532 réponses à ce sujet

[Sable Rhapsody]

MrCrabby wrote...

To be fair they have announced details, and coincidentally they were all the things fans specifically said they didn't want. We get the return of the dialogue wheel, one single race and no origins.
But of course they are taking feedback into consideration <_<

This again?  Fans who post on the forums are not the majority of BioWare's customers.  We're a dedicated and often obnoxiously loud and opinionated minority.  And "feedback" is more like telemetry than anything else, an aggregate of lots of different opinions and experiences.  It's not homogeneous, and it's not individualized either.

[tishyw]

With the final ME3 DLC's coming out in the next week or two, I would think that Bioware will start ramping up the marketing for DA:I shortly after that. Completely finish one game and start marketing the next.

[Vaeliorin]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...
Reading this, I freaked out and checked out Kickstarter, thinking there had been some huge breakthrough on Banner Saga.

Still slated to come out later this year. Dreams... crushed... dying... inside...

The multiplayer game is available to backers now.

I have no interest in a multiplayer game.  I didn't intend to fund a multiplayer game.

Yeah, I saw that. I may give it a shot to see if it offers any insight into how some of the SP mechanics work, but I'm definitely not as excited as I would be if the SP had been just released without me picking up on it.

I played it once...I won.  That was a while ago.  I'm kind of interested to mess around with it once they get the ability to play against the AI available.  But as a multi-player game, yeah, not so interested.  I'd probably be pretty upset if I'd invested a large amount into it.

As to the media silence in regards to DA3, I'm fine with it.  While I loved the discussions we used to have on the DA boards years before the game was released, the fan base has changed and grown so much that it's no longer realistic to have something like that.  It doesn't seem like Bioware is that interested in fan feedback now, anyway (or at least it feels that way...it may not have changed at all, but back then when we talked about what we wanted for the game, it felt like there was an actual possilbility it might be included, where I don't really feel like that's true now.)

[Realmzmaster]

I have no problem with the media silence on DA:I. I prefer it that way. Far better to show than say. I remember when DA:O was announced in 2004 and then almost nothing until 2009. I am sure once the reveal happens the marketing machine will ramp up and information will flow. The BSN will have something to talk, praise and complain about.

[Eragondragonrider]

I am sure there will be something at E3 about this game hopefully BW will make it a launch window title for next gen console. Not buying next gen console until I know that it won't be collecting dust for 2 yrs like my PS3 did before any games came out.

[The Teyrn of Whatever]

scyphozoa wrote...

David Gaider wrote...
Fans are not, however, part of the development process.

I agree, mostly. I think Devs should make the content. But I think Bioware should bring in a small team of core Bioware fans for focus testing.

Oh no, I could see that going really badly, especially if they're in the same room most of the time or during meetings with devs.

First of all, what makes a core fan? Someone who buys all the games at full price plus owns most of the merchandise, for example? The Royal Customer? I think your choice of certain words are loaded and difficult to define.

We're a broken base when it comes to many issues related to BioWare and its games, divided radically even in our opinions of certain BioWare employees. We are also an unpleasable fanbase even at the best of times.

How much would BioWare have to listen to this "small team of core BioWare fans"? Can you imagine the butthurt that would be unleashed when a dev shoots down a suggestion that one of these geeks feels really strongly about? No. I think this is a terrible idea. BioWare picking through posts and threads on the BSN is already quite enough. With Dragon Age, at this point they should stick to their guns with regards to what they already think works and not try to please the fans, especially the ones with frankly stupid requests like "I want an option that toggles all things homosexual off." or "Can we shut off romances in the option menu please?" <_<

Modifié par The Teryn of Whatever, 22 février 2013 - 02:44 .

[Firky]

I'm sure I remember reading abut Ubisoft doing that before Might and Magic Heroes VI; inviting fans for focus tests and gathering playtesting feedback or something.

But, I have no idea how extensive it was or anything. A quick google doesn't turn much up.

