532 réponses à ce sujet

[nightscrawl]

n7stormrunner wrote...

you could also try brooding it is not as fun, but it can be done any where at anytime...

I've heard from a very reliable source that brooding is a sport in Tevinter.

[Sanunes]

Commander Kurt wrote...

It is really interesting about Kickstarter. I actually do have a MBA in marketing and I really look forward to seeing the results of the fans effectively turning into investors. I suspect much of the rage and entitlement we see in the gaming industry stems from this model of developers keeping fans in the loop during planning and production and maintaining an unusually strong connection with the consumers. It's pretty much unheard of in other industries, even within the entertainment segment, and I wonder if demands and expectations will rise or fall when involving the fans even further.

Exciting times, for sure.

I have helped fund three Kickstarter games and the boards turn nasty because the players believe they have the right to tell the developer what to do, or they get extremely upset if its not exactly like they envisioned.  It will be interesting when DoubleFine Adventure and Project Eternity are finished and the reaction to the final product is from the people that invested in them, both positive and negative.

[Renmiri1]

Banner saga is pretty fun

[bEVEsthda]

I have many paranoid fantasies about why they are so silent. Many of them seeming to be confirmed now and then.
But I think it's the right thing to be silent, because if they fed me any attempt at descriptions of details, I'd immediately interpret it the very worst way, now convinced my paranoid fantasies were fully confirmed.

I think the fair deal is to see it and judge it in whole, fitted together. And also judge it's quality and worth as DA3, a new game, not how it compares to DA:O, DA2, TW2, ES:V. Sure we can compare, but not measure the game by comparisons.

So I mostly manage to keep my mouth firmly closed on my paranoid fantasies, now.

[Fiddzz]

Sanunes wrote...

Commander Kurt wrote...

It is really interesting about Kickstarter. I actually do have a MBA in marketing and I really look forward to seeing the results of the fans effectively turning into investors. I suspect much of the rage and entitlement we see in the gaming industry stems from this model of developers keeping fans in the loop during planning and production and maintaining an unusually strong connection with the consumers. It's pretty much unheard of in other industries, even within the entertainment segment, and I wonder if demands and expectations will rise or fall when involving the fans even further.

Exciting times, for sure.

I have helped fund three Kickstarter games and the boards turn nasty because the players believe they have the right to tell the developer what to do, or they get extremely upset if its not exactly like they envisioned.  It will be interesting when DoubleFine Adventure and Project Eternity are finished and the reaction to the final product is from the people that invested in them, both positive and negative.

That's the double edged sword of kickstarting games, because you could make a VERY valid argument that the fans actually do have the right to tell a developer what to do.  It's their money that is directly funding the game.  And investors expect returns on their investments.

I'm also very interested in watching what happens with these.  How will the reactions be from fans when these games get released.  What happens if a game gets delayed?  Or cancled after a year of development? or all the other wonderfully fun things that happen with game development. Exciting times indeed.

[LinksOcarina]

Sanunes wrote...

Commander Kurt wrote...

It is really interesting about Kickstarter. I actually do have a MBA in marketing and I really look forward to seeing the results of the fans effectively turning into investors. I suspect much of the rage and entitlement we see in the gaming industry stems from this model of developers keeping fans in the loop during planning and production and maintaining an unusually strong connection with the consumers. It's pretty much unheard of in other industries, even within the entertainment segment, and I wonder if demands and expectations will rise or fall when involving the fans even further.

Exciting times, for sure.

I have helped fund three Kickstarter games and the boards turn nasty because the players believe they have the right to tell the developer what to do, or they get extremely upset if its not exactly like they envisioned.  It will be interesting when DoubleFine Adventure and Project Eternity are finished and the reaction to the final product is from the people that invested in them, both positive and negative.

That is only part of the double-edged sword of kickstarter in this regard.

Honestly, fans investing in it have little say because their money is already locked up, unless there is something legally binding in the contract (I.E, stuff was stolen by the company) that will get them back. Voicing their opinion is good but, well, Wasteland 2 had issues with that earlier, and I must admit after paying 50 bucks for Project Eternity I am starting to have doubts about my purchase, based on the updates Chris Avellone and co. are giving us. 

That said, the biggest issue has more to do with the eventual bubble bursting; if these projects aren't successful, then Kickstarters as a whole will flounder. The real interesting thing to me is whether or not interest in this secondary market can survive if projects begin to fail or never be published, which we are seeing an inkling of so far anyway. 

Now keep in mind failure and success vary. Technically speaking the games are successes because they got funded. But does that translate to more games being made? InXile announced they are doing a "spiritual successor" to Planescape Torment (using a setting that has nothing to do with Planescape Torment of course,so that is technically PR speak that is piggybacking on the Planescape name, like Dragon Age was to Baldurs Gate)  and are planning a kickstarter for it. They should wait until Wasteland 2 is released first, because if one or the other is affected by this, it will be bad long term for their projects. 

But I digress, that is how I see it at least. 

