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[Hazegurl]

Renmiri1 wrote...

The chantry didn't take care of the poor and the orphans and the sick and dying. Anders did.

The chantry most certainly did take care of the poor, sick, and dying. They took in and offered a safe place for the towns people of Redcliffe and was shown trying to get funds and stop swindlers in Lothering. In Kirkwall, the sisters talk of feeding  and housing orphans. There is a possiblity the orphans could have been in the chantry when Anders blew it up.

[Gyrefalcon]

Gaider has already said, dead Anders is dead Anders.  And I, for one, am glad.  He can't show up as himself EVER even if you let him live.  He can't be separated from Justice, because they are completely integrated into one entity, not even Anders knows where he ends and Justice begins in his head.  Anders will tell you they can't be separated.  If they could be I doubt he would have walked around with that thing in his head that long screwing up the person he used to be.

Frankly, as far as I'm concerned Anders died between Awakenings and DA2.  That thing Hawke meets is just the shell of a man inhabited by a Fade spirit.

Well...he said if you KILLED him ANDERS was dead.  That does not mean that those who let him live will have also have him dead.  And Justice might live past Anders.  The rivalry path was about separating them, the friendship path was about binding them even closer.  But I will wait and see.  Like comic books, if you didn't see the body afterward...

[Renmiri1]

Hazegurl wrote...

Renmiri1 wrote...

The chantry didn't take care of the poor and the orphans and the sick and dying. Anders did.

The chantry most certainly did take care of the poor, sick, and dying. They took in and offered a safe place for the towns people of Redcliffe and was shown trying to get funds and stop swindlers in Lothering. In Kirkwall, the sisters talk of feeding  and housing orphans. There is a possiblity the orphans could have been in the chantry when Anders blew it up.

Not on Kirkwall

They didn't even have a safe place where kids could come for food, as two of the chanters on Act 1 lament. Kids wouldn't get near the chantry for the fear of being arrested.

PS: On Act 3 we see orphans being helped by a mage who incidentally went to the chantry for help and got incarcerated in the Gallows. No one picked up the orphans and cared for them after her arrest. Such a nice tender woman that Elthina!

Modifié par Renmiri1, 19 mars 2013 - 08:17 .

[Gyrefalcon]

Renmiri1 wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

Renmiri1 wrote...

The chantry didn't take care of the poor and the orphans and the sick and dying. Anders did.

The chantry most certainly did take care of the poor, sick, and dying. They took in and offered a safe place for the towns people of Redcliffe and was shown trying to get funds and stop swindlers in Lothering. In Kirkwall, the sisters talk of feeding  and housing orphans. There is a possiblity the orphans could have been in the chantry when Anders blew it up.

Not on Kirkwall

They didn't even have a safe place where kids could come for food, as two of the chanters on Act 1 lament. Kids wouldn't get near the chantry for the fear of being arrested.

PS: On Act 3 we see orphans being helped by a mage who incidentally went to the chantry for help and got incarcerated in the Gallows. No one picked up the orphans and cared for them after her arrest. Such a nice tender woman that Elthina!

Although the streets tended to look rather empty in DA2, the city was overrun with refuges.  I'm sure their resources were stretched trying to help people.  Add that the desperate were increasing the amount of crime and thus drawing the disdain and ire of the city guards and the templars, Elthina was unlikely to be able to keep up.  There was also the unknown influence of the dark entity imprisoned below them that was corrupting the otherwise good-hearts of the people of Kirkwall.  The town was set to explode.  Anders wound up the convenient match.  I do wonder what alternative storyline would have occurred if he had not been the one to set things into motion.  Meridith would have gone off for certain, but whom else would have been pulled in I wonder?

Although Anders got levered in for the major plot device, I like to tell people that part of the enjoyment of DA2 is that your friends are all boneheads.  And they don't stop being boneheads just because you try to have a heart-to-heart talk.  Merrill stays obsessed with her mirror, Fenris has a personal meltdown and wants to kill his own family (he implodes rather than explodes), Isabella had no problem letting half of Kirkwall get killed, including the Vicount, to chase after the Quanari book (which could have ended a lot sooner and with less bloodshed if she had confided in you at any point in 3 years), and there is no turning Anders from his obsession with freeing mages.  At least he tried other methods first, the underground railroad, pamphlets, helping people so they would see the good side of mages, I can't say that any of the other 3 saw beyond themselves until it was too late.  Thus, it probably hurt a lot more to see Anders lose it and go for the big, red button solution.

