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[Fast Jimmy]

Sith Grey Warden wrote...

Didn't they say that the announcement of DA3's existence was because some important people had left Bioware, and they needed to reassure everyone they were still continuing? I seem to remember Laidlaw making a post about that. Anyway, I find the lack of information encouraging. It shows a shift in their strategy from the super-special-awesome-mega-hype campaign of DA2 and ME3, and I hope it means they'll let the game speak more for itself.

Yes, Ray and Greg, founders of Bioware and leaders for over a decade, both left at the same exact time a few months ago (Fall 2012). Very big news and very concerning to many people, so they tried to distract everyone with the announcement that DA3 was being made (not really a huge secret, honestly, given things like the leaked survey).

And I like that they aren't ramping up the marketing hype train to insane proportions. We are not all young adolescents that need to be distracted and dazzled by gore, glitz and gals... and even young adolescents should not be pandered to shamelessly, but approached and engaged as human beings with an IQ over 60.

It doesn't mean that I like the developers working in a bunker, completely separating themselves from the world and the product they are making. Its like the exact opposite of what you see on successful Kickstarter sites, which keep fans abreast of even the most mundane of developments and even change course on their ideas based on what fans think. Instead, it is like Bioware is not letting anyone see what they are making until its too late to change anything if people really don't like it. 

Just my opinion, that's all. I get why they are doing all of it (avoidining pre-release promises, lettting the game speak for itself instead of hype and dodging any next-gen questions they aren't cleared to answer at this time) but it is still unfortunate that they really cut the fans off from the development process, instead of asking for an outside perspective on things. Not that they NEED to... but such input could easily help find big flaws early on that the team themselves may be blind to.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 21 février 2013 - 03:14 .

[David Gaider]

horacethegrey wrote...
Aside from the announcement of the game in December and some sporadic updates, there hasn't been much promotional media regarding DA3.

Meanwhile, here's CDProjekt, who's been releasing a bunch of candid interviews about The Witcher 3 through Game Informer. So far they've released screenshots, revealed a number of game features and teased on the story. All in all, they've managed to satisfy the curiosity of Witcher fans like myself.

But wait a minute, I'm a Dragon Age fan as well. So where are the news? Where are the screenshots? Where be the interviews? Come on Bioware, you want us to buy your game, keeo us informed.

DA3 has been announced. We have not yet, however, done the game's reveal... the part where we show it off and talk about it. The Witcher 3 did both (albeit their reveal has been of limited scope), and that's great for them. Companies will do it differently.

Our hand was a bit forced in DA3's case, but until the reveal you're simply not going to hear much about it from us. The moment we start talking about it, fans are going to want to know everything, so we'll wait until we can show something that answers as many questions as it prompts. If you're impatient, then tune out and wait until the reveal happens. We're not asking you to buy the game at the moment, or even think about it. Once the reveal happens, that will change rather quickly I'm sure.

[horacethegrey]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Just my opinion, that's all. I get why they are doing all of it (avoidining pre-release promises, lettting the game speak for itself instead of hype and dodging any next-gen questions they aren't cleared to answer at this time) but it is still unfortunate that they really cut the fans off from the development process, instead of asking for an outside perspective on things. Not that they NEED to... but such input could easily help find big flaws early on that the team themselves may be blind to.

Which is why I appreciate what CDProjekt is doing with their prerelease campaign for The Witcher 3. At least we get to know what they're up to and can provide input.

The silence on Bioware's end is somewhat disconcerting though. I understand their reluctance because of all the fan outrage regarding DA2 and ME3. But couldn't they manage to give a little peek into what they're doing so that we can be assured and perhaps give our own input?

[horacethegrey]

David Gaider wrote...

horacethegrey wrote...
snip

DA3 has been announced. We have not yet, however, done the game's reveal... the part where we show it off and talk about it. The Witcher 3 did both (albeit their reveal has been of limited scope), and that's great for them. Companies will do it differently.

Our hand was a bit forced in DA3's case, but until the reveal you're simply not going to hear much about it from us. The moment we start talking about it, fans are going to want to know everything, so we'll wait until we can show something that answers as many questions as it prompts. If you're impatient, then tune out and wait until the reveal happens. We're not asking you to buy the game at the moment, or even think about it. Once the reveal happens, that will change rather quickly I'm sure.

Okay. Thanks for the heads up then Mr. Gaider.

[David Gaider]

Fast Jimmy wrote...
I would have thought that, if anything, Bioware would want more feedback not just of past games, but the game in actual development while they still have time to course-correct.