[Kidd]

Commander Kurt wrote...

It is really interesting about Kickstarter. I actually do have a MBA in marketing and I really look forward to seeing the results of the fans effectively turning into investors. I suspect much of the rage and entitlement we see in the gaming industry stems from this model of developers keeping fans in the loop during planning and production and maintaining an unusually strong connection with the consumers. It's pretty much unheard of in other industries, even within the entertainment segment, and I wonder if demands and expectations will rise or fall when involving the fans even further.

Exciting times, for sure.

From what I can tell from seeing a disappointing end to a Kickstarter project (not game-related though), it's definitely not pretty.

[Renmiri1]

I for one welcome the silence. After all the gabbing Casey Hudson did about ME3 and none of it came true, I really don't want to hear any more baseless hype.

[LinksOcarina]

The gaming public has gotten sensitive to hype as of late...

Even the PS4 hype is dying down and people are questioning things way too much...let the damn system come out first and see what happens...

[Fast Jimmy]

Commander Kurt wrote...

Jimmy, I do get where you're coming from but I still feel that it isn't really feasible. I just can't imagine that it's ever as clear cut as "We're choosing between A and B, pick one", or "you didn't like X, so what do you think about Y?". Fact is, we're not developers. We don't really know the full cost of implementing Y, and for the dev's to educate us to the point of us being able to make any sort of useful comment, they'd have to charge us for the uni degree AND disclose the whole game.

It is really interesting about Kickstarter. I actually do have a MBA in marketing and I really look forward to seeing the results of the fans effectively turning into investors. I suspect much of the rage and entitlement we see in the gaming industry stems from this model of developers keeping fans in the loop during planning and production and maintaining an unusually strong connection with the consumers. It's pretty much unheard of in other industries, even within the entertainment segment, and I wonder if demands and expectations will rise or fall when involving the fans even further.

Exciting times, for sure.

See, I disagree about this not happening in other mediums. In software development (which video game development is a type of, it simply has an entertainment correspondent integrated into it), features are explained in great detail before an application is rolled out. In addition, end user testing is done almost regularly to make sure that it is prodcuing results that are in line with expectations/demands. 

The problem comes in when the entertainment section of the product is considered and Bioware doesn't want anything about the game "leaked." So they have all the need of end user testing like software development, but all the secrecy and hype-building like a movie release. It makes for a very difficult environment to balance things out, but I don't think that it is impossible to float out broad, general "here's the mechanic we're thinking about and how we would implement it roughly - does that sound like something you'd enjoy?" types of inquiries that also don't ruin or spoil anything about the story aspect of the game.

I also have the exact opposite outlook of Kickstarter games. The more sucessful Kickstarters have great communication with their fanbases and are very upfront with the style and feel of the game they are angling for. 

Don't like IE type RPG games? Then Obsidian made it pretty clear you probably don't want to invest in Project Eternity. Don't like games where you can't run around, shooting everything all willy nillylike its Wolfenstein 3D? Then you probably don't want to invest in Wasteland 2. 

I don't think that every single fan who paid money is going to be 100% satisfied with the end product, but I don't think it will be from lack of knowledge or from a feeling that the developer wasn't listening (at least not for the big ticket, popular games). If a hack in his basement tries to do the same thing and can't even make a game before the money is all gone? Sure, that's one thing. But just like any investing - you have to do your homework. And just like regular investing, if you're money gets wasted on something that doesn't pay out for you, that's on you as the investor. 

I see far more positives than negatives with Kickstarter. And the number one positive to me is the idea that people who paid money for the game to be made are also the ones with the biggest stake in if the game is enjoyable. The fact that the developers should and are listening to them (althoguh not bending to every whim, of course) is much more promising to me than many of the big blockbuster games that ignore fan requests in favor of certain policies or business decisions at the corporate level.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 21 février 2013 - 11:08 .

[nightscrawl]

Blair Brown wrote...

That's the double edged sword of kickstarting games, because you could make a VERY valid argument that the fans actually do have the right to tell a developer what to do.  It's their money that is directly funding the game.  And investors expect returns on their investments.

You could use the same argument for elected officials though. We elect people to represent us in government, and are supposed to vote for the person we think will do the best job of that. "The people in my district/state/province want this." Yes, people can call their congressperson to let them know what they think on a given subject, but the public does not vote on every bill that gets stuffed in the box, nor should they, simply because they pay taxes.

People invest in a Kickstarter because they believe in the developer's stated vision for the product, and any promises that were made by said developer. That doesn't mean that the contributor gets to dictate every aspect of the game. As you all are fond of pointing out, for the most part we as fans really have no concept of game development, and our opinions and suggestions are so varied as to make implementation of everyone's desires impossible.

Unless the developer has outright lied about this or that feature, any donator to a Kickstarter who responds with indignation that the game isn't exactly how they want it is wrong.


I'm way too cynical and suspicious to fund a Kickstarter. I'm curious as to how many of these touted projects are going to turn into vaporware.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 21 février 2013 - 11:11 .

