would be more of an example of conversation railroading, rather than true Auto-dialogue.

[Zkyire]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Even then, that's not truly auto-dialogue. You get two choices there... they just both happen to be choices that tell Joker he is being inappropriate. One somewhat nicely, one not nice at all. 

That would be more of an example of conversation railroading, rather than true Auto-dialogue.

Oh I know, but it's still technically an instance where Shepard's reaction is really out of your hands (especially important in an emotional scene). 'Choice' or not, Shepard's not a happy camper either way.

Modifié par Zkyire, 21 février 2013 - 04:21 .

[Tootles FTW]

Whatever autodialogue DA2 had wasn't jarring for me to even notice it, honestly. It was just Hawke saying bland follow-up statements or questions that wouldn't be seen as offensive or OOC.
If they follow this route in DA3 I would be 100% fine....just don't go the ME3 route and fling me out of my immersion every other conversation.

[Zkyire]

Tootles FTW wrote...

Whatever autodialogue DA2 had wasn't jarring for me to even notice it, honestly. It was just Hawke saying bland follow-up statements or questions that wouldn't be seen as offensive or OOC.
If they follow this route in DA3 I would be 100% fine....just don't go the ME3 route and fling me out of my immersion every other conversation.

Agreed. Nothing Hawke really said made me think "Shut up, bro." He was a bit mouthy to be sure, but the content was pretty consistent with his/her personality.

[Tootles FTW]

Zkyire wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Even then, that's not truly auto-dialogue. You get two choices there... they just both happen to be choices that tell Joker he is being inappropriate. One somewhat nicely, one not nice at all. 

That would be more of an example of conversation railroading, rather than true Auto-dialogue.

Oh I know, but it's still technically an instance where Shepard's reaction is really out of your hands (especially important in an emotional scene). 'Choice' or not, Shepard's not a happy camper either way.

How about when a Jacob-romancing FemShep is autodialogued into congratulating her cheating boyfriend on knocking up another girl and choosing to name it after you?  HOW ABOUT THAT AS AN EXAMPLE?

[Asch Lavigne]

I hope DA3 brings back the whole "if you start choosing certain types of dialogue options, the MC will start talking that way on their own." I really liked that. It had always bugged me when a character would act "out of character" from how I am playing them when in a cutscene or something when they talked on their without any player choice.

Modifié par Asch Lavigne, 21 février 2013 - 04:30 .

[TheJediSaint]

One thing that I thought was a nice touch in Dragon Age 2 was that when the PC did speak unprompted by the player, the speech generally reflected the "personality" the player had selected for their PC. I wonder if something similar will be in DA:I?

Modifié par TheJediSaint, 21 février 2013 - 04:33 .

[Wulfram]

Just don't make the PC be randomly jerky just because they're aggressive/sarcastic, and don't totally shut out the player from the big final speech and DA2 would have been fine.

[Fast Jimmy]

Tootles FTW wrote...

Zkyire wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Even then, that's not truly auto-dialogue. You get two choices there... they just both happen to be choices that tell Joker he is being inappropriate. One somewhat nicely, one not nice at all. 

That would be more of an example of conversation railroading, rather than true Auto-dialogue.

Oh I know, but it's still technically an instance where Shepard's reaction is really out of your hands (especially important in an emotional scene). 'Choice' or not, Shepard's not a happy camper either way.

How about when a Jacob-romancing FemShep is autodialogued into congratulating her cheating boyfriend on knocking up another girl and choosing to name it after you?  HOW ABOUT THAT AS AN EXAMPLE?

It still isn't Auto-dialogue, just railroading. Just as bad in many cases, honestly, but not as easily accounted for. I don't think Gaider would be able to say "we will have just as much railroading in DA3 and we did in DA2."

[The Teyrn of Whatever]

esper wrote...

Generally, though, I think delegating the one-liners to what happens in battle a better.