I think it was like a "VIP visit" kind of thing. (I don't think I've imagined this, but no promises. )

[The Teyrn of Whatever]

Eragondragonrider wrote...

I am sure there will be something at E3 about this game hopefully BW will make it a launch window title for next gen console. Not buying next gen console until I know that it won't be collecting dust for 2 yrs like my PS3 did before any games came out.

There is the fear of a barren gaming wasteland and dust collection that's holding me back from being too eager to buy a next gen console when they first come out. There's also the possibility of manufacturing defects, like with the first wave of 360s. I held on to my PS2 and got the most out of it until two years after the 360 was out before upgrading to what was at the time, the next generation (PS3 remained high-priced for way too long).

[The Teyrn of Whatever]

Firky wrote...

I'm sure I remember reading abut Ubisoft doing that before Might and Magic Heroes VI; inviting fans for focus tests and gathering playtesting feedback or something.

But, I have no idea how extensive it was or anything. A quick google doesn't turn much up.

I think it was like a "VIP visit" kind of thing. (I don't think I've imagined this, but no promises. )

Okay, a VIP visit might not be a terrible idea, but hiring a staff of fan consultants to focus test is. Focus testing has sometimes, at least with Hollywood movies, resulted in lame executive decisions being made, like changing an ending to make it "safer for mainstream audiences" based on the fact that a bunch of focus testing viewers didn't like a quirky or downbeat ending ("I Am Legend" I am glaring at you).

[slimgrin]

Hanz54321 wrote...

EA and BioWare are doing this right: don't say **** until the shipping date is etched in granite.

From a marketing standpoint, that might be too late. But Bioware's fanbase is much bigger than CDPR's. They don't need to market as extensively imo.

[Firky]

The Teryn of Whatever wrote...

Firky wrote...

I'm sure I remember reading abut Ubisoft doing that before Might and Magic Heroes VI; inviting fans for focus tests and gathering playtesting feedback or something.

But, I have no idea how extensive it was or anything. A quick google doesn't turn much up.

I think it was like a "VIP visit" kind of thing. (I don't think I've imagined this, but no promises. )

Okay, a VIP visit might not be a terrible idea, but hiring a staff of fan consultants to focus test is. Focus testing has sometimes, at least with Hollywood movies, resulted in lame executive decisions being made, like changing an ending to make it "safer for mainstream audiences" based on the fact that a bunch of focus testing viewers didn't like a quirky or downbeat ending ("I Am Legend" I am glaring at you).

Actually, I might have been thinking of this. http://might-and-mag...ct=tcm:6-231-32

I seem to remember the people involved being fairly active on their forum around release. (But, I wasn't paying a *large* amount of attention.)

[MrCrabby]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

MrCrabby wrote...

To be fair they have announced details, and coincidentally they were all the things fans specifically said they didn't want. We get the return of the dialogue wheel, one single race and no origins.
But of course they are taking feedback into consideration <_<

This again?  Fans who post on the forums are not the majority of BioWare's customers.  We're a dedicated and often obnoxiously loud and opinionated minority.  And "feedback" is more like telemetry than anything else, an aggregate of lots of different opinions and experiences.  It's not homogeneous, and it's not individualized either.

I don't recall saying this forum was the majority, however I can read sales numbers. I can also gauge the feelings of a wide variety of people by reading forums such as here, Kotaku, 4chan, IGN and so on. I'm sure there are indeed some people who like Dragon Age 2, just like there are some people who like Manos: Hands of Fate. They are however a minority.

My answer was not to bash the design choices on the game but merely to speculate on why they released those tidbits and are keeping silent otherwise.

[H. Birdman]

David Gaider wrote...

SilverMoonDragon wrote...
It's the calm before the storm....yes it is painful to wait for DA3 info , but once those flood gates open, once the pressure cooker bursts...us fans will be squeeing and discussing all the delicious info until the game comes out, it's gonna be AWESOME! And worth waiting for 

Hopefully. What typically happens is that fans are starved for information and complain (I won't even mention the years-long period that was the dry spell prior to DAO's reveal) and then, when the reveal occurs and the marketing machine kicks into overdrive, they instead pay attention to every piece of information that's released and complain that they've already heard about it.