Fans are not, however, part of the development process.

And I say that carefully, because of course you are-- to an extent. Feedback is invaluable, and we've been collecting it for a long time now. But if you're looking for an equal seat at the table, as in we come here and talk about what we've been thinking and asking for suggestions and so forth of the development-in-progress... no, that's not going to happen, not until the reveal occurs at the very least, as it's impossible for us to ask for feedback without also explaining what it is we're doing. No doubt we will ask for feedback after the reveal, but it will be on select things that are still up in the air. The fundamental game design is not, however, up for debate outside of the development team.

And before anyone suggests it: no, I'm not saying that's the only way it can be done. Nor is it something I have input into; I'm simply explaining how it is (and pretty much how it has always been with how BioWare works).

[David Gaider]

SilverMoonDragon wrote...
It's the calm before the storm....yes it is painful to wait for DA3 info , but once those flood gates open, once the pressure cooker bursts...us fans will be squeeing and discussing all the delicious info until the game comes out, it's gonna be AWESOME! And worth waiting for 

Hopefully. What typically happens is that fans are starved for information and complain (I won't even mention the years-long period that was the dry spell prior to DAO's reveal) and then, when the reveal occurs and the marketing machine kicks into overdrive, they instead pay attention to every piece of information that's released and complain that they've already heard about it.

Such is the Circle of Life in these parts, I think.

[kathic]

We only want to know because we love you David. Don't you love us too? If you did you would announce that you secretly finished the game and sent us all a copy!

[Darth Death]

Even if BioWare did an interview announcing new info regarding DA3, I'm sure there'll be people refusing to believe in anything said by BioWare. They've a history commenting on aspects not quite translating in their upcoming games. If BioWare is going to make a statement, do so visibly.

[Fast Jimmy]

David Gaider wrote...

horacethegrey wrote...
Aside from the announcement of the game in December and some sporadic updates, there hasn't been much promotional media regarding DA3.

Meanwhile, here's CDProjekt, who's been releasing a bunch of candid interviews about The Witcher 3 through Game Informer. So far they've released screenshots, revealed a number of game features and teased on the story. All in all, they've managed to satisfy the curiosity of Witcher fans like myself.

But wait a minute, I'm a Dragon Age fan as well. So where are the news? Where are the screenshots? Where be the interviews? Come on Bioware, you want us to buy your game, keeo us informed.

DA3 has been announced. We have not yet, however, done the game's reveal... the part where we show it off and talk about it. The Witcher 3 did both (albeit their reveal has been of limited scope), and that's great for them. Companies will do it differently.

Our hand was a bit forced in DA3's case, but until the reveal you're simply not going to hear much about it from us. The moment we start talking about it, fans are going to want to know everything, so we'll wait until we can show something that answers as many questions as it prompts. If you're impatient, then tune out and wait until the reveal happens. We're not asking you to buy the game at the moment, or even think about it. Once the reveal happens, that will change rather quickly I'm sure.

I really do get this idea, honestly. And I wouldn't even say I am impatient about what the game will be like.

I'm more concerned with being able to provide feedback before the game is set in stone. 

Some of the more common complaints on DA2 were the reused environments, the wave combat, the inability to change companion armor and choices not really feeling like they resulted in truly different outcomes.

There was no way you could have forseen these being issues from the critiques of DA:O alone, since most people did not perceive these issues exisitng in DA:O. Similarly, more unique environments, more subtle use of the wave mechanic and companion armor were never touted as strong elements of DA:O's design, that you could at least say "okay, here is something the fans really liked about last game, so we'll make sure we bring it back."

So looking at only critiques or praise of a previous game does not always help identify problems or points of concern in a new one. That's why I always think it is great when developers realize that working on a game every day, for years on end, can sometimes make their view on things way too close up and not see the 40,000 foot perspective. 

Showing off something while it is still being developed and allowing a fan to ask "hey, what if" or "does this mean" often results in rabid fan foaming at the mouth, but occassionaly it also brings a question to the table that a developer never thought of, but which could be a big impact to the final experience. 

If some outcriers of ME3 could have played the game's ending six months before it was finalized, I think the ME team could have put some of the elements they included in the Extended Cut in the original product and avoided at least some of the nuclear fallout that came out of it. Instead, they kept every little nuance of the game's overall plot of how Shepherd would fight the Repaers under wraps and it resulted in fan outcry which is still bubbling and active today.