I think I was being a little harsh when I suggested getting rid of the them outright. I say keep them, but make them optional. Reactive one-liners might be alright, but I'm probably going to just turn them off, given the option. When I watch a show like Spartacus I don't hear anyone uttering silly one-liners.

The repetition and cheesiness of some of the one-liners in DA:O made me really learn to hate them. "It's a MASSACRE and nobody's getting out ALIVE!!" is cheesy, even if well-delivered, and in DA:O, it wasn't. When playing DA2, I get sick of Varric's "How many have you got, Hawke?" line. I just don't generally like the damned things.

[Tootles FTW]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Tootles FTW wrote...

How about when a Jacob-romancing FemShep is autodialogued into congratulating her cheating boyfriend on knocking up another girl and choosing to name it after you?  HOW ABOUT THAT AS AN EXAMPLE?

It still isn't Auto-dialogue, just railroading. Just as bad in many cases, honestly, but not as easily accounted for. I don't think Gaider would be able to say "we will have just as much railroading in DA3 and we did in DA2."

Sorry, but how is it not auto-dialogue?  My Shepard is saying something without a prompt from me.  It's not based on past dialogue selections, not based on my Renegade/Paragon score, and certainly not based on my romantic involvement with Jacob - which could very well be that he cheated on me with the woman I'm now forced to congratulate him on.  You're railroaded into auto-dialogue if you choose to talk to Jacob, sure.

[SeismicGravy]

David Gaider wrote...
As I've said previously when the subject came up, DA3 won't use auto-dialogue any more than it previously did.

If I'm interpreting this correctly, (and please forgive me if I'm not) It sounds like DA3 will use a similar amount of auto-dialoge as DA2, meaning it would have much less than ME3.

If that's the case, be prepared for alot of .jpegs involving a picture of Philip J. Fry demanding you take his money.

[Paul E Dangerously]

Fast Jimmy wrote...
In ME1, you could equip hundreds of different types of guns, armors and various upgrades to your companions, with just as much flexibility and detail as seen in more standard RPGs, like DA:O. 

DA2, with its one-upgrade armor, and letting you equip various weapons and accessories, is nearly identical to ME3.

No, ME1 let you equip roughly twelve to seventeen weapons or armors per category that had incrimental "variants" that only differed in damage, shots, and accuracy.

While as a traditionalist I love outfitting my people with whatever crap I pick up, I actually like the idea that an NPC has their own perference when it comes to things* and the fact the player can't just force them into wearing (or doing) something extremely out of character. That's kind of why I like the solution pitched for DA:I the best.

*Given the fact chunks of a character's personality now vary entirely on the player, this isn't necessarily true any more, I guess..

[sarakirrer]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Tootles FTW wrote...

How about when a Jacob-romancing FemShep is autodialogued into congratulating her cheating boyfriend on knocking up another girl and choosing to name it after you?  HOW ABOUT THAT AS AN EXAMPLE?

It still isn't Auto-dialogue, just railroading. Just as bad in many cases, honestly, but not as easily accounted for. I don't think Gaider would be able to say "we will have just as much railroading in DA3 and we did in DA2."

Eh, I don't know, there's a certain amout of "railroading" (i.e. player is given choices that lead to roughly the same outcome, choices only affect how you say something and not the message you convey) that is appropriate in a video game that has set plot elements, and then there's a level that's just inappropriate based on what BioWare has delivered in the past. I think that fans of BioWare games aren't necessarily wrong to expect that they will be given a certain level of choice in how their character will respond to situations, especially with regard to romance options, so I see the instances with Jacob and the one mentioned earlier about being forced to chastise someone for joking around as being inappropriate uses of the railroading tactic.

