245 réponses à ce sujet

[Redbelle]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

This is more for a few pages back, but best not get into discussion about "what is an RPG" since the term is pretty all encompassing and covers a wide range of expectations for what people like out of their games.

Indeed, but I think it is fair to say that it require's a player taking on a role. And BW game's from Baulder's Gate to Kotor to ME3 have been pushing that boundary for years. So much so that, while Final Fantasy is a RPG. It is not as deeply immersive as a BW RPG that now allows you a greater depth of characterisation. By contrast FF is a flashy 'Look what I can do and isn't it COOL!' kind of game.

I think FFXIII-2 tried something similar to the Dialogue Wheel, but ultimately failed to fully deliver on it as their RPG character's have a predefined personality. BW's player character's by comparison are blank slate's with just enough history and backstory to point that character in the direction of the end game without it feeling forced.

Modifié par Redbelle, 21 février 2013 - 06:33 .

[Allan Schumacher]

I really don't understand why Final Fantasy is being brought up. I loved it (XIII and XIII-2 in particular), but they aren't RPGs. Is it relevant?

It's being brought up because I asked people to not try to define what is and is not an RPG (since those discussions never go anywhere productive), but perhaps somewhat ironically my asking people to not do so has led to people continuing to discuss what is and is not an RPG and whether or not certain games even qualify as an RPG....

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 21 février 2013 - 06:42 .

[phimseto]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I really don't understand why Final Fantasy is being brought up. I loved it (XIII and XIII-2 in particular), but they aren't RPGs. Is it relevant?

It's being brought up because I asked people to not try to define what is and is not an RPG (since those discussions never go anywhere productive), but perhaps somewhat ironically my asking people to not do so has led to people continuing to discuss what is and is not an RPG and whether or not certain games even qualify as an RPG....

Allan opens notebook, scribbles: "Lesson of the day 02/21/2013: No good deed goes unpunished."

Closes notebook.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

It's being brought up because I asked people to not try to define what is and is not an RPG (since those discussions never go anywhere productive), but perhaps somewhat ironically my asking people to not do so has led to people continuing to discuss what is and is not an RPG and whether or not certain games even qualify as an RPG....

I didn't even notice the RPG side-discussion until you pointed it out.

There's enough other good content in this thread, though, I'd hate to see it derailed.

[David Gaider]

Icesong wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

I understand that people who didn't like the "auto-dialogue" (as some like to call it-- I never have, and I find it a bit vague as to what people are referring to when they mention this)

You always have a quibble with terminology.

Of course. When you have a thread where people are actually discussing three different things, but they think they're all talking about the same thing, it gets confusing... especially if I address the issue and everyone takes what I say to relate to whatever their personal version is.

Like people talking about ME3 auto-dialogue. That's great-- but I've already stated what we're doing is based on DA2, no more. So to keep talking about ME3... okay? But really useless, unless you just want to complain about ME3, in which case the ME3 forums are that way. -->

[Knight of Dane]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I really don't understand why Final Fantasy is being brought up. I loved it (XIII and XIII-2 in particular), but they aren't RPGs. Is it relevant?

It's being brought up because I asked people to not try to define what is and is not an RPG (since those discussions never go anywhere productive), but perhaps somewhat ironically my asking people to not do so has led to people continuing to discuss what is and is not an RPG and whether or not certain games even qualify as an RPG....

"Now and then people tend to take a request not to do something as a challange to do said thing."

Don't touch the big red button and all..

[Sylvius the Mad]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Whether or not it was intended, the game supports it.

This is vital.

We know it wasn't intended.  The Lead Writer has been very clear on this.

But we also know that we could still play the game in this way.  Therefore, whether it was an intended feature clearly doesn't matter.  The feature was still there, even though it wasn't intended.

I'm reasonably confident the writers knew many of us played that way.  I personally sent a thank you note to David Gaider after DAO's release because of how well the game did support this playstyle.  At that point, it never occurred to me that this feature wasn't intended, because it was so well accommodated by BioWare's games.