Such is the Circle of Life in these parts, I think.

Interesting how one can bemoan the negativity of this board, then come here and use an unambiguously positive post as an opportunity to deride "fans" generally. 

[Brockololly]

nightscrawl wrote...
 I'm curious as to how many of these touted projects are going to turn into vaporware.

I really doubt any of the big ones like Double Fine or Wasteland or Project Eternity or Star Citizen will turn into vaporware. And for all the people boohooing Kickstarter as not having produced anything, thats just straight up wrong: FTL and Chivalry: Medieval Warfare are just 2 examples of really, really great games that have come out as a result of Kickstarter.

slimgrin wrote...
From a marketing standpoint, that might be too late. But Bioware's fanbase  is much bigger than CDPR's. They don't need to market as extensively  imo.

That's true but coming off of how divisive DA2 was and the whole ME3 ending thing, people might need to sold on BioWare a little more than in the past. I don't think DA3 will be able to bank on the BioWare name as much as their past games. And if they're truly aiming for late this year as a launch title, not showing off anything until around E3 seems like a recipe for the game to possibly be swallowed up and lost in the shuffle amidst all of the other games being announced and unveiled plus the consoles themselves. Seems pretty risky, especially coming off of DA2's mixed reception.

Modifié par Brockololly, 22 février 2013 - 03:55 .

[Korusus]

David Gaider wrote...


We have a good idea what fans want. We also get early feedback from select groups, both locally and through focus groups-- in batches of people who self-identify as "I'm a DA fan", "I'm an RPG fan but not a fan of DA specifically" or "I'm a gamer, but not one who plays RPG's regularly"-- and, beyond that, we have our QA people. They're the people who give us feedback throughout development, and have the context of knowing not only what went before but what we're doing now, in full.

This sounds awesome.  My only question is:  what changes have you guys made to this process since Dragon Age 2 to ensure that it actually works?  Because a lot of things were missed, ignored, etc. along the way in Dragon Age 2's development and I don't think we've ever gotten any insight as to how/why those calls were missed.  Not your fault, you're a writer and I love you for it.  But if there were one thing I wish the higher-ups at BioWare would understand it's...don't drink your own kool-aid.

[Fast Jimmy]

Korusus wrote...

David Gaider wrote...


We have a good idea what fans want. We also get early feedback from select groups, both locally and through focus groups-- in batches of people who self-identify as "I'm a DA fan", "I'm an RPG fan but not a fan of DA specifically" or "I'm a gamer, but not one who plays RPG's regularly"-- and, beyond that, we have our QA people. They're the people who give us feedback throughout development, and have the context of knowing not only what went before but what we're doing now, in full.

This sounds awesome.  My only question is:  what changes have you guys made to this process since Dragon Age 2 to ensure that it actually works?  Because a lot of things were missed, ignored, etc. along the way in Dragon Age 2's development and I don't think we've ever gotten any insight as to how/why those calls were missed.  Not your fault, you're a writer and I love you for it.  But if there were one thing I wish the higher-ups at BioWare would understand it's...don't drink your own kool-aid.

Not to beat the dead horse I beat mercilessly today already, but the answer would be... the same rough process that they had for DA2. Taking prior game feedback, the use of playtesters of differing gaming backgrounds to view portions of the game and the QA team.

Maybe those processes themselves have been further refined or developed more... we don't know. And likely won't know until far after the game is released, when Bioware is in interviews either telling the secrets to their success or trying to explain how certain things went wrong, depending on how the game is received. But it doesn't sound like (from the limited information we have) that Bioware is doing anything new in terms of validating that the game they are working on doesn't have any faults in the holistic consumption of the entire game than they had before.

I'd be 100% open to challenge on that, but from what little we know, that is the only conclusion that we can draw from such a question.