In DA2, though, I believe this was handled pretty well and that BioWare (generally) offered good options regarding HOW Hawke would regard to events. You're never going to stop Anders from destroying the Chantry, but you can choose how you react to it; you're never going to stop Hawke's mother from being killed, but you can (within the three personality types offered) choose how you react to it. And when Hawke was given "autodialog" (which I'm assuming is those times that Hawke talks that you aren't given a dialog wheel option), it was either a) a question that was delivered in a neutral manner that worked with any personality type, or  matched to the personality type of your Hawke.

I guess my point is that we need to keep in mind that while autodialog and railroading were not handled well in ME3 (assigning feelings to your Shepard rather than letting you choose them), generally these elements were better handled in DA2. I say "generally" because I know there are some forumites who are upset that they couldn't express ingame that they didn't care about the deaths in the family--but this isn't really an autodialog issue.

Modifié par sarakirrer, 21 février 2013 - 05:29 .

[Zkyire]

Tootles FTW wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Tootles FTW wrote...

How about when a Jacob-romancing FemShep is autodialogued into congratulating her cheating boyfriend on knocking up another girl and choosing to name it after you?  HOW ABOUT THAT AS AN EXAMPLE?

It still isn't Auto-dialogue, just railroading. Just as bad in many cases, honestly, but not as easily accounted for. I don't think Gaider would be able to say "we will have just as much railroading in DA3 and we did in DA2."

Sorry, but how is it not auto-dialogue?  My Shepard is saying something without a prompt from me.  It's not based on past dialogue selections, not based on my Renegade/Paragon score, and certainly not based on my romantic involvement with Jacob - which could very well be that he cheated on me with the woman I'm now forced to congratulate him on.  You're railroaded into auto-dialogue if you choose to talk to Jacob, sure.

That's a bingo.

[LinksOcarina]

sarakirrer wrote...

Eh, I don't know, there's a certain amout of "railroading" (i.e. player is given choices that lead to roughly the same outcome, choices only affect how you say something and not the message you convey) that is appropriate in a video game that has set plot elements, and then there's a level that's just inappropriate based on what BioWare has delivered in the past. I think that fans of BioWare games aren't necessarily wrong to expect that they will be given a certain level of choice in how their character will respond to situations, especially with regard to romance options, so I see the instances with Jacob and the one mentioned earlier about being forced to chastise someone for joking around as being inappropriate uses of the railroading tactic.

In DA2, though, I believe this was handled pretty well and that BioWare (generally) offered good options regarding HOW Hawke would regard to events. You're never going to stop Anders from destroying the Chantry, but you can choose how you react to it; you're never going to stop Hawke's mother from being killed, but you can (within the three personality types offered) choose how you react to it. And when Hawke was given "autodialog" (which I'm assuming is those times that Hawke talks that you aren't given a dialog wheel option), it was either a) a question that was delivered in a neutral manner that worked with any personality type, or  matched to the personality type of your Hawke.

I guess my point is that we need to keep in mind that while autodialog and railroading were not handled well in ME3 (assigning feelings to your Shepard rather than letting you choose them), generally these elements were better handled in DA2. I say "generally" because I know there are some forumites who are upset that they couldn't express ingame that they didn't care about the deaths in the family--but this isn't really an autodialog issue.

Its not even an issue of railroading, its a moment of plot vs narrative discrepency, which is vastly different from each other in many ways. They intersect at certain points because the plot dictates one path you need to follow, while the narrative dictates the tone of the story.  Heck, you pretty much hit the nail on the head almost with how it is supposed to work. 

Or to put it another way, the plot is the events that happened, the narrative is how they happened. Hell most games with choices in them follow this already, Witcher, Walking Dead, Dragon Age, Deus Ex, even Skyrim with its open worldness tends to follow this closely.  

Modifié par LinksOcarina, 21 février 2013 - 05:32 .

[Icesong]

David Gaider wrote...

I understand that people who didn't like the "auto-dialogue" (as some like to call it-- I never have, and I find it a bit vague as to what people are referring to when they mention this)

You always have a quibble with terminology.