[Sylvius the Mad]

n7stormrunner wrote...

also I got to ask why do people think if a character doesn't have voice there is no inherent intent in their lines? no I'm not trolling I just always assumed their was one even if I could only get it from context.

You assumed it.  That doesn't make it so.

Why did you assume it?  Persuamably because you liked playing that way.  But surely you can see that the supposed intent is not actually inherent in the line, as you cannot point to it.

The intent isn't there.  You've inferred its presence, but its presence is in no way required by the game's other systems.

Just as you always assumed the presence of an inherent intent, I have always assumed the lack of an inherent intent.  And I've done so for the same reason: because I like playing it that way.

[Redbelle]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Redbelle wrote...

BW's creation of the dialogue wheel was a great innovation to the world of RPGing as it gave player's the chance to continue developing character's. Previous RPG's only allowed you to decide what to wear/weapon's to equip/who your companion's are etc (exception's to the rule may apply but still.......)

By this statement, I feel completely validated in saying you have zero idea what you are talking about.

For one, RPGs that offered numerous, branching dialogue existed before Bioware. In addition, Bioware was making RPGs that offered way more choice than the games they currently make nearly a decade before the dialogue wheel was even invented.

So... forgive me for dismissing pretty much everything you said out of hand. 

Maybe I should expand and clarify on the above statement you picked out.

When I said 'previous RPG's', I was not referring to BW's RPG's as they do offer more in the way of allowing the player to develop their character's personality.

Also, I stated that exception's to this view may exist. And to varying degree's they do.

But let's take the Final Fantasy series...... They do not offer the option for the player to define your character through his or her responses. There are a few point's where this is possible, but not to the same degree as BW titles and so are exception's to the rule. FF follow's a different rule. The cooler the better. Fight's are outlandish clash's built around a combat system of taking turn's with sword's magic or summon's.

Breath of Fire, also does not bring to mind any key point's where a decision can be made to declare a stance, take an action, or accept/reject a POV that allow's the player to define his or her character.

Neither does Resonance of Fate, Secret of Mana, Disgaea, Grandia....etc etc. They just weren't built around constant decision making that effected who your Avatar was as a person

On the other hand Shadow of Memories could be argued to allow the player to develop their character's. Not to BW standard's but choosing who to save and what to do with the goal of living past the protag's assasination.

Other's may exist, but I think the point, which to elaborate on, stands up. BW were among the first developer's to include and make character personality as a game play mechanic, mainstream and popular.

Other game's may have tried to do the same, but I can't think of any other than previous BW titles. And previous BW title's did not use the dialogue wheel, which I stated was a great invention. (dragonage 2 had it, but that came out after ME). The branching storyline's you talk about...... I've mentioned one already and readily admit their are other's out there. But one's that use a dialogue wheel? Don't get me wrong, I like a text tree when they are done right, i.e. Don't take a screen and a half to read all the option's.

So I will forgive your dimissal on condition that in future you try and be a little nicer in your replies. If you think I'm wrong that's fine. But back it up with some example's of game's that go agains't the point I was making. I'm fine with being in the wrong and altering my stance based on new information and POV's. but calling me out and then refusing to back up your stance with example's of where I am in error is.......not helpful to discussion.

[n7stormrunner]

that seems reasonable enough. I could debate it but I really shouldn't drive this thread anymore off-topic.

[Fast Jimmy]

Redbelle wrote...
-snip-

So... because you have never played a Western RPG, you think Bioware's invention of the Wheel was the greatest thing to RPGs ever?

I would suggest playing an RPG that wasn't made from Japan. There are dozens, if not hundreds, from the past two decades. And they almost categorically offer dialogue choices and allow you to define your characters actions, personality and emotions.

