38 réponses à ce sujet

[Chiramu]

 Ok, I know what he did. It could've been resolved in a different way but it wasn't so we just can move away from that now.

What I want to talk about is Merrill...Everyone goes on about how they absolutely hate Anders because he blew up the Chantry, but no one goes on about how they absolutely hate Merrill because she made you commit an act of genocide just for being nice to her. 

Now, genocide and a terrorist bombing are both equally bad. So why is there not as much Merrill hate as there is Anders hate? 

Merrill forces you to wipe out an entire clan, that's mothers, fathers and children. Anders blows up a Chantry full of priests and nuns. Both are bad. So why does no one cry out hate for Merrill?

Hypocrisy rules doesn't it? 

Merrill should go stand next to Hitler, they would be best of friends.

[Face of Evil]

I don't know what forum you're looking at, because I encounter quite a bit of Merrill hate here. But never mind, that's beside the point.

Merrill never asks you to kill her tribe, and she never intended that outcome when she asked you to go to Sundermount. 

Hawke doesn't even attack the elves first. They strike first. The Dalish don't even try to reason out what happened; they just jump straight to "Merrill killed the Keeper." They put aside everything that Hawke has done for them and attack Hawke, who they know to be at least strong enough to slay a varterral.

Also, Hawke doesn't slay anyone except hunters or Dalish mages. Everyone who Hawke is forced to kill in self-defence are adults capable of defending themselves. No children.

Anders intentionally engineered a massacre. He knew exactly what the outcome of his actions would be: Meredith would call for the Rite of Annulment. Anders not only murdered everyone in the Chantry, but he condemned the entire Kirkwall Circle to death simply to provoke moral outrage and spur the other Circles to rebellion. He never asked any of those mages, which may include Hawke's sister, if they were willing to be martyrs to his cause.

Modifié par Face of Evil, 21 février 2013 - 11:14 .

[LolaLei]

Killing the Dalish is preventable though, by picking the aggressive option.

... Not that I dislike either Merrill or Anders.

[Chiramu]

LolaLei wrote...

Killing the Dalish is preventable though, by picking the aggressive option.

... Not that I dislike either Merrill or Anders.

I wrote in my first post, If you're nice to her.

[Chiramu]

Face of Evil wrote...

I don't know what forum you're looking at, because I encounter quite a bit of Merrill hate here. But never mind, that's beside the point.

Merrill never asks you to kill her tribe, and she never intended that outcome when she asked you to go to Sundermount. 

Hawke doesn't even attack the elves first. They strike first. The Dalish don't even try to reason out what happened; they just jump straight to "Merrill killed the Keeper." They put aside everything that Hawke has done for them and attack Hawke, who they know to be at least strong enough to slay a varterral.

Also, Hawke doesn't slay anyone except hunters or Dalish mages. Everyone who Hawke is forced to kill in self-defence are adults capable of defending themselves. No children.

Anders intentionally engineered a massacre. He knew exactly what the outcome of his actions would be: Meredith would call for the Rite of Annulment. Anders not only murdered everyone in the Chantry, but he condemned the entire Kirkwall Circle to death simply to provoke moral outrage and spur the other Circles to rebellion. He never asked any of those mages, which may include Hawke's sister, if they were willing to be martyrs to his cause.

There is greater outcry over Anders than Merrill, especially all the Merrill love...And no one goes on about how they revel in killing Merrill, people shout "YES, I KILLED THAT BASTARD ANDERS!" but none of them go, "WHY THE **** CAN'T I KILL THAT INDECISIVE **** MERRILL?!"

Merrill doesn't ask you to kill them, but because of her indecisiveness that the Keeper dies and the clan attacks you for being nice to her. It's because she does not see what's going on around her, she did not notice that the clan was waiting for her. And through all those actions of being ignorant you commit and act of genocide.

Through ignorance and indecisiveness you commit a war crime.

Why is there no cries to kill Merrill? Or maybe genocide escapes most people...

[Face of Evil]

Merrill wasn't indecisive about anything, and I'm not sure how you get that vibe.

If you want to be angry at anyone, try venting your rage towards Keeper Marethari. She should have cared more about her clan, or at least accepted that Merrill was an adult who was willing to accept the consequences of her actions. If either of those things were true, maybe she wouldn't have made the monumentally stupid decision to allow herself to be possessed by the pride demon. If Merrill hadn't convinced Hawke to come to Sundermount that day, there would be no one to stop Audacity. All the elves would have died anyway and there would now be a powerful abomination on the loose.