Fan input, even into little things like the environments or basic combat, can be helpful in avoiding mistakes that look obvious in hindsight, but which are not picked up on during the normal development process. I'm just a little leery that the game won't be viewed in any of its forms until it is mere months or weeks from being out the door, meaning any feedback given is going to be entirely too late to be of any use to anyone.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 21 février 2013 - 03:59 .

[LinksOcarina]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

t1striker wrote...

On topic i believe bioware didn't show much of the first dragon age till it was close to release also so maybe a good sign. Or there just wanting to make a real good first impression.

Dragon Age: Origins was first announced and shown teasers in 2004. It did not come out until 2009. They had more information out five years before their game was released than DA3 does nine months before its release.

If DA3 really does have a release date of Holiday 2013, that means the game will likely go Gold (meaning all work except DLC will be complete) roughly three months before that.

That means the game has to be DONE by August/September. Yet Bioware feels they don't have anything to show us yet? Five/six months before the game has to be done in a 2 1/2, 3 year dev cycle?

That's... a little scary.

EDIT:

Also, seeing Tweets from developers who are saying they are just now making their first bits of content is cool... until you think that they have to have ALL content done in 5/6/7 months from now. Is that enough time? I'd be curious to know how much of DA2's dev cycle was spent on developing content. 

Not to say all content is just now being developed for DA3... but at the same time, I would have expected everyone who was going to be making actual content (not engine or system work, but actual in-game content) to already be in full swing...? But that may be my ignorance talking.

I think you are presuming a bit much on that holiday release date, which is still a soft date at this time. 

Right now, the estimate is about 2 and a half years of development (likely in the thick of production still) with a pre-production stage and development already underway. We know they are doing mokap based on images a few months so chances are there will be fresh animations done for combat purposes, so my guess is that was recently impelmented into the engine. 

We also know they have a lot of concept art floating around right now. The question is how much of this is translated into actual video for the game. Lastly, if the PS4 announcement was anything to sneeze at, chances are the game is being developed on the Wii U, PS4 and whatever Xbox is cooking up, as per rumors. So that would extend the longevity of the development and would likely be embargoed under wraps until the consoles reveal themselves.

I figure by E3 we will get something, and I figure that the game will be a year or two out, so 2014 the earliest. Just a guess, but well see. 

[MerinTB]

Well, I'm okay with the silence. I kind of just want DA3 to appear, maybe see a bit of footage and some unbiased reviews (as unbiased as they can be - you know, listing features and playstyle and such without injected too much of the reviewers personality and lack of sense of humor, a la Cracked or Zero Punctuation, into the review) to give me an idea of how it'll play--and then hope that my secret wish, the one where DA2 will go down in history as the Red Guard or Battelspire of the Dragon Age series of games, can come true.

[Fast Jimmy]

LinksOcarina wrote...

I think you are presuming a bit much on that holiday release date, which is still a soft date at this time. 

...

I figure by E3 we will get something, and I figure that the game will be a year or two out, so 2014 the earliest. Just a guess, but well see. 

Mike Laidlaw and others have stated on Twitter that the 2013 Holiday release is still the target. And that the game will not be delayed from that point because of next gen consoles, but would if it were due to the quality of the game. 

Its not an "official" date, but it is the date that official people are stating. Its not just a rumor, even if its not written in stone.

[Fast Jimmy]

MerinTB wrote...

Well, I'm okay with the silence. I kind of just want DA3 to appear, maybe see a bit of footage and some unbiased reviews (as unbiased as they can be - you know, listing features and playstyle and such without injected too much of the reviewers personality and lack of sense of humor, a la Cracked or Zero Punctuation, into the review) to give me an idea of how it'll play--and then hope that my secret wish, the one where DA2 will go down in history as the Red Guard or Battelspire of the Dragon Age series of games, can come true.

...which would make Inquisition the Morrowind of the DA franchise? That's a pretty high moniker to live up to.

[LinksOcarina]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

I think you are presuming a bit much on that holiday release date, which is still a soft date at this time. 

...

I figure by E3 we will get something, and I figure that the game will be a year or two out, so 2014 the earliest. Just a guess, but well see. 

Mike Laidlaw and others have stated on Twitter that the 2013 Holiday release is still the target. And that the game will not be delayed from that point because of next gen consoles, but would if it were due to the quality of the game. 

Its not an "official" date, but it is the date that official people are stating. Its not just a rumor, even if its not written in stone.