[Korusus]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Korusus wrote...

David Gaider wrote...


We have a good idea what fans want. We also get early feedback from select groups, both locally and through focus groups-- in batches of people who self-identify as "I'm a DA fan", "I'm an RPG fan but not a fan of DA specifically" or "I'm a gamer, but not one who plays RPG's regularly"-- and, beyond that, we have our QA people. They're the people who give us feedback throughout development, and have the context of knowing not only what went before but what we're doing now, in full.

This sounds awesome.  My only question is:  what changes have you guys made to this process since Dragon Age 2 to ensure that it actually works?  Because a lot of things were missed, ignored, etc. along the way in Dragon Age 2's development and I don't think we've ever gotten any insight as to how/why those calls were missed.  Not your fault, you're a writer and I love you for it.  But if there were one thing I wish the higher-ups at BioWare would understand it's...don't drink your own kool-aid.

Not to beat the dead horse I beat mercilessly today already, but the answer would be... the same rough process that they had for DA2. Taking prior game feedback, the use of playtesters of differing gaming backgrounds to view portions of the game and the QA team.

Maybe those processes themselves have been further refined or developed more... we don't know. And likely won't know until far after the game is released, when Bioware is in interviews either telling the secrets to their success or trying to explain how certain things went wrong, depending on how the game is received. But it doesn't sound like (from the limited information we have) that Bioware is doing anything new in terms of validating that the game they are working on doesn't have any faults in the holistic consumption of the entire game than they had before.

I'd be 100% open to challenge on that, but from what little we know, that is the only conclusion that we can draw from such a question.

I just have trouble wrapping my mind around BioWare's confidence in that process...surely they've made adjustments (he said naively).  Were all of the testers and QA people just really timid in their universal condemnation of wave combat and reused environments?  Where they not emphatic enough about it? Did they not make themselves heard? Where they outright ignored?  At what point in the development process did someone not stand up and say "Hey, wave combat kind of blows.  This is a bad idea.  We should go back to the drawing board on this."  

All I can think of when I imagine DA3 is "what's the next wave combat/reused environment going to be" What critical feedback is BioWare going to ignore.  

This is where public feedback comes in handy and this is where BioWare risks missing the boat (in my opinion).

[LinksOcarina]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Face of Evil wrote...

I have a bachelors in kicking ass and taking names.

What is that, a liberal arts degree?

zing!

Eh, they are not as useless as art or english is....

Then again I shouldn't talk because my years of reading history books and learning education has yielded...substitute teaching...hmm.

[spirosz]

No offence, but Bioware's PR hasn't been the strong point in recent years.

[Allan Schumacher]

I have helped fund three Kickstarter games and the boards turn nasty because the players believe they have the right to tell the developer what to do, or they get extremely upset if its not exactly like they envisioned. It will be interesting when DoubleFine Adventure and Project Eternity are finished and the reaction to the final product is from the people that invested in them, both positive and negative.

I stopped visiting the Wasteland 2 developer forums for this reason. My general gist of what I see from Project Eternity's updates is "this is neat" because they're trying to show the process (which is part of what they promised), but the discussion over whether or not it's a good idea is less productive IMO.

I remember some of the first concept releases, which were basically examples of some of the iterative process, and the overwhelming majority of the feedback was "These don't really look very good" with a lot of "Wasteland 2 had some sweet concept stuff. I want more of that sort of stuff." Which is funny, because the Wasteland 2 concept stuff being shared is more akin to marketing materials (it looks good, but doesn't show much into the game, and helps generate a marketing buzz with some oohhh ahhhh visuals). Project Eternity showed work in progress stuff (because IMO an advantage is not needing to go around with marketing materials) and in my opinion, the majority of the fan feedback was for more marketing material type of updates. They just didn't realize that they were asking for that because they weren't using those words.