[-TC1989-]

Gyrefalcon wrote...

Renmiri1 wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

Renmiri1 wrote...

The chantry didn't take care of the poor and the orphans and the sick and dying. Anders did.

The chantry most certainly did take care of the poor, sick, and dying. They took in and offered a safe place for the towns people of Redcliffe and was shown trying to get funds and stop swindlers in Lothering. In Kirkwall, the sisters talk of feeding  and housing orphans. There is a possiblity the orphans could have been in the chantry when Anders blew it up.

Not on Kirkwall

They didn't even have a safe place where kids could come for food, as two of the chanters on Act 1 lament. Kids wouldn't get near the chantry for the fear of being arrested.

PS: On Act 3 we see orphans being helped by a mage who incidentally went to the chantry for help and got incarcerated in the Gallows. No one picked up the orphans and cared for them after her arrest. Such a nice tender woman that Elthina!

Although the streets tended to look rather empty in DA2, the city was overrun with refuges.  I'm sure their resources were stretched trying to help people.  Add that the desperate were increasing the amount of crime and thus drawing the disdain and ire of the city guards and the templars, Elthina was unlikely to be able to keep up.  There was also the unknown influence of the dark entity imprisoned below them that was corrupting the otherwise good-hearts of the people of Kirkwall.  The town was set to explode.  Anders wound up the convenient match.  I do wonder what alternative storyline would have occurred if he had not been the one to set things into motion.  Meridith would have gone off for certain, but whom else would have been pulled in I wonder?

Although Anders got levered in for the major plot device, I like to tell people that part of the enjoyment of DA2 is that your friends are all boneheads.  And they don't stop being boneheads just because you try to have a heart-to-heart talk.  Merrill stays obsessed with her mirror, Fenris has a personal meltdown and wants to kill his own family (he implodes rather than explodes), Isabella had no problem letting half of Kirkwall get killed, including the Vicount, to chase after the Quanari book (which could have ended a lot sooner and with less bloodshed if she had confided in you at any point in 3 years), and there is no turning Anders from his obsession with freeing mages.  At least he tried other methods first, the underground railroad, pamphlets, helping people so they would see the good side of mages, I can't say that any of the other 3 saw beyond themselves until it was too late.  Thus, it probably hurt a lot more to see Anders lose it and go for the big, red button solution.

I'll give you Merrill and Isabela, Isabela only cared for that book the entire game. I can't say I agree about Fenris. His entire life was laid out for him to kiss the feet of a Magister. He was tortured, and every other thing you can imagine. He never tried to live any different or take any other path in life because he doesn't understand the meaning of free will, and living his own way. It amazes me that people think he's just some emo unstable elf that should just get over himself (I'm speaking from the general hate on him). He finally finds his sister, that he never knew he had, and then go figure she sets him up.

[Hazegurl]

Fenris was never allowed to live his own life because during those years he was still on the run from his former master. Unlike Anders who complained about the nonexistent Templars outside his clinic, Fenris gets ambushed by slavers. At least you can talk Fenris down from killing his sister but you can't stop Anders from blowing up the Chantry. He even uses Hawke in the end for his own means. What makes me wonder about Anders is why he chose to even stay in Kirkwall after killing Karl. He could have gone back to Fereldan.

I agree about Isabela and Merrill. I love Isabela and can't help but Friend path her but the woman is a selfish b*tch. That's why I like destroying her chances at getting a ship.

[-TC1989-]

Hazegurl wrote...

Fenris was never allowed to live his own life because during those years he was still on the run from his former master. Unlike Anders who complained about the nonexistent Templars outside his clinic, Fenris gets ambushed by slavers. At least you can talk Fenris down from killing his sister but you can't stop Anders from blowing up the Chantry. He even uses Hawke in the end for his own means. What makes me wonder about Anders is why he chose to even stay in Kirkwall after killing Karl. He could have gone back to Fereldan.