The Dalish elves acted stupidly for the reasons I outlined above, but Marethari by far made the biggest blunder. Well-meaning, but still an idiot. Merrill's only guilty for not understanding that the consequences of her actions will affect people other than her.

And you can kill Merrill during The Last Straw. Perhaps you should actually check your facts before complaining.

Modifié par Face of Evil, 21 février 2013 - 08:28 .

[Sable Rhapsody]

I happen to like both of them, and never killed either. I also happen to think they're both crazy and destructive, albeit in very different ways.

crazy apostates.

[sylvanaerie]

Lack of foresight on Merrill's part is what gets her clan killed, not a deliberate act of terrorism.

The entire sequence triggers if you choose any option other than "I'll make sure Merrill doesn't hurt anyone else." It's not an aggressive option. Any personality Hawke can say it. Merrill's clan made the choice to attack Hawke and co. She didn't blast Marethari to kingdom come right in front of them to incite an unprovoked attack.

Anders does incite an unprovoked confrontation on innocents when he blows up the chantry, knowing his actions will provoke Knight Commander Crazy into attacking the mages (one of whom may be Hawke's sister), and daring Meredith, Orsino and anyone who listens to stop him. In the course of the game, he will even say "There is no one I wouldn't kill to see mages free." Good to know he's so willing to throw Hawke and his family under a bus. No one comes between him and his agenda.

And there's plenty of hate for Merrill in the threads here too, and even Anders has the support of his own legion of fans, I'm just not one of them.

Modifié par sylvanaerie, 22 février 2013 - 08:23 .

[Renmiri1]

I would go into the Anders thread for lots of Anders love and reflection about his acts.

In general is better to respect people's opinions, not go "I'll raise your Anders hate-on witha a hate-on for Merril and an Isabella". All DA2 love interests were very well written and have redeeming qualities without being perfect goody goody. So I wouldn't go on spreading the hate if you are trying to defend Anders, defend him, not add hate to Merril.

I happen to like both, and love Isabella who caused a lot of deaths with her acts, or Fenris who killed his sister.

Modifié par Renmiri1, 22 février 2013 - 08:36 .

[Sifr]

Chiramu wrote...

Merrill doesn't ask you to kill them, but because of her indecisiveness that the Keeper dies and the clan attacks you for being nice to her. It's because she does not see what's going on around her, she did not notice that the clan was waiting for her. And through all those actions of being ignorant you commit and act of genocide.

Through ignorance and indecisiveness you commit a war crime.

Why is there no cries to kill Merrill? Or maybe genocide escapes most people...

Marethari was just as culpable as Merrill was. She didn't tell the clan that she was going to set a demon free, nor she didn't tell them that it might result in her death. She was willing to sacrifice herself in order to save Merrill.

Merrill's actions may have lead her to that decision, but it was Marethari who ultimately chose to intervene in the situation. No-one asked her to do so.

A war crime by it's very nature, is defined as an act committed against a war. Likewise, it's defined as going against the articles of war, such as the unlawful slaying of non-combatants or non-belligerent forces.

Neither of these things are true.

The Dalish were armed to the teeth and baying for blood. Hawke acted in reasonable self-defence to protect themselves and the lives of their compatriots, since the Dalish were unwilling to hear out Hawke's side of the story or discuss the matter with the other members of the clan.

Furthermore, genocide is an intentional, premeditated act meant to systematically eradicate a group. Neither Merrill nor Hawke went to Sundermount, hellbent on fighting the Dalish at any point.

[Hazegurl]

I picked the option "I'll take responsibility" and the Dalish were reasonable and we walked away. You don't have to kill the Dalish, but if you do trigger it based on being nice to Merrill then it is the fault of the Dalish for stupidity thinking they can attack Hawke and Co and win. As stated before, the Keeper was the one who thought that saving one girl was more important than her own clan. Anders on the other hand plotted those deaths and knew full well the consequences of his actions. Yes, I enjoyed killing him and hope I can still kill him while siding with the mages. Seriously, not being able to kill him if I side with mages would be the only thing I would hate about picking that option.