[phimseto]

Here's my example for autodialogue, David (if you read this).

In Mass Effect 1, when you talk with the counsel (either initially or in your meet-ups after story missions), you have a high degree of control over your tone or what you want to focus on. Ultimately, it may dovetail to the same outcomes with them, but the act of doing so lets the player define their relationship with the counsel and how they feel about them. That makes the choice to save them later on a more impactful one.

In Mass Effect 2, you still get a degree of this in your short interactions with them and with Anderson. Again, it allows you to define your character against them. I mention ME2 because one of the things that I was looking forward to in ME3 was letting the Turian ambassador off the hook for his doubting ways. I wanted it to be a "we've got to band together" moment.

Which is why in ME3 I was absolutely distraught when Shepard proceeded to be a huge douchbag to the Turian ambassador with absolutely no control over it. It's the kind of sequence that, in ME1, would absolutely have been a player-controlled sequence. That's a design choice that changed the game for the worse between ME1 and ME3. Right when you should have had the *most* control over your character, you suddenly had the least.

Autodialogue isn't about every choice having a huge ripple effect. The vast majority of it is about defining your character in a moment and in the world. It doesn't necessarily have any impact on the game, but it has a huge impact on the story of your experience with the game. That level of dialogue control is the single greatest weapon of player agency in a RPG, and when people complain about autodialogue, they complain about having that ability taken away from them.

Modifié par phimseto, 21 février 2013 - 06:11 .

[Allan Schumacher]

This is more for a few pages back, but best not get into discussion about "what is an RPG" since the term is pretty all encompassing and covers a wide range of expectations for what people like out of their games.

[Fast Jimmy]

Zkyire wrote...

Tootles FTW wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Tootles FTW wrote...

How about when a Jacob-romancing FemShep is autodialogued into congratulating her cheating boyfriend on knocking up another girl and choosing to name it after you?  HOW ABOUT THAT AS AN EXAMPLE?

It still isn't Auto-dialogue, just railroading. Just as bad in many cases, honestly, but not as easily accounted for. I don't think Gaider would be able to say "we will have just as much railroading in DA3 and we did in DA2."

Sorry, but how is it not auto-dialogue?  My Shepard is saying something without a prompt from me.  It's not based on past dialogue selections, not based on my Renegade/Paragon score, and certainly not based on my romantic involvement with Jacob - which could very well be that he cheated on me with the woman I'm now forced to congratulate him on.  You're railroaded into auto-dialogue if you choose to talk to Jacob, sure.

That's a bingo.

You have an option to say to Jacob "I'm happy for you" or "Kiss me." There's an option, its not automatically picking dialogue for you.

They aren't good options. And they don't even begin to cover the amount of reactions most people would have. But its not the same as Auto-dialogue. 

LIke I said... just as bad in many cases... but not inherently the same thing. 

[Sylvius the Mad]

Sopa de Gato wrote...

I'll take "forced emotion" over "standing there with your character's mouth gaping open and nothing coming out during every emotional scene".

But it should be up to you to decide which scenes are emotional.  Not all people have the same emotional reactions to the same things.

IanPolaris wrote...

Sure you do at least as I see it.  I don't have to be told what my character does or doesn't feel.  If I am truly into my character, that will come naturally.  It is much easier to place this natural feeling into a blank sheet than it is when the game actively tries to contradict your own characterization.

This is important.  People are often talking about, and conflating, two different issues.  First is the question of what emotions the character feels.  Second is the question of whether those emotions are expressed visibly.

I maintain that there is no necessary connection between these two things, so any failure to display an emotion does not then mean that the emotion isn't there.  This is why I have no problem at all with how DAO handled emotions.

People who prefer the DA2 approach seem to think that DAO's failure to show those emotions is a problem.  People who prefer the DAO approach seem to think that DA2's automatic assignment of an emotional state is a problem.

Sopa de Gato wrote...