I never said it was a rumor. That said its still a soft date since its a target date. Honestly though, the consoles coming in will be an issue regardless of development at this time, not to impune anything in Laidlaws words though. I also think that a delay at this point is almost inevitable if they are shooting for 2013. We shall see. 

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

like the meaningfulness and artistic merit of this piece:

4′33″

BS! 

[LinksOcarina]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Daralii wrote...

Oh boy, another Bioware v CDProjekt thread, this will go places.

+100

In related news, there's another game that I've heard hardly nothing about that's slated for release this fall: Watch Dogs. Seriously, not even promotional material.

So it isn't all that unusual.

To be fair though weve seen videos of Watch Dogs, enough videos to get a feel for it.

If BioWare is waiting for something similar with Inquisition I don't mind that either though, of course. 

[MerinTB]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

MerinTB wrote...
Well, I'm okay with the silence. I kind of just want DA3 to appear, maybe see a bit of footage and some unbiased reviews (as unbiased as they can be - you know, listing features and playstyle and such without injected too much of the reviewers personality and lack of sense of humor, a la Cracked or Zero Punctuation, into the review) to give me an idea of how it'll play--and then hope that my secret wish, the one where DA2 will go down in history as the Red Guard or Battelspire of the Dragon Age series of games, can come true.

...which would make Inquisition the Morrowind of the DA franchise? That's a pretty high moniker to live up to.

Does that make DA:O into Arena or Daggerfall, or both somehow?  I'd vote for Daggerfall!

...

It's not a perfect analogy.

[mousestalker]

Not that any one has asked, or even that my opinion matters much, but what I would like is for the people making the game to remain relatively silent until they can be certain as to when the game will release and have at least an alpha model running. At that point, do a release announcement with a huge glorious info dump followed a month or so later by a character creator and demo.

Then again I like free toys, so go figure.

Modifié par mousestalker, 21 février 2013 - 04:38 .

[Commander Kurt]

Fast Jimmy wrote...


I really do get this idea, honestly. And I wouldn't even say I am impatient about what the game will be like.

I'm more concerned with being able to provide feedback before the game is set in stone. 

Some of the more common complaints on DA2 were the reused environments, the wave combat, the inability to change companion armor and choices not really feeling like they resulted in truly different outcomes.

There was no way you could have forseen these being issues from the critiques of DA:O alone, since most people did not perceive these issues exisitng in DA:O. Similarly, more unique environments, more subtle use of the wave mechanic and companion armor were never touted as strong elements of DA:O's design, that you could at least say "okay, here is something the fans really liked about last game, so we'll make sure we bring it back."

So looking at only critiques or praise of a previous game does not always help identify problems or points of concern in a new one. That's why I always think it is great when developers realize that working on a game every day, for years on end, can sometimes make their view on things way too close up and not see the 40,000 foot perspective. 

Showing off something while it is still being developed and allowing a fan to ask "hey, what if" or "does this mean" often results in rabid fan foaming at the mouth, but occassionaly it also brings a question to the table that a developer never thought of, but which could be a big impact to the final experience. 

If some outcriers of ME3 could have played the game's ending six months before it was finalized, I think the ME team could have put some of the elements they included in the Extended Cut in the original product and avoided at least some of the nuclear fallout that came out of it. Instead, they kept every little nuance of the game's overall plot of how Shepherd would fight the Repaers under wraps and it resulted in fan outcry which is still bubbling and active today.

Fan input, even into little things like the environments or basic combat, can be helpful in avoiding mistakes that look obvious in hindsight, but which are not picked up on during the normal development process. I'm just a little leery that the game won't be viewed in any of its forms until it is mere months or weeks from being out the door, meaning any feedback given is going to be entirely too late to be of any use to anyone.

But, Jimmy, what you're asking for is consumer testing, not media presence (unless you're suggesting a trailer where they show the ending and focus on the crafting system and menues). Also, are you sure they didn't do that with DA2 and ME3? I'm pretty sure they HAVE been showing DA3 to fans, wasn't there talk about that in the Twitter thread? If you lived in Edmonton you could sign up and hopefully be selected to sneak a peek or somesuch nonsense of which I am certainly not jealous.

They're actually here almost every day collecting fan feedback, but they're the professionals and they have to go with their gut and their experience. Putting info out there for our judgement could never end well (the protag should be voiced but silent, romances should be gay, bi and straight (but NOT all of them), and the game would never ever have enough slides).

Modifié par Commander Kurt, 21 février 2013 - 04:37 .

[LinksOcarina]

Fair point, fair point.

I wonder though...