[cleosilver]

I think a large part of the problem is that with Anders it's not the PC that's responsible for the big story-defining action but an NPC. It forces the players to simply be a witness to the story instead of having at least some control over it and this can be unsettling since, lets face it, we all want to believe the PC is the main character.

With Merrill it's the players choice to a certain extent and an optional quest.

[Dutchess]

Hazegurl wrote...

I picked the option "I'll take responsibility" and the Dalish were reasonable and we walked away. You don't have to kill the Dalish, but if you do trigger it based on being nice to Merrill then it is the fault of the Dalish for stupidity thinking they can attack Hawke and Co and win. As stated before, the Keeper was the one who thought that saving one girl was more important than her own clan. Anders on the other hand plotted those deaths and knew full well the consequences of his actions. Yes, I enjoyed killing him and hope I can still kill him while siding with the mages. Seriously, not being able to kill him if I side with mages would be the only thing I would hate about picking that option.

Killing Anders does not depend on whom you side with. He'll only refuse to fight by your side when you sided with the templars and are on the friendship path with him. Other than that all options are available to you in  both scenarios.

[-TC1989-]

Chiramu wrote...

Face of Evil wrote...

I don't know what forum you're looking at, because I encounter quite a bit of Merrill hate here. But never mind, that's beside the point.

Merrill never asks you to kill her tribe, and she never intended that outcome when she asked you to go to Sundermount. 

Hawke doesn't even attack the elves first. They strike first. The Dalish don't even try to reason out what happened; they just jump straight to "Merrill killed the Keeper." They put aside everything that Hawke has done for them and attack Hawke, who they know to be at least strong enough to slay a varterral.

Also, Hawke doesn't slay anyone except hunters or Dalish mages. Everyone who Hawke is forced to kill in self-defence are adults capable of defending themselves. No children.

Anders intentionally engineered a massacre. He knew exactly what the outcome of his actions would be: Meredith would call for the Rite of Annulment. Anders not only murdered everyone in the Chantry, but he condemned the entire Kirkwall Circle to death simply to provoke moral outrage and spur the other Circles to rebellion. He never asked any of those mages, which may include Hawke's sister, if they were willing to be martyrs to his cause.

There is greater outcry over Anders than Merrill, especially all the Merrill love...And no one goes on about how they revel in killing Merrill, people shout "YES, I KILLED THAT BASTARD ANDERS!" but none of them go, "WHY THE **** CAN'T I KILL THAT INDECISIVE **** MERRILL?!"

Merrill doesn't ask you to kill them, but because of her indecisiveness that the Keeper dies and the clan attacks you for being nice to her. It's because she does not see what's going on around her, she did not notice that the clan was waiting for her. And through all those actions of being ignorant you commit and act of genocide.

Through ignorance and indecisiveness you commit a war crime.

Why is there no cries to kill Merrill? Or maybe genocide escapes most people...

Well I'll start by saying no, I'm not an Anders fan at all, I put him to the sword for what he did. I'd put anyone in my crew to the sword for an act like that. An act of terrorism is unforgivable in my eyes.

Now for Merrill... I didn't like her either. Honestly if I could, I would have put an arrow in her face after what she did to me in the fade. Sadly all I could do was just tell her I would if she ever crossed me again. I can't remember exactly what happened with the Elven clan, but I plan on another playthrough soon. No love for Merrill coming from me.

Modifié par -TC1989-, 17 mars 2013 - 06:52 .

[Hazegurl]

Oh yeah, I like Merrill for her convictions even though I think she's an idiot. I no longer trusted her after taking her into the fade and honestly, I wish I could have given her over to the Dalish instead of fighting them. I understand taking responsibility if you gave Merrill the tool the Keeper gives to you but in a recent play through I kept it and thought that it would help matters but all Merrill did was get a pissy attitude and claim I stole it from her. wtf!? Then she still wants to go to the demon for help. *sigh*

I refused to take responsibility and had to kill the clan. Seriously, you can betray Isabella and Fenris. Your sibling can die in the deep roads and you can knife Anders but Merrill somehow gets plot armor.

Oh yeah, I hoped she would turn against me when I sided with the Templars by not picking the star dialouge. I picked the sarcastic option and she stayed with me. lol! I didn't even have her at 100% rivalry.

Modifié par Hazegurl, 17 mars 2013 - 08:15 .