Not trying to sound condescending, but it sounds like you are just speaking from a lack of experience. Fallout New Vegas, which is a modern incarnation of the original Fallout 1 and 2 in my book, sold as much or more units than DA:O or DA2 or any of the ME games according to vgchartz.com (5 million units sold). So one could say the original Fallout games made player choice/response/outcomes possible... but that would probably be wrong too, since games were offering it even before then.

The wheel is neither the invention that led to character choice, nor its introduction anywhere near the first time such choices were involved. I would be more than happy to list dozens of games which offer you the same or more choice on your character that came out before the dialogue wheel, as it sounds like you may have missed out on LOTS of good games.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 21 février 2013 - 07:14 .

[Megakoresh]

David Gaider wrote...
I understand that people who didn't like the "auto-dialogue" (as some like to call it-- I never have, and I find it a bit vague as to what people are referring to when they mention this) in ME3 might be concerned about how it's going to be done in DA3. I suppose there's always an assumption that whatever game BioWare put out last, its next game is going to follow suit even if a completely different team within the company made it. Not everyone knows that, and that's fine.

DA2 did this and then, despite the outcries, ME3 followed with the same. So you can't blame people for having such implications. They are nothing if not reasonable.

I am fine with Autodialogue, as far as it does not harm the game by taking away control from the player. For example I welcome an autodialogue when remarking a vista or some minor detail on the map. When i come to a prty member to discuss life and whatever else I might want to discuss, I do not wish for autodialogue. As I do not wish for a line like "Oh you just want to talk about me and life and chickens? Sorry, no recorded audio for that, come back after event X is completed to trigger the next dialogue" I think you get what I mean, no?

Different teams or not there is a very good saying in Russian language for this:
"A quality of a wise man is to learn from mistakes of others
A quality of a smart man is to learn from his own mistakes
A quality of a fool is not to learn from mistakes, for he is bound to repeat them."

ME3 had a lot of the same issues that DA2 had. It's only fair that they are reminded of until the game, or an official response comes out saying which mistakes of the past are acknowledged and being worked on to rectify.

[Allan Schumacher]

I would suggest playing an RPG that wasn't made from Japan. There are dozens, if not hundreds, from the past two decades. And they almost categorically offer dialogue choices and allow you to define your characters actions, personality and emotions.

Not trying to sound condescending, but it sounds like you are just speaking from a lack of experience. Fallout New Vegas, which is a modern incarnation of the original Fallout 1 and 2 in my book, sold as much or more units than DA:O or DA2 or any of the ME games according to vgchartz.com (5 million units sold). So one could say the original Fallout games made player choice/response/outcomes possible... but that would probably be wrong too, since games were offering it even before then.

The wheel is neither the invention that led to character choice, nor its introduction anywhere near the first time such choices were involved. I would be more than happy to list dozens of games which offer you the same or more choice on your character that came out before the dialogue wheel, as it sounds like you may have missed out on LOTS of good games.

To be fair, if one was primarily a console gamer (for whatever reason) many of those games would be missed (especially ones that predate Mass Effect).

[Fast Jimmy]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I would suggest playing an RPG that wasn't made from Japan. There are dozens, if not hundreds, from the past two decades. And they almost categorically offer dialogue choices and allow you to define your characters actions, personality and emotions.

Not trying to sound condescending, but it sounds like you are just speaking from a lack of experience. Fallout New Vegas, which is a modern incarnation of the original Fallout 1 and 2 in my book, sold as much or more units than DA:O or DA2 or any of the ME games according to vgchartz.com (5 million units sold). So one could say the original Fallout games made player choice/response/outcomes possible... but that would probably be wrong too, since games were offering it even before then.

The wheel is neither the invention that led to character choice, nor its introduction anywhere near the first time such choices were involved. I would be more than happy to list dozens of games which offer you the same or more choice on your character that came out before the dialogue wheel, as it sounds like you may have missed out on LOTS of good games.