[Fast Jimmy]

nightscrawl wrote...

Blair Brown wrote...

That's the double edged sword of kickstarting games, because you could make a VERY valid argument that the fans actually do have the right to tell a developer what to do.  It's their money that is directly funding the game.  And investors expect returns on their investments.

You could use the same argument for elected officials though. We elect people to represent us in government, and are supposed to vote for the person we think will do the best job of that. "The people in my district/state/province want this." Yes, people can call their congressperson to let them know what they think on a given subject, but the public does not vote on every bill that gets stuffed in the box, nor should they, simply because they pay taxes.

People invest in a Kickstarter because they believe in the developer's stated vision for the product, and any promises that were made by said developer. That doesn't mean that the contributor gets to dictate every aspect of the game. As you all are fond of pointing out, for the most part we as fans really have no concept of game development, and our opinions and suggestions are so varied as to make implementation of everyone's desires impossible.

Unless the developer has outright lied about this or that feature, any donator to a Kickstarter who responds with indignation that the game isn't exactly how they want it is wrong.

I'm not sure they are WRONG, per se. But they should have no legal recourse. Again, using the same concepts as investing... if you buy stock in a publcly traded company and it goes belly up, you can't say "this company lied to me! I didn't want to go broke, I wanted to be rich!"

[Nefla]

I think the silence is pretty smart, we wont be getting any statements about awesome buttons or ABC endings or wildly branching narratives.

[nightscrawl]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

I'm not sure they are WRONG, per se.

I meant morally wrong.

[Fast Jimmy]

nightscrawl wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

I'm not sure they are WRONG, per se.

I meant morally wrong.

Aren't we ALL morally wrong? In some sense? 

[Fast Jimmy]

nightscrawl wrote...

n7stormrunner wrote...

you could also try brooding it is not as fun, but it can be done any where at anytime...

I've heard from a very reliable source that brooding is a sport in Tevinter.

Semi-confirmed rumor about DA3.

[LinksOcarina]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

nightscrawl wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

I'm not sure they are WRONG, per se.

I meant morally wrong.

Aren't we ALL morally wrong? In some sense? 

Some more than others Jim. Some more than others. 

[Fast Jimmy]

Renmiri1 wrote...

Banner saga is pretty fun

Reading this, I freaked out and checked out Kickstarter, thinking there had been some huge breakthrough on Banner Saga.

Still slated to come out later this year. Dreams... crushed... dying... inside...

[legbamel]

At this point, the rumor mill is putting plenty of baseless (and generally pointless) speculation about, getting the DA:I name out there without BioWare having to say a word. I'd say their marketing is going pretty well.

That said, I have SWTOR to occupy me for a good long while, yet. I'm still dying for DA info but at least I have another BioWare set of stories to keep my busy in the meantime.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Reading this, I freaked out and checked out Kickstarter, thinking there had been some huge breakthrough on Banner Saga.

Still slated to come out later this year. Dreams... crushed... dying... inside...

The multiplayer game is available to backers now.

I have no interest in a multiplayer game.  I didn't intend to fund a multiplayer game.

[Fast Jimmy]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Reading this, I freaked out and checked out Kickstarter, thinking there had been some huge breakthrough on Banner Saga.

Still slated to come out later this year. Dreams... crushed... dying... inside...

The multiplayer game is available to backers now.

I have no interest in a multiplayer game.  I didn't intend to fund a multiplayer game.

Yeah, I saw that. I may give it a shot to see if it offers any insight into how some of the SP mechanics work, but I'm definitely not as excited as I would be if the SP had been just released without me picking up on it.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Blair Brown wrote...

That's the double edged sword of kickstarting games, because you could make a VERY valid argument that the fans actually do have the right to tell a developer what to do.  It's their money that is directly funding the game.  And investors expect returns on their investments.

I completely disagree.  The funders made a decision to fund the game.  Unless they were told they would have control, they shouldn't expect it.

During the Project Eternity Kickstarter, I made it clear to Obsidian that I would double my pledge if they announced a specific feature.  They didn't announce it (and have since made it clear they have no interest in including it), so I didn't double my pledge.

Funders have reason to be annoyed if he developers don't deliver what they promosed, or if they develop something other than what was funded.  But in my case, I can't say that about Project Eternity.  They told me I couldn't have my feature.  So I'm not getting it.

...

Looks like Wasteland 2 has it, though.

[Bowhunter4L]

Or they could be waiting till the second of the two next-gen console to be announced. Since Bioware is a third party game developer the higher ups made the decision to hold off till both consoles have been announced.

[MrCrabby]

To be fair they have announced details, and coincidentally they were all the things fans specifically said they didn't want. We get the return of the dialogue wheel, one single race and no origins.
But of course they are taking feedback into consideration <_<

I suspect the reason was to get all the negativity and upsettiness out of the way and than move on to the rest of the game, which will of course be a larger version of Dragon Age 2.