[aldien]

I just finished my first romance pt with Merrill. I felt that Merrill's romance was a dud in the end. I feel her naivety masks her xenophobic feelings towards humans. It is her fear that draws her to Hawke. She is idiotic, not particularly attractive, though the dialogue would try to convince you otherwise, and I think she has a huge ego.

I am not fond of Anders either. I feel he uses Hawke. Maybe it is unintentional. However you look at it, Hawke and Anders have an unhealthy relationship. I wish Hawke had been able to convince him not to go through with his plans. No matter what you do it happens.

As far as hatred goes, Fenris seems to get more than Anders and Merrill combined. He is my favorite DA2 character but I gave up long ago trying to convince people who dislike him to see his positive qualities. *shrugs* You have to suck it up and accept people will not always see your point of view.

Modifié par aldien, 17 mars 2013 - 10:50 .

[-TC1989-]

aldien wrote...

I just finished my first romance pt with Merrill. I felt that Merrill's romance was a dud in the end. I feel her naivety masks her xenophobic feelings towards humans. It is her fear that draws her to Hawke. She is idiotic, not particularly attractive, though the dialogue would try to convince you otherwise, and I think she has a huge ego.

I am not fond of Anders either. I feel he uses Hawke. Maybe it is unintentional. However you look at it, Hawke and Anders have an unhealthy relationship. I wish Hawke had been able to convince him not to go through with his plans. No matter what you do it happens.

As far as hatred goes, Fenris seems to get more than Anders and Merrill combined. He is my favorite DA2 character but I gave up long ago trying to convince people who dislike him to see his positive qualities. *shrugs* You have to suck it up and accept people will not always see your point of view.

I hear you man, Fenris is really the punching bag of haters. He was my favorite character too. I can't even imagine what it was like for him getting the lyrium tattoos, and living in Tevinter.

[Hazegurl]

I think some people just hate Fenris cause they don't like his views on mages. I find Fenris to be not only one of the most loyal companions rival or friend but also the most reasonable on the whole Mage vs. Templar debate. Anders does nothing but make excuses for everything mages do. Even when we see them perform blood magic he'll justify it by saying "The Templars are making them desperate."

Fenris thinks that mages like Hawke (if he/she is a mage), Bethany, and Malcolm Hawke are rare while there are just too many mages willing to resort to demons etc to get their way. It's not like he is wrong.

[-TC1989-]

Hazegurl wrote...

I think some people just hate Fenris cause they don't like his views on mages. I find Fenris to be not only one of the most loyal companions rival or friend but also the most reasonable on the whole Mage vs. Templar debate. Anders does nothing but make excuses for everything mages do. Even when we see them perform blood magic he'll justify it by saying "The Templars are making them desperate."

Fenris thinks that mages like Hawke (if he/she is a mage), Bethany, and Malcolm Hawke are rare while there are just too many mages willing to resort to demons etc to get their way. It's not like he is wrong.

You are exactly correct, and you yourself are a rarity. I never hear/see someone actually say that about Anders, and I too agree completely. They always say that no matter the situation, the mage is the victim, and that Fenris is just a brooding grouch for no reason. People amaze me with the whole mage sympathy. I totally get that some mages have a reason for being "rebellious" and that some Templars deserve to be shot down. But it seems that mages are always the victims, no matter what.

[Sundance31us]

I don't hate Anders, I hate Justice/Vengeance; Anders died sometime between Awakenings and DA2.

Modifié par Sundance31us, 18 mars 2013 - 08:41 .

[Hazegurl]

-TC1989- wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

I think some people just hate Fenris cause they don't like his views on mages. I find Fenris to be not only one of the most loyal companions rival or friend but also the most reasonable on the whole Mage vs. Templar debate. Anders does nothing but make excuses for everything mages do. Even when we see them perform blood magic he'll justify it by saying "The Templars are making them desperate."

Fenris thinks that mages like Hawke (if he/she is a mage), Bethany, and Malcolm Hawke are rare while there are just too many mages willing to resort to demons etc to get their way. It's not like he is wrong.

You are exactly correct, and you yourself are a rarity. I never hear/see someone actually say that about Anders, and I too agree completely. They always say that no matter the situation, the mage is the victim, and that Fenris is just a brooding grouch for no reason. People amaze me with the whole mage sympathy. I totally get that some mages have a reason for being "rebellious" and that some Templars deserve to be shot down. But it seems that mages are always the victims, no matter what.