To be fair, if one was primarily a console gamer (for whatever reason) many of those games would be missed (especially ones that predate Mass Effect).

That is fair.

Although, if that is the case, I'd be happy to provide that list to Redbelle, because even a low end PC (and even some phones and tablets) are able to play these games now for pennies on the dollar for what you would have paid when they came out. 

And still... it is not correct to attribute the role-playing aspects of Bioware's games to the dialogue wheel. It is a tool Bioware uses, but it is not the source nor the inspiration for character-and-choice-driven RPGs.

[AlanC9]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

So... because you have never played a Western RPG, you think Bioware's invention of the Wheel was the greatest thing to RPGs ever?

You sure the wheel didn't debut in Wing Commander 3?

[Tootles FTW]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Icesong wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

You have an option to say to Jacob "I'm happy for you" or "Kiss me." There's an option, its not automatically picking dialogue for you.

They aren't good options. And they don't even begin to cover the amount of reactions most people would have. But its not the same as Auto-dialogue. 

LIke I said... just as bad in many cases... but not inherently the same thing. 

You're not talking about the same scene.

Ah. Gotcha. Never saw that scene. That would be true auto-dialogue, I stand humbly corrected.

Ha, when I saw your first reply I was about to have a coronary.  Thanks for the link, Icesong.

As you can see from this scene, ME3 auto dialogue can be quite distressing - due to a lack of control (which is more forgiveable), or a total lack of character consistency.  No FemShep who has romanced Jacob would ever choose to congratulate that man.  As for the other scene "I understand, Jacob/Kiss me" - those options were almost worse than having Shepard say a neutral option on her own.  And again - this is from someone who never romanced Jacob, I just find it massively offensive on principle as a lady-gamer...though that extends into another topic entirely. 


EDIT - to keep this DA3 related, I have no worries at all in regards to auto dialogue.  It's never been a problem before, and even if there was more auto dialogue I trust the Bioware staff to be more tactful than the ME team.  Just my opinion.

Modifié par Tootles FTW, 21 février 2013 - 07:38 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

To be fair, if one was primarily a console gamer (for whatever reason) many of those games would be missed (especially ones that predate Mass Effect).

For console gamers, perhaps the best example of BioWare's previous approach is KotOR.  In terms of defining the PC's personality, KotOR had all the hallmarks of BioWare's earlier PC titles.

[Maverick827]

Blah blah lists blah blah wheels blah blah real RPG blah blah back in my day. Blah blah choices blah blah voiced protagonist blah blah motives blah BLAH UP TO THE PLAYER blah Baldur's Gate, Planescape: Torment, etc. Blah branching narrative blah blah freedom blah blah awesome button lolz blah blah The Witcher 2 blah EA blah blah console kiddies blah blah get off my lawn.

[Stella-Arc]

I love the auto-dialogue in DAII. It actually fit the personality I was playing. When I noticed that certain conversations in cutscenes change depending on what you choose in the dialogue wheel, I was impressed. It all felt in character. However, I never liked it when my character says religious dialogue (in certain cutscenes). I remember saying to myself that my Hawke did not believe in the Maker. Luckily it was few and far in between but it did pull me out.

The auto-dialogue in ME3 was ATROCIOUS. Why is my character being nice to these aliens if he was a **** to them all the time or why he's bashing Joker after the Thessia mission? So many instances where it just didn't fit the Shepard I was playing. DAII did a much, MUCH better job at handling auto-dialogue. I always look forward to when my character responds to her/his companions and since her/his responses are rare, it's always a treat.

And I LOVE battle cries! My favorite one is "My Warden senses are tingling!"

Modifié par Stella-Arc, 21 février 2013 - 07:45 .

[Fast Jimmy]

AlanC9 wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

So... because you have never played a Western RPG, you think Bioware's invention of the Wheel was the greatest thing to RPGs ever?

You sure the wheel didn't debut in Wing Commander 3?

This was one of the hardest choices to make in an RPG/video game.