Except it's never "your character". It's "your character within the confines of the options the developers give you". This myth that the voiceless games somehow gave you the ability to roleplay anyone and anything with any emotion you could dream up is just silly.

Except it's not a myth.  It's true.  We could play our own character.  We could control his emotions as we saw fit.

Why do you think we couldn't?  Yes, we were constrained in what our characters could do or say, and NPC reactions were all scripted, but anything that wasn't made explicit by the game was left for us to determine.

If the game never contradicts us, why can't we just decide whatever we'd like?  If it makes the game for fun for us, it would be foolish not to do it.

[Emzamination]

David Gaider wrote...

I understand that people who didn't like the "auto-dialogue" (as some like to call it-- I never have, and I find it a bit vague as to what people are referring to when they mention this) in ME3 might be concerned about how it's going to be done in DA3. I suppose there's always an assumption that whatever game BioWare put out last, its next game is going to follow suit even if a completely different team within the company made it. Not everyone knows that, and that's fine.

As I've said previously when the subject came up, DA3 won't use auto-dialogue any more than it previously did. If there are lines being spoken by the player without prompt, they're either "neutral" lines that occur during a cutscene ("What do you mean?") or occur as a result of something you've already chosen. There are reasons why, in fact, there might be less auto-dialogue than in DA2, but I won't go into them as that would require explanations which cannot occur yet.

If, however, you dislike the PC from ever speaking a single line you haven't directly chosen, then you've come to the wrong place. That's not going to happen.

I'm not sure what everyone else means, but Auto-dialogue for me were those same pre-recorded bark responses you get from clicking on companions. That practice started in awakening and just seemed to kick into over drive aross Me and Da. I miss the days of origins when you could click on a companion, and a conversation would open up.

[Sylvius the Mad]

David Gaider wrote...

If, however, you dislike the PC from ever speaking a single line you haven't directly chosen, then you've come to the wrong place. That's not going to happen.

Obviously, my preference would be for full text with a silent PC.  But anything that moves us back toward giving the player total control is a good move.

As such...

There are reasons why, in fact, there might be less auto-dialogue than in DA2, but I won't go into them as that would require explanations which cannot occur yet.

...this gives me hope.

[Icesong]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Zkyire wrote...

Tootles FTW wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Tootles FTW wrote...

How about when a Jacob-romancing FemShep is autodialogued into congratulating her cheating boyfriend on knocking up another girl and choosing to name it after you?  HOW ABOUT THAT AS AN EXAMPLE?

It still isn't Auto-dialogue, just railroading. Just as bad in many cases, honestly, but not as easily accounted for. I don't think Gaider would be able to say "we will have just as much railroading in DA3 and we did in DA2."

Sorry, but how is it not auto-dialogue?  My Shepard is saying something without a prompt from me.  It's not based on past dialogue selections, not based on my Renegade/Paragon score, and certainly not based on my romantic involvement with Jacob - which could very well be that he cheated on me with the woman I'm now forced to congratulate him on.  You're railroaded into auto-dialogue if you choose to talk to Jacob, sure.

That's a bingo.

You have an option to say to Jacob "I'm happy for you" or "Kiss me." There's an option, its not automatically picking dialogue for you.

They aren't good options. And they don't even begin to cover the amount of reactions most people would have. But its not the same as Auto-dialogue. 

LIke I said... just as bad in many cases... but not inherently the same thing. 

You're not talking about the same scene.

[Fast Jimmy]

Icesong wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

You have an option to say to Jacob "I'm happy for you" or "Kiss me." There's an option, its not automatically picking dialogue for you.

They aren't good options. And they don't even begin to cover the amount of reactions most people would have. But its not the same as Auto-dialogue. 

LIke I said... just as bad in many cases... but not inherently the same thing. 

You're not talking about the same scene.

Ah. Gotcha. Never saw that scene. That would be true auto-dialogue, I stand humbly corrected.