Thanks. Yeah I noticed how very pro-mage it is around here.

I also don't get how Fenris can be labeled a grouch or someone who needs to just get over being enslaved and tortured. He actually has more of a reason than Anders to be upset. He was possibly molested, tortured to the point of memory loss, starved, teased, outright abused systematically by mages his whole life. He's seen first hand what a society looks like when mages are allowed to rule. It's understandable that he would oppose any idea of allowing mages to just run the streets and govern themselves. If every mage was like the Hawke family he would feel bettter but sadly for every mage Hawke, Malcolm, and Bethany there are a dozen weak mages who will kill anyone for power.

[Gyrefalcon]

cleosilver wrote...

I think a large part of the problem is that with Anders it's not the PC that's responsible for the big story-defining action but an NPC. It forces the players to simply be a witness to the story instead of having at least some control over it and this can be unsettling since, lets face it, we all want to believe the PC is the main character.

With Merrill it's the players choice to a certain extent and an optional quest.

I really agree!  It's rather like the discovery of the "main" character of Suckerpunch.  It is really polarizing and causes strong reactions.  Love or hate, the game made you really feel something.

There is also the chance to dodge the bullet with Merrill, you can jump to the end game and never head back over to Sundermount.  You can not do that with Anders.  And although I would say that these 2 are mirrors of each other in action (no pun intended), Merrill does not change while Anders does.  There are a good number of people who felt betrayed by Anders because they did not get the option to decide to help or not.  With Merrill you did.  Again, it is part of having the NPC taking the story-defining action, instead of the player.  Myself, I still liked Anders.  And I hope he makes it into DA3 as himself if you let him live and Justice if you did not (so you can technically kill him again). 

[sylvanaerie]

Gyrefalcon wrote...

cleosilver wrote...

I think a large part of the problem is that with Anders it's not the PC that's responsible for the big story-defining action but an NPC. It forces the players to simply be a witness to the story instead of having at least some control over it and this can be unsettling since, lets face it, we all want to believe the PC is the main character.

With Merrill it's the players choice to a certain extent and an optional quest.

I really agree!  It's rather like the discovery of the "main" character of Suckerpunch.  It is really polarizing and causes strong reactions.  Love or hate, the game made you really feel something.

There is also the chance to dodge the bullet with Merrill, you can jump to the end game and never head back over to Sundermount.  You can not do that with Anders.  And although I would say that these 2 are mirrors of each other in action (no pun intended), Merrill does not change while Anders does.  There are a good number of people who felt betrayed by Anders because they did not get the option to decide to help or not.  With Merrill you did.  Again, it is part of having the NPC taking the story-defining action, instead of the player.  Myself, I still liked Anders.  And I hope he makes it into DA3 as himself if you let him live and Justice if you did not (so you can technically kill him again). 

Gaider has already said, dead Anders is dead Anders.  And I, for one, am glad.  He can't show up as himself EVER even if you let him live.  He can't be separated from Justice, because they are completely integrated into one entity, not even Anders knows where he ends and Justice begins in his head.  Anders will tell you they can't be separated.  If they could be I doubt he would have walked around with that thing in his head that long screwing up the person he used to be.

Frankly, as far as I'm concerned Anders died between Awakenings and DA2.  That thing Hawke meets is just the shell of a man inhabited by a Fade spirit.

[Renmiri1]

Interesting. To me Anders in DA2 showed himself as too superficial. A flirt with little care for whatever else was going on in the world. Fun to have a beer with. Empty for anything serious.

Of course he had hidden depths. If you take him to Amarantine and decide to burn the city you will see DA2 Anders. His outrage at the thought of so many innocent townsfolk dying is every bit as intense as the ranty Anders outrage we see in DA2. And in a few scenes I could see that the light flirty "not a care in the world" Anders was just a front he put up to keep the world at arms length.

In DA2 the Anders you see is someone who grew up and decided to face the world and change it. Instead of running away from the bad things, he was up to his elbows in his attempts to protect the innocent and poor. Literally.

The chantry didn't take care of the poor and the orphans and the sick and dying. Anders did. He treated everyone, mage or no mage. He cared for his world and put his life and sanity on the line many times to change the injustice he saw all around.

If that's an empty shell, I don't really know the meaning of the term "empty shell"