I agree about Isabela and Merrill. I love Isabela and can't help but Friend path her but the woman is a selfish b*tch. That's why I like destroying her chances at getting a ship.

I always friend Isabela too, really only because I always want da money. She just happens to be with me at those times, besides I think she likes my sarcastic smart ass liners.

I never really thought about Karl actually... I know Anders was trying to live his life away from the Wardens, but I can't recall him having a real reason for staying. I guess because he knew the tension was worse there in Kirkwall and wanted to "help" the situation?

With Fenris.. I try to help him live a normal life by just being a friend to him. But when it came to Hadriana and his sister, I always let him make the call. His life has been shattered and if he wants to get revenge... I say go for it man.

As for Merrill... she just irritates me.

Modifié par -TC1989-, 20 mars 2013 - 04:49 .

[Renmiri1]

Hazegurl wrote...

. What makes me wonder about Anders is why he chose to even stay in Kirkwall after killing Karl. He could have gone back to Fereldan.

He is in love with Hawke. Even if you refuse him he still has a crush on you and stays by your side for 7 years,


Also, as Greyfalcon says above, the city was a powder keg and was going to explode. By taking the first step Anders saved the lives of some mages, enough so that they later told the story of what happened on Kirkwall,

Had you been sucessful in stopping Anders, Meredith would snap and use the Right of Annulment, she had already sent for that, before Anders got any Drakestone or Sela Petrae. Like many a circle wiped out by Anulment, the only people left to tell the story would be templars. No one would know any different.

Modifié par Renmiri1, 20 mars 2013 - 05:01 .

[Hazegurl]

-TC1989- wrote...

I always friend Isabela too, really only because I always want da money. She just happens to be with me at those times, besides I think she likes my sarcastic smart ass liners.

I never really thought about Karl actually... I know Anders was trying to live his life away from the Wardens, but I can't recall him having a real reason for staying. I guess because he knew the tension was worse there in Kirkwall and wanted to "help" the situation?

With Fenris.. I try to help him live a normal life by just being a friend to him. But when it came to Hadriana and his sister, I always let him make the call. His life has been shattered and if he wants to get revenge... I say go for it man.

As for Merrill... she just irritates me.

Oh yeah, I love picking the reward options whenever possible. My Hawke is always like "Just pay me" which is why I hardly get along with Aveline. She wants some sort of honor code from a poor Hawke who is trying to get enough money to make a better life for his family.

I can believe that about Anders. Staying in a powder keg environment where he can make a "difference" seemed like his plan.  He did have some perks because of his friendship with Hawke. Like keeping Templars off his back.

Renmiri1 wrote: 
He is in love with Hawke. Even if you refuse him he still has a crush on you and stays by your side for 7 years,

Had
you been sucessful in stopping Anders, Meredith would snap and use the
Right of Annulment, she had already sent for that, before Anders got any
Drakestone or Sela Petrae. Like many a circle wiped out by Anulment,
the only people left to tell the story would be templars. No one would
know any different.

I see Anders as more obsessed than in love, although by the way he uses Hawke I doubt his feelings were ever genuine.  I find it funny that Anders wants to critisize Hawke's choice in a lover (Fenris, in my case) based on him possibly betraying him/her while he is in the process of outright lying and betraying Hawke himself. 

Also, if Hawke could have stopped Anders, then a bunch of innocent people wouldn't have to lose their lives and Meredith would have no grounds to stand on for a RoA. Anders just wanted to make a statement like most terrorists.

[aldien]

Even if Anders had changed his mind about blowing up the Chantry, I believe Orsino would have involved Hawke if Meredith invoked the right of annulment and that is a big if. The difference is then that Hawke was not put in a position by her/his supposed friend to make a life changing decision that affected not only Anders, but all of Hawke's friends. That's how selfish Ander's action is. All of Hawke's friends will lose the stability of their lives and homes if Hawke supports the mages. If Hawke chooses to kill Anders he becomes a martyr (in his mind anyway) He gets his way no matter what you do. That's not friendship. It is using someone as a means to an end.