What I like about kickstarter is that it's letting some developers make the game that they want to make, and I think that that is an important ingredient in making a good game. There was a lot of heated discussion over what makes an "infinity engine game" and at some point I just want Chris, Josh, and Tim to make they game that they want to make because I am confident that it'll be one I enjoy.

[Celene II]

David Gaider wrote...

Fans are not, however, part of the development process.

And I say that carefully, because of course you are-- to an extent. Feedback is invaluable, and we've been collecting it for a long time now. But if you're looking for an equal seat at the table, as in we come here and talk about what we've been thinking and asking for suggestions and so forth of the development-in-progress... no, that's not going to happen, not until the reveal occurs at the very least, as it's impossible for us to ask for feedback without also explaining what it is we're doing. No doubt we will ask for feedback after the reveal, but it will be on select things that are still up in the air. The fundamental game design is not, however, up for debate outside of the development team.

And before anyone suggests it: no, I'm not saying that's the only way it can be done. Nor is it something I have input into; I'm simply explaining how it is (and pretty much how it has always been with how BioWare works).

I really miss companies who thought fans were worth listening to through out the entire process of the game development. Interplay for example took multiple fan ideas from the forums and the very beginning of the process and they made it right into the game. Sex appeal, night owl, those perks in FO2 were direct fan contributions. What a more simple and glorious time then one we now inhabit.

[MerinTB]

Blair Brown wrote...
That's the double edged sword of kickstarting games, because you could make a VERY valid argument that the fans actually do have the right to tell a developer what to do.  It's their money that is directly funding the game.  And investors expect returns on their investments.

Here's the major mistake you are making.

They are not investors.

You don't invest via Kickstarter.

You pledge.  You donate.

Like to NPR.

People who donate to NPR, or to a telethon, don't expect to have any say except the one they get by donating - i.e. "I support this."

Everytime someone says that donating via Kickstarter means investing I just have to smile and shake my head.  You don't get it.  And while it may be a common misconception, it's a misconception nonetheless.  Because many people are wrong doesn't suddenly make them right.

http://www.kickstart... basics?ref=nav - "Why do people back projects? A lot of backers are rallying around their friends' projects. Some are supporting people they've long admired. Many are just inspired by a new idea. Others are inspired by a project's rewards — a copy of what's being made, a limited edition, or a custom experience related to the project.Backing a project is more than just giving someone money, it's supporting their dream to create something that they want to see exist in the world."

(...)

"Do backers get ownership or equity in the projects they fund?
No. Project creators keep 100% ownership of their work. Kickstarter cannot be used to offer financial returns or equity, or to solicit loans. Some projects that are funded on Kickstarter may go on to make money, but backers are supporting projects to help them come to life, not financially profit."

Or read this whole article about Kickstarter that really digs down into the concept - http://www.nytimes.c...&pagewanted=all

Every single person who thinks that they are investing in projects as opposed to donating to projects needs to think twice about giving that pledge.

And everyone who treats Kickstarter projects as if they are just moving the Producer/Publisher control from the hands of a few to the hands of the masses needs to have a cognitive readjustment.

Kickstarter is about REMOVING that control from the creative project.

Let's stop this "investor" nonsense.

Now, it IS true that many project leaders, like Fargo at inXile or Weisman at Harebrained Schemes, are actively soliciting feedback from their backers.  Or Zicree and those involved with Space Command are not only letting backers vote on some casting, but audition for parts as well.  But that is their design choice, not any kind of implicit rule that pledging gives you power over the project.  Your power begins and ends when your donation is charged - any further say you have is at the whim of the creators.

Modifié par MerinTB, 22 février 2013 - 05:34 .

[Allan Schumacher]

I really miss companies who thought fans were worth listening to through out the entire process of the game development. Interplay for example took multiple fan ideas from the forums and the very beginning of the process and they made it right into the game. Sex appeal, night owl, those perks in FO2 were direct fan contributions. What a more simple and glorious time then one we now inhabit.

I have literally passed on more than a mere handful of ideas I have read on this very forum to the point where I am probably annoying Mike with spam.