He didn't blow up the Chantry to help the mages. He did it because he think he knows best. I didn't see any mages standing by his side supporting his decision. If anything it is the complete opposite. Meredith would have eventually been taken down. Cullen, I think was close to relieving her of duty before Anders blew up the Chantry. Don't forget that some mages want the Circle, but Anders took that decision out of their hands too.

Anders, I think didn't go back to Fereldan because he feared the wardens catching up with him. He also used Darktown as a cover. Sure, he helped people but I noticed those people were protecting him. It wasn't a selfless act.

As for Fenris... if anyone deserved to be selfish in the game it was him. But he really isn't. He admits that he needs help, he admits that he can't do it alone and he never lies to Hawke. Not once. Sure, he is outspoken but I appreciate that in a person more than someone telling me what I want hear or lying to me. Unlike Anders, he really is being hunted and actively. But he is also open to change and you can help him see past his hatred. By act 3, if he is a friend or even fully rivaled he is very balanced as a person considering.

[Hazegurl]

This is another reason why I can't support mages. You ruin your friends lives. Aveline loses her position as guard captain if she joins you. Who knows what happens to Donnic. If Fenris makes the choice not to join you he loses his life. Sebastian threatens future war with Kirkwall. Like this place needs another war. Varric loses his comfortable life at the Hanged Man. I don't even count Isabela and Merrill as Merrill wasn't that happy in the alienage and when things get too rough Isabela will just high tail it to her ship and be half way around the world.

I also agree about Fenris. I found him to be very straight forward and honest. He really needed help and asks for it, even on a rival path. He understands that he may not have a right to even ask but he needs your help. He doesn't lie and scheme like Anders and Fenris even admits that not all mages are bad or weak minded. That's very open minded thinking from someone who had been abused by mages. Yet Anders wants to tell Hawke that he should pick someone more open minded while he's lying and plotting to blow up the Chantry. LOL!!

I also find it insulting for Anders to blow up the Chantry if Hawke is a mage. Here we have a mage walking around free and demon free and helping everyone he can, making a big difference in Kirkwall. The people look up to him and respect him and even wish for him to be Viscount. Changing their belief in the whole "magic should serve man and never rule over him" stuff. The grand cleric, who would never just approve of a RoA as she was having secret talks with Orsino, and probably would not have barred a mage Hawke from the role as Viscount, is dead. I swear a knife in the back is too good for Anders.

[-TC1989-]

aldien wrote...

He didn't blow up the Chantry to help the mages. He did it because he think he knows best. I didn't see any mages standing by his side supporting his decision. If anything it is the complete opposite. Meredith would have eventually been taken down. Cullen, I think was close to relieving her of duty before Anders blew up the Chantry. Don't forget that some mages want the Circle, but Anders took that decision out of their hands too.

That is an interesting take on it. I never really thought of that honestly. No one seemed to support his decision, and I also believe that Anders knew no one would take his side (not counting Hawke and the rest of the crew). The chantry scene was an act only he himself saw as a positive, and that in itself show how much of a sociapath he is. If I remember too he even talks about how he'll be remembered for this act, and that other mages will be inspired and look up to his example. That tells me that he was only in it for the glory, and that he wanted his 15 minutes of fame at the cost of all the lives in the Circle, let alone all the people he slaughtered still in the Chantry.

[Renmiri1]

Well one thing we can all agree is that Anders, Fenris, Meredith and others were extremely well written. Is amazing to me how many people can see different nuances for every DA2 character. We never had to wonder who Alistair, Zevran, etc were or what they were all about in DAO.

I love DA2 for that.

[paShadoWn]

Merrill is a cruel, deceitful manipulative b1tch. And a blood mage. So is Anders. Gay abomination. Well, all companions use Hawke for their own ends, thats how alliance works anyway, but at least Isabella Varric and others are honest about that, not using foul pretensions of cuteness. Hawke himself is a honest mercenary, slaughtering for fun and profit which i appreciate, and Merrill with Anders both go out of this character. And both are trying to play Hawke for fool. I have personal issues with that. I do not hate them though.